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Pyrus Malus posted:after her realization Trinity should've done the jump kick from the first movie where she kicks two people at once but instead its the kids Should have grabbed them and started slapping the npcs with them, like Chris Farley did with a pair of fish in Beverly Hills Ninja.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:21
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ImpAtom posted:There is a third choice: recognizing that Q Anon possibly referring to something doesn't mean it does and by trying to force it into a Q Anon hole you ignore that real struggles also fall into similar categories. Especially when your argument revolves around falsehoods like "Trinity took the red pill" Q is only most relevant example. The film, cops, military, and cults all lean really loving hard on abandoning your social contacts or not having any in the first place. It's a mechanism of manipulators and abusers, and seeing it glorified on-screen and rabidly defended here is surreal. If Lana hasn't explicitly told us it's meant to represent something else, it'd be a lot more apparent.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:32
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Idk I feel like this is an intensely personal read based on your own experiences and it just doesn’t resonate with me outside of yeah Q exists. I’ve had a minor brush with it for a minute with a friend but they moved on and idk. Like that’s fine if that’s your read but you’re trying to get everyone to see it and idk. It doesn’t work.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:35
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moths posted:Q is only most relevant example. The film, cops, military, and cults all lean really loving hard on abandoning your social contacts or not having any in the first place. Yeah, women should just stay with handsome chads and not try to ever be anything else. It's qannon for them to think they should leave a relationship.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:39
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But again this isn’t a stand alone film. We have whole histories of these characters and know what they want and what’s good for them. Also the assumption is that family is good and an outside group pulling away is bad is just one angle to take. There are obviously bad “families” that take loved ones, see other cults. Is the rescue mission then not just an attempt to bring Trinity back to her real family and help her escape a cult. If a cult forced her to marry chad and adopt his kids should she just stay now?
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Jan 19, 2022 18:40
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moths posted:Q is only most relevant example. The film, cops, military, and cults all lean really loving hard on abandoning your social contacts or not having any in the first place. People have given you multiple examples of how it relates to at risk people. Again it is not necessarily bad to leave a social group. The fact that it potentially negative does not make it only negative.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:43
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ImpAtom posted:There is a third choice: recognizing that Q Anon possibly referring to something doesn't mean it does and by trying to force it into a Q Anon hole you ignore that real struggles also fall into similar categories. Especially when your argument revolves around falsehoods like "Trinity took the red pill" It’s just engaging with the material. Like, what’s up with the imagery of the ‘bots’ committing mass suicide? How do you square that with the reading that they represent transphobic people? You can totally force an interpretation, like that they are reactionary suicide bombers, commanded by their god to take revenge against the decadence and permissivity of the West, or something. But that doesn’t actually clarify; it just raises more questions. The Analyst is... Allah?
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Jan 19, 2022 18:44
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CelticPredator posted:Idk I feel like this is an intensely personal read based on your own experiences and it just doesn’t resonate with me outside of yeah Q exists. I’ve had a minor brush with it for a minute with a friend but they moved on and idk. That's, yeah that's very likely. The subject matter as presented and intended very different things and very strong. I feel like I'm just not communicating effectively. This has got nothing at all to do with misogynistic bullshit and getting told it does feels like a huge disconnect. Like ok it's supposedly a trans film but it reads like being trans is joining a cult and how am I the only one who thinks that's suboptimal? moths fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 18:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Like, what’s up with the imagery of the ‘bots’ committing mass suicide? How do you square that with the reading that they represent transphobic people?
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Jan 19, 2022 18:54
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Halloween Jack posted:I can dream, can't I? I mean beyond that we literally have large groups of mostly conservative people literally killing themselves on the altar of capitalism and bigotry. They are in fact willing to die if it means people suffer in the right way.
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Jan 19, 2022 18:57
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I have a framed Reloaded poster that 2003 me thought was cool, so I paid to have it framed - it's the poster that has tons of Agent Smiths. I can't find many for sale (other than a reprint on Amazon). Is this worth... anything, or should I just throw it into the sea?
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Jan 19, 2022 19:05
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Here's what we know of Trinity and Tiffany from just this film: At some point, the Analyst has Trinity kidnapped from a hospital. She is then given some type of mental conditioning such that she is convinced that her name is now Tiffany and forgets all of her old memories. The Analyst then forces her to marry Chad. I saw forced because she cannot give consent as she does not know who she is. She is then forced to either have his kids or adopt them (not clear here). The Analyst does something similar with Neo but has to convince him that his memories were all a video game. Neo and Trinity are key aspects to controlling his group (the matrix) and as such has them both under constant surveillance. Furthermore, Neo at least is kept constantly drugged. This doesnt seem like a loving family situation.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:14
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ImpAtom posted:I mean beyond that we literally have large groups of mostly conservative people literally killing themselves on the altar of capitalism and bigotry. They are in fact willing to die if it means people suffer in the right way. Not just bigotry, this pandemic has shown this to be literally true.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:19
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checkplease posted:Here's what we know of Trinity and Tiffany from just this film: Yes but have you considered it might be bad for tiffany to leave because she is in the proper place for a woman? And in fact it's only a cult like qannon that might suggest that her being forced into a marriage might be bad or something she might want to leave as her false family literally becomes monsters that want to kill her.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:48
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Hey can you please either show me where I said that or knock it off? I feel like it's gone beyond straw-manning at this point.
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Jan 19, 2022 19:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's a sloppy slapdash movie where the director literally wanted to quit halfway through. You should take whatever message you want from it, because she didn't much care and tells you as much in the movie. exactly
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Jan 19, 2022 20:28
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Pyrus Malus posted:after her realization Trinity should've done the jump kick from the first movie where she kicks two people at once but instead its the kids or the slow mo cgi punch from matrix revolutions but she’s busting her kids jaws lmao
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Jan 19, 2022 21:09
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Red posted:I have a framed Reloaded poster that 2003 me thought was cool, so I paid to have it framed - it's the poster that has tons of Agent Smiths. I can't find many for sale (other than a reprint on Amazon). Is this worth... anything, or should I just throw it into the sea? hah! I did the same silly thing but mine is the ‘holographic’ print of the code with the Reloaded release date. God drat the marketing up to the release of reloaded was insane, and I shoved it all down my throat. Probably why I’ve never been more disappointed with a movie 
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Jan 19, 2022 21:12
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precision posted:exactly No not exactly. There was a pandemic.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:20
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ImpAtom posted:I mean beyond that we literally have large groups of mostly conservative people literally killing themselves on the altar of capitalism and bigotry. They are in fact willing to die if it means people suffer in the right way. So the people wearing masks in the bullet train - in Japan - represent American anti-maskers? You’ve already put yourself in a tough position by just accepting the film’s weird “there are two types of people in this world...” rhetoric on its face. Because that is, unfortunately, what’s going on on the plot level: besides Merv’s lovely dance troupe, the matrix is populated entirely by ‘sheeple’ and ‘bots’. The woman in bed is a sheeple. Her husband is a bot. There’s no real difference, except that one is ‘subhuman.’ This is a... I’m gonna say “bad” way of understanding the world.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:22
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I have more respect for a defense of this movie that admits that the "all the seeming people who are opposed to us actually happen to be subhuman nonentities" thing is a Yoko Taro esque thin in-universe cope. The primaries even act barely convinced when they're expositing on the topic
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Jan 19, 2022 21:39
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One More Fat Nerd posted:Yeah but at the start of 2 he's been god for 6 months and just thinks Smith is permanently dead. Yeah, but we also don't know what he's been up to for 6 months. Maybe it occurred to him that he actually did something really dangerous shortly afterwards. Maybe he hosed around with the Old Magic a lot and that's part of what made it possible for Smith to come back. Ultimately, The One is just something the Matrix throws up periodically, so one actualizing themselves is not so much a win condition as it is a matter of finally being tall enough to ride. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am saying that this should be the case. A metaphor for capitalist exploitation should only drain labour-power from people while they are working. If the ostensibly-capitalist enemy drains power regardless of whether the characters are working, then there's a fatal contradiction. This is absolutely baffling to read because earlier in this thread, before Resurrections came out, you yourself were theorizing about fungus farms or similar contrivances that the machines used to keep plugged-in humans fed. You went as far as suggesting that this, and not people themselves, was what Smith meant when he said "crops". Now you suddenly can't imagine how the pods could function as life support systems and are preoccupied with the puzzle of how the matrix could last longer than three weeks? What's going on here? Well, whatever it is, I've hopefully cleared it up for you so we can get back to the point. In the matrix, humans work for each other for limited times determined by physiology and historical development. But there's a ceaseless and powerful force that A) seeks to extend the workday as long as possible and B) seeks to lower the value of labor-power as much as possible. B entails on one hand deskilling labor to the utmost to the point that it's completely mindless, and on the other hand boiling all the essentials of human reproduction down to their barest essence. The ideal, and this is a simile Marx uses, is a person who never stops working and simply gets the necessities of life titrated into them in the same way that coal or oil might be periodically added to a running engine. It turns out that in The Matrix (1999), this is what happens. Every human (save a small few) is in fact working for the machines at all times. Their work has been de-skilled and automated to the point that it consists of purely autonomic brain and body activity. They actually and literally perform it 24/7, and are consequently left with nothing for their own development. One might ask, naively, why do it at all? The answer is that Skynet isn't realistic; capital can't reproduce itself without people. The representation is actually even more sophisticated than that, what with Zion being cultivated and smashed as a sort of controlled opposition and on the other hand the connection drawn between the Matrix and the capitalist institution of prison (isn't it weird that a person who is homeless and jobless in the matrix is actually still contributing to the surplus? no, because that is actually already true). But the basic takeaway here is that capital is literally vampiric IRL, but it actually sticking tubes in you to siphon out your life-force 24/7 is as yet theoretical, except that in The Matrix it literally happens. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 19, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 21:47
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No Mods No Masters posted:I have more respect for a defense of this movie that admits that the "all the seeming people who are opposed to us actually happen to be subhuman nonentities" thing is a Yoko Taro esque thin in-universe cope. The primaries even act barely convinced when they're expositing on the topic A lot of the "people" used in a lot of types of social control aren't even specifically real. Like a lot of women are constrained in a lot of ways based on what a POTENTIAL husband or child would do. They will not be given a job because they MIGHT have kids later, or denied a medical procedure because it might conflict with what a future husband wants. Like a lot of the ways society controls people is using the roles around them, regardless of if that role is actually filled or not. The fill in blank fake family is given is enough, for example, to have a dozen people in this thread wringing their hands that she was a bad woman by rejecting them.
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Jan 19, 2022 22:22
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:A lot of the "people" used in a lot of types of social control aren't even specifically real. However you feel about it, the situation is much more interesting if it involves actual people instead of contrived guilt absolving cardboard cutouts. I'm fine with a movie that explores the question of when your needs outweigh those of your family and you've just gotta hit da bricks, but it should own it instead of semi-hiding behind a laughably thin cope
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Jan 19, 2022 22:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am saying that this should be the case. A metaphor for capitalist exploitation should only drain labour-power from people while they are working. If the ostensibly-capitalist enemy drains power regardless of whether the characters are working, then there's a fatal contradiction. This isn’t a contradiction. Modern capitalism drains people when they aren’t on the clock; marketing, consumerism, celebrity/lifestyle culture poo poo, etc etc pick your metaphor really. Everything feeds back into the machine, the matrix merely visualizes the closed loop.
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Jan 19, 2022 22:53
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Nuts and Gum posted:hah! I did the same silly thing but mine is the ‘holographic’ print of the code with the Reloaded release date. I'd actually never seen the first, but was dragged to the second, and loved the highway scene; I went back and watched the first, and loved that, too. I saw the third and kind of wished I had my money back.
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Jan 19, 2022 23:02
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In the Matrix, me, Jeff Bezos, a homeless person and a Foxconn worker are all being exploited at the exact same rate, right? Like, Bezos could wake up and fight the machines and then go back inside to continue owning Amazon. Seems like a poor metaphor for capitalism.
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Jan 19, 2022 23:16
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No Mods No Masters posted:However you feel about it, the situation is much more interesting if it involves actual people instead of contrived guilt absolving cardboard cutouts. I'm fine with a movie that explores the question of when your needs outweigh those of your family and you've just gotta hit da bricks, but it should own it instead of semi-hiding behind a laughably thin cope Society uses motherhood and wifehood to control women. It sounds more like you want that message watered down by including the other side and long scenes where trinity is reminded it's good that women are oppressed and they might have a point if you think about this man she was literally forced to sleep with and raise the children might actually be best for her.
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Jan 19, 2022 23:26
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Nebalebadingdong posted:In the Matrix, me, Jeff Bezos, a homeless person and a Foxconn worker are all being exploited at the exact same rate, right? Like, Bezos could wake up and fight the machines and then go back inside to continue owning Amazon. Seems like a poor metaphor for capitalism. First, that's not entirely clear - the more anxious and miserable you are, the more you seem to generate, so simulating a radically unequal society is more efficient than simulating an equitable one (and why would Bezos want to wake up?) Second, Marx was only half-joking about the "abstinence" of the capitalists. Even if an individual boss gets to keep revenue that buys him arithmetically more luxuries than last year, and more than the year before that, the proportion of surplus that's used to valorize capital rather than eaten up by the individual consumption needs of specific capitalists tends to increase. They get smaller and smaller slices of an increasingly ridiculously huge pie. Given that it's capital and not capitalists which are ultimately in charge, the logical endpoint is indeed that that a foreman or superintendent isn't paid meaningfully more than a menial labor because even a manager or CEO's labor has been de-skilled to the maximum, and whether you're at the bottom or at the top the non-negotiable condition for your getting to live is that you are somehow contributing to the M-C-M' cycle. Third, in plot terms the matrix is a prison/slave camp (both of which are crucial to capitalist development), so of course it's going to have internal hierarchies deliberately inculcated or at least encouraged by the wardens so as to make it easier to manage.
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Jan 19, 2022 23:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Society uses motherhood and wifehood to control women. No? I don't think any of that is necessary. Just removing the exposition about bots would be a start and it would also improve the movie by making it shorter. Simply treat the characters that behave like people as people, just like the previous matrix films did- to their credit. I think the message would be strengthened and not watered down by taking off the kid gloves
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Jan 19, 2022 23:36
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It's legitimately interesting to wonder to what extent 'bots' are 'people.' Obviously, a great many constructs in the Matrix are definitely persons - the Agents, the Oracle, the Merovingian, etc. etc. - they all are just as much 'persons' as the human characters are. We don't know much about the bots, we only see them usually right before they are 'activated' and then killed - how long do people maintain relationships with them? Did Trinity spend actual years cultivating a relationship with her bot husband and bot child? Or is every day exactly the same - she's always been married to this guy, she always has the same age kids, etc. - it's possible the bots are Very Botlike, they only have to maintain a total facade, or they are much more multifaceted. Even if they have a killswitch in them that the Analyst can activate, that doesn't necessarily make them any less of a person than any of the other constructs. I don't really know what the line is - how much independent thinking is needed for Bot constructs to be persons than regular old constructs? I have no idea, I'm not saying I know one way or the other, but the Analyst (and to a certain extent, the film) handwaves their existence away, when maybe we shouldn't.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:51
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Yeah, I mean if you take away the bot element they're just people working for the bad guy. Maybe they're assholes, maybe they have their reasons, maybe they're the machine equivalent of sheeple, maybe they're slaves in their own right, etc. In any case, it's not like the previous films had an issue with the protagonists blowing people like that away, and so be it. But trying to foreclose any possibility of sympathy or interest in them is a bad look. You can certainly ascribe that to laziness on the filmmaker's part and that's fine but kind of a discussion dead end. To me it feels more like a symptom of a lack of confidence. If the message is "Society uses motherhood and wifehood to control women", fine, but then why also mutter "But really don't worry because the other parties in the mother and wife relationships in this case don't count as people"
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Jan 20, 2022 02:17
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I don’t think the films argue that all artificial life is the same as human, just the same as we don’t count cows and sheep at our level either. Sentient programs and machines are said to be the same, but after that there are questions. There’s obviously the intelligent programs like oracles or sati and such, but you also have bluebird254.exe, which is well made to be a bird and won’t have human like intelligence. Machines fall into the same questions, where obviously the big taking baby face machine at end of revolutions is intelligent, but do you count the hovercraft, or even the sentinels which may be more ant like? Bots do seem the be more nebulous where they act more human until activated. But then we already have sophisticated chat bots now and do we count them as human? Of course original matrix just had people die when fighting neo and trinity and crew, so no real morality changes here.
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Jan 20, 2022 02:19
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In my opinion things like the "working on the matrix sequel" montage establish that time passes in the matrix 4 matrix in a basically normal way, events have a logical sequence, etc. You're not just living the same day over and over in permanent stasis. Even if it were simplified somewhat, beings that could serve as eg your family in that environment I think pass the hurdle for being people and not glorified chatbots pretty easily. I understand reasonable people can differ to an extent, but I think views too far from that baseline would start to rely a lot on things not in the movie No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 02:34
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Nebalebadingdong posted:In the Matrix, me, Jeff Bezos, a homeless person and a Foxconn worker are all being exploited at the exact same rate, right? Like, Bezos could wake up and fight the machines and then go back inside to continue owning Amazon. Seems like a poor metaphor for capitalism. The question I can't get past is why the Machines are doing any of this, because it can't be for our precious British thermal units. If you have energy from fusion, you have energy from fusion. I can only assume that they're not farming energy that they get from making people miserable, they're farming the misery itself. Okay, so why are they doing that? I can only guess that they're stuck in the same rut we are, trapped in the logic of the late-capitalist system, and studying humanity in the hopes of learning things that will allow them to break the cycle and make real progress. It's not working, probably because they're assuming that the late 1990s was the peak of human civilization. It's like the scientists who studied wolves in captivity, assuming they were seeing their "natural" behaviour in their "natural" environment, not realizing that they were actively loving up their social dynamcis the whole time. This generated a lot of wrongheaded thinking about "alphas and betas." Hm. Perhaps the Machines have based their whole economy on mining psychic cryptocurrency, arbitrarily assigning it value and using this value-form to measure wealth and social status among themselves. Of course none of this data is actually useful, or in any case isn't being interpreted correctly, so it's totally disconnected from the actual economy of building fusion plants and spider robots and squid robots and metal womb pods. Which is why the Machines were facing an energy crisis.
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Jan 20, 2022 03:31
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if they just wanted misery, seems like you could just have a regular prison? and i feel the hierarchies-inside-the-prison stuff, but it's not specific to capitalism. why would the metaphor-for-capitalism have literal capitalism contained inside it? i feel like pre-capitalist societies could envision a world where youre living an illusion while an invisible someone sucks your mystical juices.
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Jan 20, 2022 04:13
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No Mods No Masters posted:In my opinion things like the "working on the matrix sequel" montage establish that time passes in the matrix 4 matrix in a basically normal way, events have a logical sequence, etc. You're not just living the same day over and over in permanent stasis. Even if it were simplified somewhat, beings that could serve as eg your family in that environment I think pass the hurdle for being people and not glorified chatbots pretty easily. Isn't it kind of hinted at that Neal Patrick Harris is resetting the matrix a bunch? At least for Neo anyway, so doesn't it follow that at least for Neo he is locked in some kind of stasis?
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Jan 20, 2022 04:24
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Nebalebadingdong posted:if they just wanted misery, seems like you could just have a regular prison? and i feel the hierarchies-inside-the-prison stuff, but it's not specific to capitalism. Marx opens Capital with an in-depth examination of the commodity, because a single commodity contains within itself all the manifold contradictions of the capitalist system at large. You can study economics at a lot of different layers of abstraction, and whether you zoom in real close or out real far you see very similar dynamics play out. This is part of what makes the language of mysticism and superstition so useful when discussing the dynamics of capital. Classical occult concepts of "as above, so below" or of small units (normally the human body) being microcosms of the universe at large end up neatly applicable. But also, separately, lots of narratives about the dangers or qualities of some thing actually do contain that thing alongside the fictional construct that magnifies whatever's important about that thing. Nuclear power and American militarism all exist and are exactly as dangerous as they are IRL in the same movie that contains Godzilla.
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Jan 20, 2022 06:33
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Halloween Jack posted:
-Karl Marxbot
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Jan 20, 2022 06:35
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Ferrinus posted:This is absolutely baffling to read because earlier in this thread, before Resurrections came out, you yourself were theorizing about fungus farms or similar contrivances that the machines used to keep plugged-in humans fed. You went as far as suggesting that this, and not people themselves, was what Smith meant when he said "crops". Now you suddenly can't imagine how the pods could function as life support systems and are preoccupied with the puzzle of how the matrix could last longer than three weeks? What's going on here? What's going on is that you are losing track of the conversation. Your interpretation is that the exposition is true and the machines are desperate for fuel to make zappy-sparks. If you are now agreeing that the machines actually have access to a ton of offscreen food (as they must, if human population growth is occurring), then that's a pretty big shift. It brings us back to the problem that the machines can just burn the food, making the whole matrix pointless. There seems to be no way to dissuade you from these basic unscientific claims. Like: Ferrinus posted:The ideal, and this is a simile Marx uses, is a person who never stops working and simply gets the necessities of life titrated into them in the same way that coal or oil might be periodically added to a running engine. That is not at all what happens in the films; an engine converts energy to motion, while the matrix-pods - under your interpretation - convert energy into less energy. Picture a steam engine being shoveled full of coal. The heat of the burning coal boils the water, which produces steam, which spins a turbine, which is attached to a belt. The friction of the belt is then used to heat a tiny kettle. That's what you're describing. In real life, workers can do things that a pile of food can't. That's why capitalists employ workers, instead of just purchasing and burning large piles of food.
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Jan 20, 2022 06:58
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