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Batterypowered7 posted:* glances nervously at a 5C Enchantress list with a bunch of pillowfort poo poo in it * Y-yeah, gently caress those guys. Listen, as long as you have win cons and actually try to win, then fine. But your pillowfort is probably downright aggro compared to whatever disgusting, unholy poo poo Sheldon's playgroup does with pillowforts.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:13
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Railing Kill posted:Listen, as long as you have win cons and actually try to win, then fine. But your pillowfort is probably downright aggro compared to whatever disgusting, unholy getting everyone to scoop in disgust is a type of win con
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Jan 17, 2022 19:14
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Grevlek posted:getting everyone to scoop in disgust is a type of win con Please do not encourage Tergrid players
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Jan 17, 2022 19:19
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The Shortest Path posted:Please do not encourage Tergrid players actually do not like Tergrid as a commander, as litigated several pages ago I think that's the only deck I'd actually ask someone to play something else or I'd excuse myself from the pod.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:22
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Sheldon talks poo poo about competitive mindsets but locked a table out with Teferi, Mage of Zalfir and Possibility Storm one time I was playing against him. I called him out on it at a later date, when he was talking poo poo again about "unfun playing patterns" and he said he ended up taking that card combination out of his deck. Like gee, thanks for having your bit of fun first and then "self correcting" so you can appear to have some sort of moral high ground.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:23
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Batterypowered7 posted:Gonna put in Guile too? That seems a little too oppressive, I just want to darken the skies with hordes of 20/20 birds.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:32
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Shivam’s response is the kind of poo poo that makes me want to pull my hair out tbh https://twitter.com/ghirapurigears/status/1483124286126575617?s=21 Like, this is the exact frame of mind me and Karma and Fram and Aranan all approach our games together. When we play, it’s because we have come together in agreement of all these principles that Shivam is arbitrarily assigning to the word he likes more. This isn’t a mode of Casual or Competitive play, this is literally just the terminus of a healthy playgroup with an effective understanding of Rule 0. The Casual vs Competitive discussion is fundamentally a discussion of power level, not of mindset, IMO, because even Competitive games can be social hang outs and even the most casual of playgroups can have white-knuckled 4 hour slug feats to determine the ultimate monarch of reality. Because, and this is the point I really wish every Content Creator would just loving grok, is that we’re all just Commander players, it’s one game and there’s only one format and we’re all playing the same game. Pushing and pulling on the foundation to further the divide between two groups of people who ostensibly all want the same thing is bad and content creators who spend time in the casual vs competitive space are just courting drama for clicks.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:34
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Bust Rodd posted:Shivam’s response is the kind of poo poo that makes me want to pull my hair out tbh All these people have just had one experience at a table where someone won with his three card combo on turn four after everyone just got done casting their Cultivates and their Circuitous Routes (depending on turn order) so now it's Battle Cruiser vs anything north of "my deck is a 5" until the heat death of the universe.
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Jan 17, 2022 19:50
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Bust Rodd posted:Shivam’s response is the kind of poo poo that makes me want to pull my hair out tbh Yeah this. "Casual" means "I have a set of rules in my head about what behaviors and cards are acceptable, and I won't tell you what they are, but if you break the rules I will ball up my tiny fists and emit a high-pitched squeal, all the while implying that it's your fault."
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Jan 17, 2022 20:04
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The thing I saw that resonated with me is "Playing at a particular level or style isn’t a negative. An individual insisting that everyone else adapt to their style is what becomes problematic," and directly calling out the fun police. I don't know what his 'true intentions' are or whatever, but telling people to chill out and have fun slinging cards (even if the game doesn't go as planned because someone cast Armageddon) is good.
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Jan 17, 2022 20:12
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Sheldon posted:Accepting that all styles of play are valid only goes so far in what we want to accomplish, which is to be the best social format around. We can recognize the former while still understanding where some source of friction arises. The big takeaway is that we can’t ban our way out of trouble. Social problems require social solutions. Jesus... I'm not sure who said it first, but the stench of "if your game needs a lot of houserules to make it work, it's a badly designed game" is all over this article
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Jan 17, 2022 20:12
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Infinite Karma posted:The thing I saw that resonated with me is "Playing at a particular level or style isn’t a negative. An individual insisting that everyone else adapt to their style is what becomes problematic," and directly calling out the fun police. I don't know what his 'true intentions' are or whatever, but telling people to chill out and have fun slinging cards (even if the game doesn't go as planned because someone cast Armageddon) is good. This would resonate with me if it wasn't coming straight out of the Fun Police's mouth. All Sheldon does is tell people how to play, or that playing too fast or too competitively is wrong. It's disingenuous as hell.
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Jan 17, 2022 20:18
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Bust Rodd posted:Shivam’s response is the kind of poo poo that makes me want to pull my hair out tbh For real. I don't think we've ever had to agonize over anything in our group beyond just trying to bring as interesting and fun of an experience as we can for ourselves and everyone else. Just because our idea of that is busting our skulls together with 10s on the power level does not invalidate the fact that just because the c in cEDH means competitive, it doesn't mean we're not still playing a casual game. We're doing everything for the sake of fun. The coolest part of cEDH is that the c does a LOT of the rule 0 conversation for us, as it establishes a power level (anything goes within banlist rules, but with an expectation of bringing your A game), a philosophy (optimization over novelty), and a mindset (don't hold back, don't be a sore loser or a sore winner, but do be open to conversation on how your deck and gameplay can be improved). But that doesn't change the fact that we can enjoy these games as "beer and pretzels" games just as casually as any other player of any other power level even if our games aren't 4 hour long standoffs where everyone's too afraid to step on anyone else's good time. Framboise fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 17, 2022 |
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Jan 17, 2022 20:22
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The game works fine. Good even! There’s a reason it’s the most popular and fastest growing format in a 30 year old card game, because Commander is extremely fun as both a game and a hobby. The game is not the problem. I’m not even sure what the problem would even be if one existed. The issue, to me, seems entirely constructed by YouTube & Twitter personalities who remember what Commander was 6 years ago and don’t understand why people who just started playing 2 years ago would prefer to run Arcane Signet over Darksteel Ingot.
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Jan 17, 2022 20:23
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Obviously every game of Commander is supposed to take five hours and go for 20+ turns, otherwise you’re not doing it right.
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Jan 17, 2022 20:29
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TotalHell posted:Obviously every game of Commander is supposed to take five hours and go for 20+ turns, otherwise you’re not doing it right. Sheldon, you're a goon?! E: I always felt like Sheldon just wants everyone to goldfish at each other until someone wins. Batterypowered7 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 17, 2022 |
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Jan 17, 2022 20:38
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The c in cEDH stands for chill.
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Jan 17, 2022 20:46
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Aranan posted:The c in cEDH stands for chill. I don't think my wife would appreciate me going out for some EDH and Chill.
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Jan 17, 2022 21:15
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Batterypowered7 posted:I don't think my wife would appreciate me going out for some EDH and Chill. Find a new partner. 
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Jan 17, 2022 21:28
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 what even are words anymore
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Jan 17, 2022 21:33
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cEDH is casual, that settles it then. I never want to hear anyone complain about it being too competitive ever again. 
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Jan 17, 2022 21:37
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 WTF is this tweet? Social =\= casual. God drat
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Jan 17, 2022 21:53
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Me, sitting at VTES nationals in 2006: "Yes. This is casual. Look at us, there are five players at the table. Casual as hell."
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Jan 17, 2022 21:56
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Railing Kill posted:Me, sitting at VTES nationals in 2006: "Yes. This is casual. Look at us, there are five players at the table. Casual as hell." Stealth/Bleed is always casual.
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Jan 17, 2022 22:10
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Railing Kill posted:Me, sitting at VTES nationals in 2006: "Yes. This is casual. Look at us, there are five players at the table. Casual as hell." The big difference here is that VTES was designed from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. There's no bullshit about pretending be the least threat at the table until you can bust out your combo.
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Jan 17, 2022 22:16
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Gynovore posted:The big difference here is that VTES was designed from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. There's no bullshit about pretending be the least threat at the table until you can bust out your combo. There absolutely is. You sit and bide your time and plan/wait for an opportune time to strike. In the meantime, you try to manipulate the rest of the table into doing your dirty work for you. There's way more of that in VTES than EDH because of the pace of the game. The players that jumps out first usually gets hammered. It's a multiplayer game so there's going to be table politics. My point is that the Shivam tweet that literally said EDH is casual because it is multiplayer is utter horseshit. It doesn't matter what game it is, my joke about competitive VTES notwithstanding.
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Jan 17, 2022 22:33
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I’m social/competitive, my LGS is too casual/cutthroat
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Jan 18, 2022 01:24
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Y'all are hurting my brain, and as we all know, it's preferable to win with your brain than with your cards.
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Jan 18, 2022 01:30
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Railing Kill posted:This would resonate with me if it wasn't coming straight out of the Fun Police's mouth. All Sheldon does is tell people how to play, or that playing too fast or too competitively is wrong. It's disingenuous as hell. disaster pastor posted:the two worst things about EDH (yes, finally surpassing the players themselves!) are Sheldon Menery and Gavin Verhey.
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Jan 18, 2022 01:39
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Railing Kill posted:There absolutely is. You sit and bide your time and plan/wait for an opportune time to strike. In the meantime, you try to manipulate the rest of the table into doing your dirty work for you. There's way more of that in VTES than EDH because of the pace of the game. The players that jumps out first usually gets hammered. It's a multiplayer game so there's going to be table politics. My point is that the Shivam tweet that literally said EDH is casual because it is multiplayer is utter horseshit. It doesn't matter what game it is, my joke about competitive VTES notwithstanding. I'm not sure how it is at the competitive level but that totally wasn't the case when I was playing. People pretty much just pounded on their prey and tried to survive. I remember pulling off a combo once that got me something like 20 pool and everyone else just went 'eh'.
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Jan 18, 2022 02:07
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Railing Kill posted:My point is that the Shivam tweet that literally said EDH is casual because it is multiplayer is utter horseshit. It doesn't matter what game it is, my joke about competitive VTES notwithstanding. I loved Warp World in Standard and ran it at FNM constantly. If I was playing Brawl or something where at worst, I wasted 10 minutes of 1 person's time because I durdeled too hard, I would play the poo poo out of Warp World. I love it. When I have 3 people waiting on my clock and 120 life to chew through, I will never play Warp World because I'd feel honestly bad if I didn't get there in a reasonable fashion and spoiled everyone's time. Being a multiplayer format forces me, Toshimo of The Goon Forums, to be more competitive, because I am responsible to more players and the bar for winning is much higher. Painting multiplayer as "more casual" to me illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how games work.
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Jan 18, 2022 02:14
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I figured casual meant "the stakes are low so a loss won't sting as badly" whereas competitive meant that there's something on the line (like money, or a place at a bigger tournament). So a deck built with power and consistency in mind is perceived as competitive, because it's what people imagine they would play/need to play when there are valuable rewards on the line, while the casual deck doesn't mind taking a more scenic route to victory. God, all this discussion really is pointless, isn't it? Most people just sit down and hash what they'd like to avoid playing against and then just get on with their day, don't they?
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Jan 18, 2022 02:29
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Gynovore posted:I'm not sure how it is at the competitive level but that totally wasn't the case when I was playing. People pretty much just pounded on their prey and tried to survive. VTES is less combo driven, and the meta changed as much as any CCG. There were periods where things were more linear toward ousting prey, but there were more periods that were more inclined toward optimizing play by cutting deals across the table and/or patient, opportunistic plays. Truly degenerate sneak/bleed fell out of fashion early and tournament meta post-3E was much more diverse and dependent on table politics. Toshimo posted:Painting multiplayer as "more casual" to me illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how games work. This 100%. It can't be stated enough that anyone, at any level of a game or format's development, who doesn't play to win above most other considerations literally doesn't understand how games work. Conversely, if someone gets feel bads over being on the losing end of someone trying to win then they're spoiled sore losers and my 7yo daughter has better developed sportsmanship. What I'm saying is that Sheldon is a spoiled man child and we should all be EDH anarchists.
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Jan 18, 2022 02:32
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Yeah, I think everyone has a horror story about "We don't do that here" moments. I once joined as a fourth player at the local game store with three non-regulars. After a bit of discussion that never went beyond the vague "We're just looking to have some fun" I decided to settle on my Ezuri, Claw of Progress deck, figuring a slow commander that finishes games in the red zone would be appropriate. We take our turns, and on the third turn the player to my right plays Molten Psyche, basically a wheel. I discard my hand and refill it, move to take my turn, when the same person suddenly goes "Hey! This guy discarded a Blighted Agent! He's playing infect!" At this point the other players look at me like I just took a dump on the table, and I realise that it would be pointless to point out that this is the only infect creature in my deck, that it's a late game threat at best, and that I'll rarely be able to play it and swing with it on the same turn.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:19
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I’ve never had that experience, but the closest was when I came back to magic in 2019 ish and went in for a few pick up commander games and my 100% foil Momir deck came out and they had to pause the game to inform me that my board state was like $5,000 worth of Apocalypse and Legacy pack foils and then the next week everyone was busting out their most pimpest cards to show me, asking me if I thought they were cool.  I have to admit, if someone ever approached me about a house ban lost i think I would humor it once, but I would really struggle to take the game seriously.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:24
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Watched a dude get shunned like a literal leper when he showed up to Commander night and locked a table out with Pickles Combo. Nobody would play with him for the rest of the night.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:39
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LoL that combo costs 7 mana and you need to play Brine Elemental
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Jan 18, 2022 15:41
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Bust Rodd posted:LoL that combo costs 7 mana and you need to play Brine Elemental It was a very long time ago. Probably around the time of the first precons.
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Jan 18, 2022 15:42
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Gynovore posted:The big difference here is that VTES was designed from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. There's no bullshit about pretending be the least threat at the table until you can bust out your combo. The Prey/Predator mechanic is one of the better designed I've seen in a multiplayer game. Each player has a designated set of enemies (person to the left you want to kill, person on your right wants to kill you) and they get rewarded for anyone taking out their prey. Taking out the person trying to kill me just results in their predator getting rewarded, not me. And once that person is dead, then the new person on my left is my prey. The game bakes in different priorities, and makes you weigh "optimal" attacks versus potentially rewarding your enemies. Wish I still had a playgroup for it, VTES was so much fun
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Jan 18, 2022 15:42
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Toph Bei Fong posted:The Prey/Predator mechanic is one of the better designed I've seen in a multiplayer game. Each player has a designated set of enemies (person to the left you want to kill, person on your right wants to kill you) and they get rewarded for anyone taking out their prey. Taking out the person trying to kill me just results in their predator getting rewarded, not me. And once that person is dead, then the new person on my left is my prey. The game bakes in different priorities, and makes you weigh "optimal" attacks versus potentially rewarding your enemies.   Two of the guys I play EDH with regularly are two of my old VTES pals. We'll sometimes play an EDH variant like Star Commander when we miss the interesting dynamics of the old predator/prey relationships of VTES. If I had a good way to play VTES online, I'd offer to play with you. I know there is some support for it in things like Tabletop Simulator, but it's just not something I've gotten into. I just have six tournament decks and a "VTES cube" that I designed before selling off the rest of my collection a few years back. I guess you can PM me if you want to chat about VTES. More on topic: I need ideas for a RB commander. It is my everlasting shame as someone who usually played red Sligh and suicide black back in standard and extended in the 90's that I haven't found a RB commander that clicks with me yet. I guess it doesn't need to be aggro, but that would just be a bonus. Anything interesting would do. I recently tried Strefan Maurer but found it underwhelming compared to Edgar Markov. I also tried a Kardur artifact deck that just isn't working. I might be overthinking that one and should just try it some more, but I'm also shopping for a RB commander that really pops. So, goons of the EDH thread, any recommendations?
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Jan 19, 2022 01:21
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