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Alchenar posted:You are a bad movie watcher (it's okay, your reg date suggests you probably had to take a nap or two during the film). Neil Patrick Harris has a whole part of his speech where he explains that flooding the Matrix with bots is much cheaper and more effective than having automonous agents try to exert control. I regged when I was pretty young, but time makes fools of us all. Which speech are we talking about? I'll go back and watch it.
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Jan 19, 2022 14:12
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RVT posted:I regged when I was pretty young, but time makes fools of us all. It's the one where he's stopped time at Trinity's garage and is revealing he is the bad guy (I think). It is totally inconsistent with the previous Matrix film with regards to 'are programmes people' but this is a new Matrix I guess and NPH gets to set the rules.
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Jan 19, 2022 14:27
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The Analyst even acknowledges that he pushed too far when trying to get Trinity out. "I own that mess. Shouldn't have pressed." That to me implies that even out of swarm mode, bots are controlled by him or set to a routine until needed, so not real people.
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Jan 19, 2022 14:37
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Has there ever been any sort of in-universe comment on whether programs have a "fixed" RSI like humans do? Because if not, Trinity's husband and children could just have been regular self-aware programs that maliciously pretended to be her family on the Analyst's order.
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Jan 19, 2022 15:09
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I feel like if a part of the way the matrix specifically works is ambiguous and one way it might work totally subverts the message and one of the way it works fits with the message then you should probably just assume that it works the way that works with the themes of the movie instead of some cinema sins thing
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Jan 19, 2022 16:08
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It's a sloppy slapdash movie where the director literally wanted to quit halfway through. You should take whatever message you want from it, because she didn't much care and tells you as much in the movie.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:14
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Which is true, so no matter how clearly the movie explains it people will get mad at the sins against motherhood she committed. Is anyone though? I thought it was hosed up because "burn down your old fake life, we're your family now" is cult manipulation 101. There are countless examples of real life harm caused by that toxic behaviour, but here's Resurrections portraying that as cool and good. Maybe I missed it, but nobody is saying she should raise robot kids because that's a women's duty or whatever. That feels like a gross mischaracterization of the above.
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Jan 19, 2022 16:18
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"this movie is a mess, they probably actually did mean after explaining family obligations is a way society controls women that trinity was a bad mother for leaving her kids and that the ambiguous way bots work was meant to reinforce she was a failure as a woman" Is such a wild take compared to 'oh, I guess the bot kids were some some made up lotus eater trap by the analyst"
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Jan 19, 2022 16:34
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moths posted:Is anyone though? It is exactly what you are saying. Going "it is textbook cult" ignores that keeping you with a gaslighting authority figure and children so you feel obligated is also textbook cult behavior. But because Trinity is a woman you assume that something must be weird if she escapes a bad situation and portray it as toxic. Your argument about cult behavior only works if you hold the viewpoint that there is only one type of cult or that family is innately good or healthy which, especially for a trans reading, is not always true. You can refetence Q Anon but there are plenty of other examples of people escaping harmful or toxic family situations. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 16:41
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ImpAtom posted:It is exactly what you are saying. Going "it is textbook cult" ignores that keeping you with a gaslighting authority figure and children so you feel obligated is also textbook cult behavior. But because Trinity is a woman you assume that something must be weird if she escapes a bad situation and portray it as toxic. A significant part of indoctrination is portraying your family and loved ones as gaslighting drones who don't know the real truth that is more important than their lives, though. You also have that portrayal in military and police indoctrination; The idea that nobody in the outside group will every really get it or truly get you. Since your out-group relationships are doomed anyway, they're all disposable. Exactly as shown in the film. But the pushback that she's a woman so it's misogyny is so bizarre and surface level. Yes, women escape bad situations. So do men. But everyone in your old social network is lying to you aligns perfectly with indoctrination.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:00
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moths posted:A significant part of indoctrination is portraying your family and loved ones as gaslighting drones who don't know the real truth that is more important than their lives, though. You also have that portrayal in military and police indoctrination; The idea that nobody in the outside group will every really get it or truly get you. Since your out-group relationships are doomed anyway, they're all disposable. Yeah man, if you read the movie a really stupid way for no reason at all and ignore all the parts someone turned literally to the camera and told you what stuff means and represents then the movie is pro-cults. You got it.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:03
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moths posted:A significant part of indoctrination is portraying your family and loved ones as gaslighting drones who don't know the real truth that is more important than their lives, though. You also have that portrayal in military and police indoctrination; The idea that nobody in the outside group will every really get it or truly get you. Since your out-group relationships are doomed anyway, they're all disposable. Alternately, as is loving frequent in these situations, your family is portrayed as right and good because they are your family and anyone outside of them is clearly a corrupting influence out to ruin your life. This isn't a hypothetical. It is something people deal with every day. You keep referencing Q Anon but turns out if you are a LGBTQ individual who grows up somewhere strongly religious/conservative/bigoted/etc you can in fact be in a situation where your entire social circle *is* lying to you.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:08
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Like that's obviously the intent, but the film objectively did a better job showing why I should gently caress off to Dallas to wait for JFK Jr.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:15
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This is all why it would have been a better film if we saw more of Trinity's life and the first act uncertainty for Neo about whether the events of the Matrix actually happened or whether he's suffering a breakdown was not resolved so early. The film could have had something to say about knowing whether you are experiencing healthy self actualisation or are dissasociating from reality.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:15
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moths posted:Like that's obviously the intent, but the film objectively did a better job showing why I should gently caress off to Dallas to wait for JFK Jr. Only if you ignore literally everything onscreen. Alchenar posted:This is all why it would have been a better film if we saw more of Trinity's life and the first act uncertainty for Neo about whether the events of the Matrix actually happened or whether he's suffering a breakdown was not resolved so early. The film could have had something to say about knowing whether you are experiencing healthy self actualisation or are dissasociating from reality. The first three films exist for that purpose.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:17
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It's generally not a good movie but everyone should watch the movie Vivarium for this topic because it kinda rules. Like, general summary is a young couple goes to look at a house for sale and gets stuck there for years in a weird over perfect nightmare simulation horror zone type thing of being alone in an inescapable zoo. Early on they are given a horrid baby to raise. And the movie isn't great but rules because instantly the couple is like "yeah, we don't want a lovely horror baby" and the movie does not budge on it. Like literally any other movie and the plot would be the mom coming to love the baby and the movie flirts with that idea a few times. But sticks 90% to "yeah gently caress you awful baby" and the movie isn't good but it rules to see something so discordant to how you expect storytelling to go. Like it only goes as far as showing the mom hates to literally watch him cry out in pain, but beyond that the whole movie is the mom just going "hey, gently caress you baby, you suck and I don't want you" and it's great because it feels like the movie is going to be some anti-her "actually this baby represents a disabled child" but nope, it really stuck to "gently caress you awful baby, eat your slop so you don't die, gently caress you" and it felt so rare to see a movie with a mom and a child like that that really didn't fall much into a motherhood plotline (much)
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Jan 19, 2022 17:17
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Alchenar posted:This is all why it would have been a better film if we saw more of Trinity's life and the first act uncertainty for Neo about whether the events of the Matrix actually happened or whether he's suffering a breakdown was not resolved so early. The film could have had something to say about knowing whether you are experiencing healthy self actualisation or are dissasociating from reality. Given the theme of the messages this movie was going for why would it want to say "yeah, are you confused about who you are? Good! be more confused! you are probably wrong about being trans or trapped by society or whatever. You really should doubt yourself more if possible. If people laugh at who you say you are then good, you are gross and probably wrong and should just conform more"
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Jan 19, 2022 17:23
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's a sloppy slapdash movie where the director literally wanted to quit halfway through. You should take whatever message you want from it, because she didn't much care and tells you as much in the movie. This is kind of ignoring that whole worldwide pandemic that has affected all our lives for the past two years. Production shutdown for over 3 months due to covid, and with all of the uncertainty and lack of govt leaderships and vaccines Lana thought this was it and time to walk away. This isn’t the same as just not caring about the film or having no passion for it. And we have shown how much she does seem to care about the characters and world in the movie and talked on her personal reasons for coming back.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:24
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Alchenar posted:This is all why it would have been a better film if we saw more of Trinity's life and the first act uncertainty for Neo about whether the events of the Matrix actually happened or whether he's suffering a breakdown was not resolved so early. The film could have had something to say about knowing whether you are experiencing healthy self actualisation or are dissasociating from reality. I completely agree, and bolded a very important distinction the movie didn't effectively make. It spent the first act going for a Total Recall uncertainty that just kicked up mud. Maybe it's just that "getting pilled" has changed context over the last 20 years, but consider the film's examples of a disaffected loner and a jaded parent getting pilled, eschewing reality, and ultimately becoming superheroes. That's not subtle or an intentional misread.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:26
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moths posted:I completely agree, and bolded a very important distinction the movie didn't effectively make. It spent the first act going for a Total Recall uncertainty that just kicked up mud. Or alternately two people who are forced by society to conform and be sonething they are not get to be themselves. Which is far far far more relevant to the story than the superhero stuff. Like it is getting honestly kind of offensive that you view anything that isn't society conforming to be Q Anon bullshit and no matter how often it gets explained you keep insisting it must be Q Anon. The movie is a sequel. We know who these characters are. They are seeking to become themselves.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:30
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I feel like The Matrix itself is closer to a cult. A false reality created for the purpose of control. You’re right to leave it but many people choose to stay like cypher because the perks are nice and he buys into the control. The real world kinda blows but ya know, same lol.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:35
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ImpAtom posted:Like it is getting honestly kind of offensive that you view anything that isn't society conforming to be Q Anon bullshit. How tf did you just watch a movie about people getting red-pilled to fight an evil conspiracy and say "nope no Qanon here." Trinity getting "recruited" deflates the idea that it was self-actualization. I don't think that was intentional, but it was a critical failure of the film.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:35
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Because it’s a sequel to the matrix where that doesn’t mean Q. Context matters lmao
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Jan 19, 2022 17:40
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moths posted:How tf did you just watch a movie about people getting red-pilled to fight an evil conspiracy and say "nope no Qanon here." Because the film doesn't do that. In fact an important part of the film is that Trinity is not red pilled. She makes the choice herself. The film actively says that the pills don't matter. Also because "people are controlled by society and wake up to reject its cruelty" is more relevant to the story. The end the story by goimg to paint rainbows. It is not subtle. By your logic Star Wars is about Q Anon
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Jan 19, 2022 17:41
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If anything Trinity is getting pulled into the Strawberry cartel. And right this is the 4th film. 5th if you want to count the animatrix. We know who these people are and what they stand for. We know they are not crazy and have good ambitions after all the sacrifice we saw in the last few films. We know that trinity and neo should be together and want to be together. We watched 3 films on this. Plus they don’t destroy the matrix or kill all programs and machines. They want to make rainbows for all and continue to live in harmony.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:49
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Actually women need to stay at home and cook and clean for their husbands. Saying they shouldn't means you are in a cult. actually. This could be fixed by having her doubt her own sanity more. -a real goon in 2022
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Jan 19, 2022 17:51
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How does a person who so wholeheartedly believes that rebelling against a system is inherently suspect and wrong even end up choosing to watch a Matrix movie?
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Jan 19, 2022 17:54
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CelticPredator posted:Because it’s a sequel to the matrix where that doesn’t mean Q. That's what I'm saying. The context is that it's a movie in a world where Q is more culturally relevant than an action movie from the last century.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Actually women need to stay at home and cook and clean for their husbands. Saying they shouldn't means you are in a cult. actually. This could be fixed by having her doubt her own sanity more. This is some disingenuous bullshit, and you have to be smart enough to realize that or you'd be chewing on your keyboard.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:59
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I don't personally have any qualms with the message, or rejecting the societal obligations that guilt us into conforming to roles we are not suited for, FWIW. My issue is largely that I think this metaphor could have been cleaned up in a way that would make it more closely mirror real-life; somewhat genuine question, how many transgendered individuals cut off all ties with their children after transitioning, as is displayed here when the children turn out to be malicious fake robots holding Trinity back from their true identity? What, exactly, is gained and what is lost by making them [and the swarm in general, honestly] mindless fake people? I'm not entirely sure myself, need to chew on it more, but I cant help but feel like there was a cleaner way to execute this that didn't cause friction with some of the recurring themes of the past four movies. I don't need a scene where Trinity comes back and throws red pills at the tykes, I just dont really vibe with the swarm concept.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:01
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moths posted:This is some disingenuous bullshit, and you have to be smart enough to realize that or you'd be chewing on your keyboard. Actually reading things in an absurdly bad faith way is good now. It's how you get to 'actually trinity is a bitch for leaving her family, this movie is basically Qanon" after watching this movie.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:01
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I feel like you didn't watch the film and that's ok too.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:02
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moths posted:That's what I'm saying. No you’re saying it’s bad. I’m saying that they created the dang concept and we the audience should be able to understand the concept despite idiots co-opting the message. I appreciate lana not giving a gently caress because gently caress them for ruining storytelling.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:04
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The NPC meme is now a part of The Matrix
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Jan 19, 2022 18:06
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Neurolimal posted:What, exactly, is gained and what is lost by making them [and the swarm in general, honestly] mindless fake people? It helps remove any kind of moral ambiguity about killing them, or abandoning them in Trinity's case. You gain a clearer image of the message that the director was going for, and lose depth and more interesting aspects of the characters being in a situation which isn't cut-and-dry.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:09
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Good
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Jan 19, 2022 18:09
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Is it unfair to say that the Matrix franchise didn't keep up with changes to our world over the last two decades? Or does that mean I want Trinity pregnant in the kitchen? Because that seems to be my only two choices here.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:10
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after her realization Trinity should've done the jump kick from the first movie where she kicks two people at once but instead its the kids
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Jan 19, 2022 18:11
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Ferrinus posted:You write here as though plugged-in humans only feed the machines when they're going to their simulated day jobs, but I don't know why, since both of us know that's not true. (I don't know why you're pretending the pods don't contain life support systems, either) There's no point in the day in which the machines are tapping humans for energy. So in fact that inescapable and unceasing nature of the exploitation of humans by the machines precisely reflects the dynamic written about in the "vampire" quote, just literalized and taken to a logical extreme! I am saying that this should be the case. A metaphor for capitalist exploitation should only drain labour-power from people while they are working. If the ostensibly-capitalist enemy drains power regardless of whether the characters are working, then there's a fatal contradiction. Your attempt to resolve this contradiction is to conclude the characters are always working. Tom Anderson never stops working, ever. His coding job 'doesn't count'. He has a 24 hour workday, 100% literal. I disagree with this approach, but I've been examining it anyways. So: the 'life-support systems', as you describe them, would not prevent humanity from almost-immediately going extinct. If we assume that the machines provide an adequate supply of fresh water, a pod-human will still starve after a month without food. Probably sooner. The machines technically provide food by feeding humans to eachother, but that's completely unsustainable. Some individuals might be able to survive longer than a month, but only at the expense of others. The population can only sharply decline. That is a logical extreme, for sure: the machines win the war, slowly burn the surviving humans for fuel, and humanity immediately goes extinct. Pretty bleak. But this poses a major issue for your interpretation, as we're told that the pod-person population has actually grown from a fairly small number to billions, over the course of several hundred years. That's not logical at all, unless we go back and fix the premises. That's what I've been trying to convey, but it's tricky since you seem to be vascillating between the literal and the metaphorical. Like, you're saying that the film presents a 'literalization' of what Marx was talking about, when Marx was already writing quite literally, about a literally-existing thing!
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Jan 19, 2022 18:14
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moths posted:Is it unfair to say that the Matrix franchise didn't keep up with changes to our world over the last two decades? There is a third choice: recognizing that Q Anon possibly referring to something doesn't mean it does and by trying to force it into a Q Anon hole you ignore that real struggles also fall into similar categories. Especially when your argument revolves around falsehoods like "Trinity took the red pill"
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Jan 19, 2022 18:19
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