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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:You're also not recognizing that the ability to even say this undermines your whole point. He can say this because he is not a significant threat; the last time US hegemony was meaningfully challenged, being sympathetic to Communism was seen as seditious behavior worthy of not only ostracization from job & society, but of active surveillance and even imprisonment. When racial supremacy was challenged, numerous black leaders were assassinated, jailed, and openly discredited. We can even see hints of this today among subjects that US interests are losing control over, like with Palestine & BDS. The reason, outside those listed examples, that freedom of speech is permitted is because: 1. It serves as a safe release-valve for tension; that which bends does not break, it's better to have citizens vent on Twitter than to let their grievances foment 2. The west has a monopoly on the global culture, and to an extent can shape these winds as desired, in turn allowing passive influence over countries that do not censor. In this sense it becomes valuable as a tool to sway public opinion towards market reforms, getting suckered into capitalism, and shaping what today's villains look like. The modern, enlightened individual can watch a drama on Chernobyl, root for a techbro's intern, then watch a superhero movie where they depose Castro. Quick thought exercise: if the nazis had won WW2, became a dominant superpower instead of the US, encircled America, and started mass-producing thinly-veiled & extremely accessible media on how great & noble nazism is, the benefits of being a german satellite state, and how great being racially pure is, would the US have as much of an open adoration for freedom of speech & proliferation of ideas? What does our history say? Would we want that? I wouldn't be surprised if we reach a point, as US influence continues to wane & as China continues to grow as a global superpower, that the tables are turned and heavy-handed moderation wanes as it becomes unnecessary. On the other hand, a lot of modern China has been defined by observing the USSR's mistakes, and the conquering of eastern europe probably has them cautious on this front. All that was to say, "liberalism vs authoritarianism" is far more defined by a culture-war over which superpower controls the global narratives, than of any real ideological foundation. A 'liberal' state will turn 'authoritarian' as it loses control over the influence and power of ideas (as seen during both Red Scares and the Civil Rights era), and an 'authoritarian' state may turn 'liberal' as it marginalizes dissenting ideals. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 15:50
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You can hold the view that despotism is fine if you want. Simply slapping Oriental in front of it doesn't make the term racist. I am amazed at how 5 pages of whataboutism is simply tolerated and even a mod engages in it. Authoritarianism is pretty simple. Everyone knows it, you guys are just trying to conflate it with capitalism, imperialism, colonialism all in an attempt to continue the derail. Does your government allow citizens the chance to exercise control of the government either through direct referendum or through elected officials? No? You live in an Authoritarian state. Does your government allow freedom of expression, especially when it comes to critiquing the government, its policies and its leaders? No? You live in an Authoritarian state. Why are those the basic measuring sticks? Because it is through those mechanisms that citizens of any given state can effect change without engaging in violent behavior. Authoritarianism can and does exist in combination with capitalism or socialism. It can occur in a regime that is Imperialistic or one with colonial tendencies. It also exists in a range. Just because there are authoritarian tendencies in a democratic state doesn't make it an authoritarian. It isn't a binary switch. Democratic states can also have oppressive laws and behaviors, especially in times of emergency but that isn't central axis of its operation. The OG point about COVID in China brings it into focus. We can clearly see the difference between China and 'The West'. China censors any negative press and social media posting about its COVID policies. That's why people have to grab stuff of Weibo before it gets scrubbed. The West tolerates noncompliance, criticism, and even fake science to circulate in social media. It tolerates maskless parades and rallies. Of you hate the measures taken you can walk to your local government center and protest. You can't even walk outside your home in lockdowned parts of China. If you don't like CCP policy, you have zero chance to remove them from power. Any attempt to organize people around you to do so will have you end up silenced or worse. Here in the West you can organize to your hearts content. You might not win against the establishment but you have the right try. That is what authoritarianism is and isn't in this precise context of China's COVID response. But we already knew this. Especially the mod that effectively greenlit this multi page derail yet probes Smeef, one of the best posters in the thread, for crass humour. Which is literally what SA was founded on.
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Jan 19, 2022 15:52
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Smeef posted:To answer your questions in the second paragraph: No, I don't see lockdowns or quarantines as necessarily authoritarian, and both have curbed the spread of Covid and saved lives, both in China and elsewhere. I think China's control of information during the pandemic probably qualifies as authoritarian, though, and has probably not been helpful. Thanks for answering See, this is where I think there is a big disagreement. Imo there really isn't any definition of "authoritarian" that I can think of that would exclude quarantines and lockdowns which effectively imprisons innocent people. Now, you can view that is a necessary evil to save lives but there's really no getting around the fact that these are coercive measures backed by state violence. Alchenar posted:I mean lets just pick three incredibly low bars indicating whether your government cares about popular consent or not: freedom of association, freedom of expression, competitive elections. Just using the united states as an example, the red scare very explicitly violated every single one of those statements. More recently, the violent police responses to BLM has proven both freedom of association and expression to be myths. Peaceful protesters were brutalized went they brought grievances to the government, which kind of speaks to the larger truth about state enshrined rights: your "freedoms" end exactly where the state decides especially when you act against the state. This isn't even starting on the historical and current state of slave labor and racism within liberal democracies
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Jan 19, 2022 15:58
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lollontee posted:i rather doubt most posters here griping about chinese successes make the difference in their brains This is a bit silly, I bet most posters ITT are vaguely in the category of sinophiles/sinaboos/whatever the term, and at least know Chinese or tried to learn it at some point.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:03
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How many BLM members have been jailed for political crimes of disturbing social harmony? Is the BLM website not up? Are BLM members being tortured and sent to work camps? We're significant parts of Portland public grounds not occupied for months on end?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:03
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MikeC posted:Authoritarianism can and does exist in combination with capitalism or socialism. It can occur in a regime that is Imperialistic or one with colonial tendencies. It also exists in a range. Just because there are authoritarian tendencies in a democratic state doesn't make it an authoritarian. It isn't a binary switch. so if democratic governments are also allowed to be authoritarian too, the term is completely irrelevant and your definitions of electoralist politics as non-authoritarian make zero sense. MikeC posted:If you don't like CCP policy, you have zero chance to remove them from power. Any attempt to organize people around you to do so will have you end up silenced or worse. Here in the West you can organize to your hearts content. You might not win against the establishment but you have the right try. you also have zero chance of removing the ruling parties of america from power, and you do get silenced or worse in western countries for organizing people around that.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:06
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MikeC posted:How many BLM members have been jailed for political crimes of disturbing social harmony? Is the BLM website not up? Are BLM members being tortured and sent to work camps? We're significant parts of Portland public grounds not occupied for months on end? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=blm+activists+murdered&ia=web
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Jan 19, 2022 16:07
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BLM members are absolutely being murdered with US government consent
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Jan 19, 2022 16:08
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Solaris 2.0 posted:If you're posting on this comedy forum and poo poo on your government you are probably not living under an explicitly authoritarian regime. i live in china and i post here, and i've criticized the chinese government. does that mean it's not authoritarian?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:10
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MikeC posted:How many BLM members have been jailed for political crimes of disturbing social harmony? Is the BLM website not up? Are BLM members being tortured and sent to work camps? We're significant parts of Portland public grounds not occupied for months on end? I’m from Portland. BLM has been directly targeted by the FBI and the Police. In Portland many were arrested on frivolous charges and others brutally beaten, suffering injuries such as broken bones and cracked skulls. Chemical weapons like tear gas and “less lethal” weapons like rubber coated bullets were also deployed. Activists were literally kidnapped by plain clothes federal agents in unmarked cars. As for “work camps”, you do realize that the US has the largest prison population in the world and uses it as slave labor, right? This includes the use of juvenile delinquents aka children in high risk roles like fighting forest fires Red and Black fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 16:11
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MikeC posted:How many BLM members have been jailed for political crimes of disturbing social harmony? Is the BLM website not up? Are BLM members being tortured and sent to work camps? We're significant parts of Portland public grounds not occupied for months on end? But I guess the BLM websites are up so it's cool. edit: Red and Black posted:As for “work camps”, you do realize that the US has the largest prison population in the world and uses it as slave labor, right? This includes the use of juvenile delinquents aka children in high risk roles like fighting forest fires (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) cat botherer fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 16:12
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Yeah, I was about to post that. Disappeared and found dead, often with the forensic evidence professionally destroyed by fire.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:13
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lollontee posted:i rather doubt most posters here griping about chinese successes make the difference in their brains I make a very deliberate distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people when I speak about China, thanks. Please consider people's actual posts before making such sweeping assumptions. Maybe make some quotes?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:32
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How are u posted:I make a very deliberate distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people when I speak about China, thanks. Please consider people's actual posts before making such sweeping assumptions. Maybe make some quotes? alright How are u posted:I agree. I've said it before in this thread and, sadly, it looks like I'll continue to be saying it: I was really hopeful for China before Xi rose to power and took this incredibly authoritarian turn. Both China and Russia should be natural partners of the US in a multi-polar world, but their authoritarian leaders are stoking nationalism and conflict to further their own personal power and it is all just such a drat shame.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:36
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lollontee posted:alright That quote isn't 'griping about Chinese successes', it is lamenting the nation's turn toward authoritarianism under Xi's leadership. I didn't say anything about the Chinese people or conflate them with the CCP. Come on, dude.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:39
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How are u posted:I make a very deliberate distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people when I speak about China, thanks. Please consider people's actual posts before making such sweeping assumptions. Maybe make some quotes? this is not intended as any kind of gotcha. im legitimately curious. how do you account for relatively high levels of support in china for the current government, and what do you think of the average chinese citizen who may be supportive of the ccp?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:40
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fart simpson posted:this is not intended as any kind of gotcha. im legitimately curious. how do you account for relatively high levels of support in china for the current government, and what do you think of the average chinese citizen who may be supportive of the ccp? If their support is so good, elections wouldn't be a problem?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:42
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fart simpson posted:this is not intended as any kind of gotcha. im legitimately curious. how do you account for relatively high levels of support in china for the current government, and what do you think of the average chinese citizen who may be supportive of the ccp? I would like to see where those metrics of 'high support' come from.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:42
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MikeC posted:If their support is so good, elections wouldn't be a problem? that doesn’t answer my question at all. want to say what you actually mean?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:43
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MikeC posted:If their support is so good, elections wouldn't be a problem? ??? What does this phrase mean?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:44
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fart simpson posted:that doesn’t answer my question at all. want to say what you actually mean? I am questioning your assertion that they enjoy high support levels by pointing out that we have no means of testing that assertion given that information is controlled and dissent against the CCP is routinely crushed. If they enjoyed such high support then they wouldn't need authoritarian measures to stay in power. They won't even risk heavily compromised elections like they do in Russia or Singapore where they atleast put on the veneer of democracy
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Jan 19, 2022 16:47
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How are u posted:I would like to see where those metrics of 'high support' come from. There have been several polling teams from American academia that have surveyed Chinese public opinion. Here’s one of them https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ quote:
I think the estimates go as low as 80% satisfaction, which is still very high
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Jan 19, 2022 16:47
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MikeC posted:I am questioning your assertion that they enjoy high support levels by pointing out that we have no means of testing that assertion given that information is controlled and dissent against the CCP is routinely crushed. so youre saying nothing can be proven to you as you will reject all evidence as propaganda
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Jan 19, 2022 16:49
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How are u posted:I would like to see where those metrics of 'high support' come from. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ quote:The survey team found that compared to public opinion patterns in the U.S., in China there was very high satisfaction with the central government. In 2016, the last year the survey was conducted, 95.5 percent of respondents were either “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with Beijing. also anecdotally, this tracks with my own experiences living in china for over a decade and talking to a number of personal contacts about politics. not that i approach that subject with everyone ofc
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Jan 19, 2022 16:49
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How are u posted:I would like to see where those metrics of 'high support' come from. There was also a recent Pew survey of Chinese citizens showing a similar results, but I can't find it. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 16:50
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Kalit posted:It sounds like you’re describing imperialism, not authoritarianism? Unless I’m misunderstanding you. I brought up Northern Ireland and I think it really is a good example of how happy the system is to use different techniques in different areas, and we'll still say it's a liberal democracy. The British government literally imprisoned people without charge for years, it tortured people, it murdered people, it shot at protestors, all on soil ostensibly belonging to it, but I think a lot of people would still say the UK was a "liberal democracy" throughout the troubles. So was it not a liberal democracy? Was it a liberal democracy in GB but not NI? MikeC posted:How many BLM members have been jailed for political crimes of disturbing social harmony? Is the BLM website not up? Are BLM members being tortured and sent to work camps? We're significant parts of Portland public grounds not occupied for months on end? I think the only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn from the actions of liberal democracies is that they are perfectly happy to engage in authoritarian behaviours when it suits them
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Jan 19, 2022 16:51
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Red and Black posted:There have been several polling teams from American academia that have surveyed Chinese public opinion. Here’s one of them Thanks for the link. I would be super-interested to see which other nations on Earth also report 95.5% of their citizens “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with the regime in power. That's absolutely wild.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:52
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How are u posted:Thanks for the link. I would be super-interested to see which other nations on Earth also report 95.5% of their citizens “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with the regime in power. That's absolutely wild.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:55
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lollontee posted:so youre saying nothing can be proven to you as you will reject all evidence as propaganda No, I am pointing out that if they actually enjoyed 95.5 percent approval, they wouldn't need to scrub Weibo or put Jimmy Lai in jail for running a newspaper that is critical to the CCP. There is significant evidence, by their very actions they perform to ensure they stay in power, to indicate that they would not necessarily win against political opposition, were it to be actually allowed. Even in form of 'rituals' in the West.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:56
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How are u posted:Thanks for the link. I would be super-interested to see which other nations on Earth also report 95.5% of their citizens “relatively satisfied” or “highly satisfied” with the regime in power. That's absolutely wild. i dont find it hard to believe. material conditions have improved massively year on year for a very long time. most people i talk to have a general sense of "even if this thing isnt good, i trust the government wont let it get too bad" which is just an observation of mine and not quantified
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Jan 19, 2022 16:56
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Red and Black posted:There have been several polling teams from American academia that have surveyed Chinese public opinion. Here’s one of them quote:Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread in China, these findings highlight that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being. Satisfaction and support must be consistently reinforced. As a result, the data point to specific areas in which citizen satisfaction could decline in today’s era of slowing economic growth and continued environmental degradation. US federal government?
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Jan 19, 2022 16:59
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fart simpson posted:i live in china and i post here, and i've criticized the chinese government. does that mean it's not authoritarian? Given your post history, you have never actually really criticized the CCP.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:00
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cat botherer posted:Their government is responsive to public opinion in a way that liberal democracies aren't. It also helps that they have been incredibly successful at improving material conditions, as well as protecting their citizens from COVID. When you're outside of the Western media bubble, things look different. relatedly, on a local small government level, i can see there is actually quite a bit of outreach to local citizens for feedback and seemingly a desire to improve things. i dont know how this is transferred up the chain necessarily. but things like the neighborhood party organization will sometimes hand out questionnaires to all residents (including me, a foreigner) asking for feedback on a number of neighborhood related things like quality of local schools, availability of good produce, cleanliness of public areas, etc. when you go to public run places like the hospital or airport sometimes workers will do the same
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Jan 19, 2022 17:00
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lollontee posted:just because capitalists sometimes fight amonst themselves doesnt mean they do not rule your world. also, what tens of millions of people are you talking about? western media is not owned by millions of people, it is owned by a few dozen. and their actions are unchecked, our rulers are indeed above the laws we have to follow I was referring to the oft-stated claim that the US is authoritarian because it's ruled by the rich. Even if you gate having the ability to meaningfully participate in democracy at the top 10% of wealth (and personally I wouldn't) that's still tens of millions of people. Compared to... one. "The capitalists" is a meaningless buzz word that you constantly redefine to include as many or as few people as suits your arguement at the time. If you are really stating that a dozen or so people that own media conglomerates are absolute rulers and hold all the political power in the US then we're in infowars territory. fart simpson posted:also anecdotally, this tracks with my own experiences living in china for over a decade and talking to a number of personal contacts about politics. not that i approach that subject with everyone ofc If you have to be careful about who you talk about politics with because of fear of reprisal from the state then that is an authoritarian state, no matter how many individual incidents of violence at protests you want to use to whatabout. We're at the point we're literally hearing "but you lynch black people". Jarmak fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 17:01
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cat botherer posted:Their government is responsive to public opinion in a way that liberal democracies aren't. well they're certainly responsive when high-profile members are accused of sexual assault
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Jan 19, 2022 17:03
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MikeC posted:
Which I'd those actions are unique to China and do not exist in states with "competitive elections"? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 19, 2022 17:06
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the idea that a regime that so heavily censors and represses speech is "more responsive" to the will of the people is so utterly laughable it makes me sick. Yeah, it sure is easy to be responsive to public opinion when you have near-complete control over what opinions can be said publicly!
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Jan 19, 2022 17:07
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Jarmak posted:I was referring to the oft-stated claim that the US is authoritarian because it's ruled by the rich. Even if you gate having the ability to meaningfully participate in democracy at the top 10% of wealth (and personally I wouldn't) that's still tens of millions of people. Compared to... one. Jarmak posted:"The capitalists" is a meaningless buzz word that you constantly redefine to include as many or as few people as suits your arguement at the time. If you are really stating that a dozen or so people that own media conglomerates are absolute rulers and hold all the political power in the US then we're in infowars territory. uhhuh, capitalists ruling america is alex jones territory
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Jan 19, 2022 17:07
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Acebuckeye13 posted:well they're certainly responsive when high-profile members are accused of sexual assault
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Jan 19, 2022 17:09
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Which I'd those actions are unique to China and do not exist in states with "competitive elections"? Found in the very post you chose to quote. Textbook example of bad faith posting.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:10
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