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More shields! More stuns! Wait, why is no one having fun?
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Jan 18, 2022 22:11
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eonwe posted:Overwatch in beta was a ton of fun. It just felt like they had no idea what made the game fun or how players wanted to play it when it came out. Also, I'm probably in the minority on this but I think adding a bunch of heroes, or at least, the types of heroes they added was a mistake. Blizzard knew what players wanted, but they got arrogant and fell back on the "you think you want this, but you don't." I remember Jeff Kaplan always responding to people on the official forums, dismissing any and every opinion anyone had, and saying that they weren't going to implement any ideas that players had for the game. So it's not too surprising to see why Overwatch has crash and burned. Overwatch 2 is definitive proof that Blizzard is being willfully ignorant of what players want to see.
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Jan 18, 2022 23:07
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eonwe posted:I wish they'd leaned more on the shooter aspect and less on the MOBA aspect. I feel that this was a fundamental issue with their design philosophy. To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with MOBA design - I play League more than any human ought to - but it was clear almost from the start that Blizzard didn't really know what kind of game they ultimately wanted to make. People like to harp on Brigitte, but the problem really goes all the way back to Reinhardt and how he drastically warped the game's design and pacing. Having frontliners that can soak up damage and use short-duration contextual abilities to increase their survivability is a MOBA staple, and it's a reasonable enough concept in an FPS, but having a frontliner that can protect their entire team until their shield breaks causes massive pacing issues. The theoretical solution to this - having skirmishers that flank on the sides to try and disrupt the formation and take out key backline members - falls apart when you've got poo poo like McCassidy's stun at the ready, not to mention the enormous amount of healing the average support could pump out. The end result is what the game inevitably turned into: a shield-shooting stalemate that got progressively worse as they added in more heroes with Reinhardt-esque shields to try and give alternatives to just playing Reinhardt, all of which heavily deemphasized the FPS element. A part of me is deeply curious as to how many internal design divisions there were post-launch. It's weirdly inexplicable that, for a game that leaned so heavily on the FPS element in its marketing, the only heroes that even remotely played ball with FPS design post-launch were, like, Ashe, Ana, and Sombra. It feels like there was a strong push from the more diehard FPS designers for the initial game who then got slowly whittled down by more senior design voices that wanted to make the game more broadly accessible and popular by pushing simpler hero designs that required none of the aiming skill of the core DPS roster.
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Jan 19, 2022 03:55
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eonwe posted:Overwatch in beta was a ton of fun. It just felt like they had no idea what made the game fun or how players wanted to play it when it came out. Also, I'm probably in the minority on this but I think adding a bunch of heroes, or at least, the types of heroes they added was a mistake. eh i think the moba aspect mostly covers the ult-centric gameplay which while awful was only one of the many problems. i think most of all their solution to volatile pacing revolving around ridiculously strong and ridiculously prevalent shields with their primary counters like bastion being nerfed into the far edge of viability made the game start to get simultaneously very dull and very stressful.
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Jan 19, 2022 04:29
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There were a lot of design red flags in OW, really. The fact that they were apparently designing the game initially around the idea of mid-match hero swapping is bafflingly stupid for reasons of gameplay (ult charge being king), mechanics (mastering a hero sufficiently takes hundreds and hundreds of games), and psychology (people want to play the champions they like in a hero shooter). The truly fantastic art direction, sound design, and engine did the loving labors of Hercules in helping to paper over the more fundamental design flaws rotting the foundation away.
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Jan 19, 2022 07:24
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I think game design needs like magic + spreadsheets, and blizzard for whatever reason has had a hard time with magic for much longer than their problems have been apparent. OW was a strange case because they made magic by accident but all the spreadsheet people only understood hotbar MMOs and their only solution for bringing the two into line was to drag one closer to the other.
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Jan 19, 2022 07:55
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My favorite part of early beta of OW was when Bastion had a 2000 damage shield, pinpoint accuracy in turret mode, and it was impossible to win defense on a cart push map because two Bastions sitting on top of a cart with multiple Reinhardt shields and a Torb turret for good measure were literally impossible to dislodge.
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Jan 19, 2022 07:58
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Did they never add anyone like the soldier who instantly shoots powerful slow projectiles?
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Jan 19, 2022 08:00
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30.5 Days posted:Did they never add anyone like the soldier who instantly shoots powerful slow projectiles? Pharah was in since beta, but the high presence of hitscan DPS like Cowboy Man and Widowmaker meant that she usually got blown out of the sky before getting to do anything.
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Jan 19, 2022 08:08
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Yeah I just feel like you can't really build a meta of a million stationary targets in TF2 because soldier just peeks around corners to bomb it
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Jan 19, 2022 09:15
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Monday Night Combat was better than OW at trying to do a similar thing (only real downside to MNC was it not being an FPS)......shame about the sequel.
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Jan 19, 2022 14:31
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Groovelord Neato posted:Monday Night Combat was better than OW at trying to do a similar thing (only real downside to MNC was it not being an FPS)......shame about the sequel. it sucked that the sequel destroyed both its own and its predecessor's playerbase. it was even closer to a MOBA than OW was but somehow managed to carry over more of the fun parts than the tedious ones.
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Jan 19, 2022 14:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:Monday Night Combat was better than OW at trying to do a similar thing (only real downside to MNC was it not being an FPS)......shame about the sequel. MNC1 was so good MNC2 was absolutely terrible Sniper in MNC1 was one of the worst iterations of sniper because if they were good there was absolutely zero counter
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Jan 19, 2022 14:45
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Aerox posted:My favorite part of early beta of OW was when Bastion had a 2000 damage shield, pinpoint accuracy in turret mode, and it was impossible to win defense on a cart push map because two Bastions sitting on top of a cart with multiple Reinhardt shields and a Torb turret for good measure were literally impossible to dislodge.  I also just love the idea of blizz having all these random assets lying around from a failed MMO and sticking them together to make a new frankengame.
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Jan 19, 2022 15:25
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jokes posted:Sniper in MNC1 was one of the worst iterations of sniper because if they were good there was absolutely zero counter Had to halve their clip size when they did the PC port because of how strong he was. Hmm having issues with sniper characters guess they're more alike than I thought.
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Jan 19, 2022 15:40
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Snipers are always a net negative in any video game they are in. The one exception is Ana from overwatch, because they’re a healer. And even then they were annoying as poo poo because Blizzard gave them a loving nap grenade. Destiny most of all. Yeah everyone loves killing people and being killed with zero recourse, and also when you get close they’re just as well-equipped as you.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:04
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Groovelord Neato posted:Had to halve their clip size when they did the PC port because of how strong he was. Hmm having issues with sniper characters guess they're more alike than I thought. Seriously, snipers in RL are a poo poo job that have you climbing through trees and pissing your pants. The best snipers would have the other side dropping enough artillery fire to level a grid square on the map. But today you have equipment that tells you the direction of fire, smoke poppers to block line of sight, and god knows what else. Games can give us counter sniper skills, they choose not to.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:44
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Overwatch is a fun game and I still enjoy it.  A lot of the comments here about shields/pacing aren't really applicable at all levels of play, but I agree they're a problem for beginners.These days if you have a team that's stacking shields, the other team (if they know what they're doing) will just change to a dive comp and gently caress up their day. Shields are useless if the enemy team is right on top of you and/or in your backline. IMO the "problem" with Overwatch is that there are so many heroes, and a player really only becomes effective when they know all of them and understand how to counter them. If you have two shield tanks on defense in low ranking matches, usually that team will win because the other team won't know how to deal with it. In higher ranking matches the other team would probably switch to dive tanks/Doomfist, or switch to some real heavy shield-break (Junkrat), or some full-team mobility to move behind the shields (Symm), and suddenly those shields become a non-issue. Heck, if the shield team isn't running any hitscan, just put up a Pharah and they'll be able to rain rockets down behind the shields completely uncontested and kill all the heals. However actually doing this requires an understanding of every single hero and every single ability, which you don't really get until you've been playing for 200+ hours (if that, probably more). And if you have one or two players on your team who don't know what they're doing and are playing a useless hero vs. the other team's comp, you're at a significant disadvantage. Platinum matches and above are fun to watch and play in because players spend entire matches reacting to the other team and switching heroes when necessary to defeat the enemy's team comp. Bronze to gold matches are a lolfest of players running into walls and forgetting they even have half their abilities. Is that a game design issue? Probably! I don't know! kedo fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 17:01
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jokes posted:Snipers are always a net negative in any video game they are in. The one exception is Ana from overwatch, because they’re a healer. And even then they were annoying as poo poo because Blizzard gave them a loving nap grenade. Not an emptyquote.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:10
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kedo posted:Overwatch is a fun game and I still enjoy it. That's strange because there have been points where the game was strangled at the pro level by certain strats that grew out of the game's poor design.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:26
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The pro Overwatch meta has mostly swung between various iterations of dive comps and shield comps depending on what's strongest. Brigitte was originally intended as a way to forcibly break the dive meta that had emerged, which then made GOATs the premier meta for a couple seasons. Again, the fact that the game's balance centers so heavily around the presence of team-protecting shields - either stacking them or completely bypassing them - is part of the core design problem, since it restricts team comps, narrows future hero design space, and deemphasizes traditional FPS elements in favor of either slow wars of attrition or big ult deathballs.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:That's strange because there have been points where the game was strangled at the pro level by certain strats that grew out of the game's poor design. Yep, Funny stuff like all tanks forcing a 2x2x2 comp and god knows what else after I stopped watching this stuff.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:44
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3 tanks, 3 healers. Riveting stuff. What a god awful game to spectate.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:50
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Yeah, they've changed a lot in the past couple of years. 2 tanks + 2 dps + 2 heals is now strictly enforced (you queue for your specific role and can't change once you're in a game), and they consistently nerf/buff various heroes depending on what's meta. All of the super obnoxious unkillable comps (which usually relied on too many tanks/healers) aren't possible in competitive play anymore. I'm not going to even try to claim that it's a game without flaws, because it's obviously not, but for a game that's as old as it is Blizz has done a fairly good job keeping things fresh. Heck, they're still releasing new maps for the game.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:14
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Having to enforce roles is bad.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:28
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Overwatch just has too many characters to try and stick to the MMO golden trinity that they are trying to establish. The tanks and the healers are necessary to win, but the best members of those roles are so utterly passive that there's a nonzero chance that if you see someone playing Mercy it's because it's part of a kink. Reinhardt is the best at his role and performing that job cripples him to anything other than pressing W. There are more fun characters in the roles, but they are inferior in their role compared to the dedicated ones. So Blizzard rebalances the passive OP characters not by making the more fun ones stronger, but to nerf them. In TF2 you had the engineer and the medic, but the medic was the only one that was really passive, and he balanced it out by being able to completely stomp the opposing side when the chance comes up. Even engineer can be a menace with his surprisingly damaging shotgun. But hats weren't enough, they had to make 2000 characters to feed the hype train until it finally derailed and twitch got bored of it. People want to play DPS, and now they are so overwhelmed with trying to force roles that you have to literally bribe your way into playing what you want by doing time in the heal mines.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:31
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I think Overwatch would be cool as a single player thing which is why I am sad that Overwatch 2 may not ever come out and even if it does will probably be a mess.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:57
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Overwatch would’ve been cool if they didn’t support professional players at all and instead made it fun to play. ESPORTS are a curse that must be lifted
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Jan 19, 2022 21:05
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Rexicon1 posted:Overwatch would’ve been cool if they didn’t support professional players at all and instead made it fun to play. But how will I enjoy my videyo game if there isn't a microscopic chance that if I put in 100x more effort than is fun to play it then I might win the equivalent of a single day's income for a rich person. Then my mom might be right, it is just a waste of time and not a growth opportunity.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:13
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Rexicon1 posted:Overwatch would’ve been cool if they didn’t support professional players at all and instead made it fun to play. Yeah esports turning into a marketing thing for any multiplayer title is the worst. Funniest example I can think of was them trying it with Evolve before it was released.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:39
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does anyone else fondly remember the SWG resource harvesting system or am I just wearing rose-tinted glasses? I don't know how truly random the spawns were, but I really liked the concept of every resource rotation being a goldrush to find and plop down harvesters on the highest intensity areas. has any other game done that?
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Jan 20, 2022 01:50
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CuddleCryptid posted:But how will I enjoy my videyo game if there isn't a microscopic chance that if I put in 100x more effort than is fun to play it then I might win the equivalent of a single day's income for a rich person. Then my mom might be right, it is just a waste of time and not a growth opportunity. The normal E-Sports players are earning $50k to $100k. Perhaps a bit more from Twitch etc. Any choice career should earn this kind of money AND last longer since players generally fall out at around 26.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:56
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PyRosflam posted:The normal E-Sports players are earning $50k to $100k. Perhaps a bit more from Twitch etc. Any choice career should earn this kind of money AND last longer since players generally fall out at around 26. Yes, that was the joke. Esports is a miserable pursuit for all involved.
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Jan 20, 2022 02:13
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cmdrk posted:does anyone else fondly remember the SWG resource harvesting system or am I just wearing rose-tinted glasses?
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Jan 20, 2022 03:32
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Paladins is better than OW, just wish it was more polished also if it had an 'all characters' DLC purchase like Smite did that would be nice
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Jan 20, 2022 03:42
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so who else here is excited to finally leave the real world and spend the rest of their days in a vr mmorpg? https://zenithmmo.com/
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Jan 20, 2022 15:08
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Kevin Bacon posted:so who else here is excited to finally leave the real world and spend the rest of their days in a vr mmorpg? Got my full feedback suit and "microwave your brain if you die in game" headset ready to go!
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Jan 20, 2022 15:46
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Kevin Bacon posted:so who else here is excited to finally leave the real world and spend the rest of their days in a vr mmorpg? Noticing that there isn't any footage on their splash page of horizontal locomotion
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Jan 20, 2022 16:06
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Yeah I like VR and a good VR MMO would probably be the death of me, but that just seems to be a generic MMO ~~only in VR~~ which is the stupidest loving way to approach it. VR fundamentally changes the way users interact with games and an MMO attempting to use that medium would have to take a similarly innovative approach, which that really doesn't seem to be doing. Also as CuddleCryptid noted the glaring lack of horizontal movement implies that they still haven't worked out a way to make it both playable and accessible which means they'll probably default to teleportation or something, and even if they make other options available, I just don't see how a mixture of teleporting anime hands and anime hands sliding around slapping in all directions or whatever could actually be the basis for anything fun
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Jan 20, 2022 16:26
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They do actually have both climbing and gliding (kinda like breath of the wild), as well as smooth locomotion. The rest of the game though, I have no idea
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Jan 20, 2022 16:35
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