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Budzilla posted:Too bad EE citizens want the US involved so their opinions sort of matter. That's true, but some opinions are better than others. Could really do without reading "I just found out Ukraine exists and here's what I predict is going to happen" x20 nurmie posted:speaking of, has anyone seen anything about what Igor Girkin's been up to as of late? he's been keeping quite a low profile thus far in this particular permutation of the conflict, it seems like. actually, i don't think i heard about him like since 2016? He's been sentenced to life in prison by the Netherlands for MH17 and mocked them for it. He's laying low and not going to get offed unless he decides to spill the beans (knows too much, too high profile but also did an excellent job starting a war) Edit: https://mobile.twitter.com/mjluxmoore/status/1484447115984216065 Hopefully this is plan B if an invasion to overthrow Kyiv is deemed not worth it for the economic costs -- recognizing the bandit republics and moving in troops there like in Georgia Somaen fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 13:28
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Budzilla posted:I hosed up. The US has deployed ABM shields in Eastern Europe and in response Russia has discarded the IMF treaty. Both sides have been horrible for nuclear arms control. I’m really struggling to figure out what either of the parts of this post are trying to say.
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Jan 21, 2022 13:37
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piL posted:
/Germany/ is actively trying to interfere with arms sales to Ukraine and talking down potential scope of sanctions. It's good that they have guilt over WW2, but they seem utterly unaware of who they actually fought.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:10
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OddObserver posted:/Germany/ is actively trying to interfere with arms sales to Ukraine and talking down potential scope of sanctions. It's good that they have guilt over WW2, but they seem utterly unaware of who they actually fought.  Russia gets Saxony
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Jan 21, 2022 14:13
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Lots of old regdates itt not understanding why countries should not invade other countries. Also, I live in Eastern Poland about 80 miles from Belarus and want to give a heartful gently caress you to all who think that Russia is even a tiny bit justified when all of this is happening. Have lots of friends on Ukraine, I worry about them daily. I thought SA was better than this. Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 14:24
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OddObserver posted:/Germany/ is actively trying to interfere with arms sales to Ukraine and talking down potential scope of sanctions. It's good that they have guilt over WW2, but they seem utterly unaware of who they actually fought. this seems like a weird way to put it, but isnt it kinda good that modern germans do not follow their history by repeating the same mistakes? ukraine absolutely should not get more weapons to pursue escalation of the conflict with the breakaway republics
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Jan 21, 2022 14:27
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lollontee posted:this seems like a weird way to put it, but isnt it kinda good that modern germans do not follow their history by repeating the same mistakes? ukraine absolutely should not get more weapons to pursue escalation of the conflict with the breakaway republics  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2022 14:37
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Agreed, just like Finland had to be stopped against genociding the proud and totally real breakaway Finnish Democratic Republic
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Jan 21, 2022 14:38
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Somaen posted:Agreed, just like Finland had to be stopped against genociding the proud and totally real breakaway Finnish Democratic Republic The story of that conflict is a lot more complicated than that, with Germany playing a large part in how things turned out in the end, for example. It's an interesting (and a very sad) historical time and place and rewards further investigation, if you are interested! Just putting this out there because this thread has become Dumb Hot Take Central and I don't want the most painful period in recent Finnish history to become another casualty of it.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:44
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lollontee posted:this seems like a weird way to put it, but isnt it kinda good that modern germans do not follow their history by repeating the same mistakes? ukraine absolutely should not get more weapons to pursue escalation of the conflict with the breakaway republics Yes, Ukraine, a country of 40 million people with an airforce and thousands of armed vehicles needs western arms to take over two cities run by gangsters. That's the reason the west is delivering weapons to them. Yes. It's a real arms race with the gopniks and we can't allow Ukraine to fall behind
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Jan 21, 2022 14:45
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Yeah. I'd ask the mods again why it's allowed for obvious trolls to post epic joke owns about something that is matter of life or death for posters itt, or their families and friends, but it would probably be pointless. Specifically op you are responding you is currently posting elsewhere that Ukrainian militias are provoking innocent Russia into attacking, which shows well enough the level these individuals operate on. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 14:46
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Good thing that we have the good guy Russia stepping in.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:46
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lollontee posted:this seems like a weird way to put it, but isnt it kinda good that modern germans do not follow their history by repeating the same mistakes? ukraine absolutely should not get more weapons to pursue escalation of the conflict with the breakaway republics This is a curious position given your view on China/Taiwan.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:47
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i think if you are american, you can coherently argue that ukraine is not a concern of the united states. i think there's a lot wrong with that perspective, but it's not dissimilar from what a lot of officials in DC themselves are saying behind the scenes. trying to argue that russia is somehow the aggrieved party or that russia is entitled to attack ukraine is absurd. putting aside the entitlement and anti-democratic attitude it takes to declare that you deserve control over X or Y country because it is in your "sphere of influence," ukraine has not made any meaningful moves toward joining NATO or the EU. it does not pose a military or economic threat to russia in any meaningful sense. ukraine has gone out of its way to avoid direct confrontation, as evidenced by the lack of response to russia's annexation of crimea and its continued attempts to work things out through the minsk protocol despite russia repeatedly violating those agreements. this current crisis is one that russia has entirely manufactured itself. moreover, i would point out that one of the reasons that NATO has persisted as an institution into the 21st century is because russia keeps choosing to invade, harass, and threaten its neighbors. if russia were able to exert a modicum of control over itself, people in eastern europe, the caucasus, and balkans would be far less eager to join or remain in the alliance
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Jan 21, 2022 14:47
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GABA ghoul posted:Yes, Ukraine, a country of 40 million people with an airforce and thousands of armed vehicles needs western arms to take over two cities run by gangsters. That's the reason the west is delivering weapons to them. Yes. It's a real arms race with the gopniks and we can't allow Ukraine to fall behind that is not why it's good that germany is interfering with attempts to start yet another imperial war against russia
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Jan 21, 2022 14:47
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Alchenar posted:This is a curious position given your view on China/Taiwan. yes, it is! i would love to debate with you on the matter in the dnd china thread, alas ive been threadbanned, so your curiosity shall unfortunately remain forever unsated
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Jan 21, 2022 14:50
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lollontee posted:yes, it is! i would love to debate with you on the matter in the dnd china thread, alas ive been threadbanned, so your curiosity shall unfortunately remain forever unsated I can only hope that our curiosity on your opinions about Eastern European politics may suffer a similar fate.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:51
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I can only hope that our curiosity on your opinions about Eastern European politics may suffer a similar fate. im sure you will make the effort together, as a thread
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Jan 21, 2022 14:53
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I thought they invented Cspam so there wouldn't be any more threadshitting from these dregs of humanity (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2022 14:54
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barbecue at the folks posted:The story of that conflict is a lot more complicated than that, with Germany playing a large part in how things turned out in the end, for example. It's an interesting (and a very sad) historical time and place and rewards further investigation, if you are interested! Just putting this out there because this thread has become Dumb Hot Take Central and I don't want the most painful period in recent Finnish history to become another casualty of it. Hey, I'm up for reading any good links if you can share. A part of my own family was from a mixed russian-finnish village under Leningrad and lived through a Finnish concentration camp. My post was specifically regarding the "breakaway republic" being made up out of thin air from an old playbook for justification for wars of conquest
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Jan 21, 2022 14:55
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Somaen posted:Hey, I'm up for reading any good links if you can share. A part of my own family was from a mixed russian-finnish village under Leningrad and lived through a Finnish concentration camp. My post was specifically regarding the "breakaway republic" being made up out of thin air from an old playbook for justification for wars of conquest the luhansk and donetsk republics didnt come out of thin air though, they fought a bloody war for their independence
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Jan 21, 2022 14:57
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lollontee posted:that is not why it's good that germany is interfering with attempts to start yet another imperial war against russia I really wish when the attack on Ukraine starts you'd be in Kyiv, to experience it firsthand and chronicle the imperial crimes against Russia.
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Jan 21, 2022 14:58
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steinrokkan posted:I thought they invented Cspam so there wouldn't be any more threadshitting from these dregs of humanity
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Jan 21, 2022 14:58
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Terminally Bored posted:I really wish when the attack on Ukraine starts you'd be in Kyiv, to experience it firsthand and chronicle the imperial crimes against Russia. why would you wish something like that? seems like a place i could get killed for being a communist in
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Jan 21, 2022 14:59
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QuoProQuid posted:i think if you are american, you can coherently argue that ukraine is not a concern of the united states. i think there's a lot wrong with that perspective, but it's not dissimilar from what a lot of officials in DC themselves are saying behind the scenes. I think both of the bolded statements are true, and are not mutually exclusive. I (American) am certainly not interested in any kind of military response to a potential Russian invasion. Sanctions are trickier, since they disproportionately harm people who have little-to-nothing to do with the anteceding cause, but it's also kinda bad to invade your neighbors and it's good to show disfavor when they do. QuoProQuid posted:moreover, i would point out that one of the reasons that NATO has persisted as an institution into the 21st century is because russia keeps choosing to invade, harass, and threaten its neighbors. if russia were able to exert a modicum of control over itself, people in eastern europe, the caucasus, and balkans would be far less eager to join or remain in the alliance This I will disagree with. NATO was about defending the Western Bloc against the Eastern. What real purpose did/does NATO serve after the end of the Cold War? It was the End of History, right? But because NATO--which, again, was an explicitly anti-Soviet alliance--expanded into Easter Europe, it seems pretty easy to understand why Russia, the official successor state to the USSR, would feel threatened. Whether or not the Baltics, Poland et al. wanted to be in NATO or not is irrelevant; the anti-Russia military alliance expanded toward Russia, and Russia has acted to counter NATO's encroachment since. Russia has been provoked, whether it was deliberate or incidental doesn't matter.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:00
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lollontee posted:the luhansk and donetsk republics didnt come out of thin air though, they fought a bloody war for their independence Dont post here idiot. Thanks
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Jan 21, 2022 15:02
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lollontee posted:why would you wish something like that? seems like a place i could get killed for being a communist in shut the gently caress up you complete moron
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Jan 21, 2022 15:03
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Somaen posted:Hey, I'm up for reading any good links if you can share. A part of my own family was from a mixed russian-finnish village under Leningrad and lived through a Finnish concentration camp. My post was specifically regarding the "breakaway republic" being made up out of thin air from an old playbook for justification for wars of conquest There have been good new books coming out recently in Finland on the White and Red Terror before and after the jaeger landing that ultimately decided the conflict - things got real bloody and complicated, as they tend to do in such conflicts. However, this is the only recent book I could find for an international audience, as far as I know - at least it looks like a good one: https://brill.com/view/title/22853?language=en You might be able to snag it from a university library near you, for example, I guess? (I'm assuming you don't read Finnish.) I feel kinda bad now after realizing I'm unable to point towards anything else than the most general accounts or Wikipedia, egg on my face, I guess!
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Jan 21, 2022 15:05
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lollontee posted:why would you wish something like that? seems like a place i could get killed for being a communist in I'm sure the Wagner mercenaries protecting your 'friendly' DNR/LNR, who were also founded by nazis will be very considerate of your communist beliefs.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:05
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Panzeh posted:I'm sure the Wagner mercenaries protecting your 'friendly' DNR/LNR, who were also founded by nazis will be very considerate of your communist beliefs. well they started an international communist battalion just for that back in the war, so evidently yeah
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Jan 21, 2022 15:07
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prizrak_Brigade these guys
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Jan 21, 2022 15:08
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lollontee posted:well they started an international communist battalion just for that back in the war, so evidently yeah Can always count on "communists" to help out the fash in a war driven heavily by notion of ethnic superiority and imperialism.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:09
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TipTow posted:This I will disagree with. NATO was about defending the Western Bloc against the Eastern. What real purpose did/does NATO serve after the end of the Cold War? It was the End of History, right? But because NATO--which, again, was an explicitly anti-Soviet alliance--expanded into Easter Europe, it seems pretty easy to understand why Russia, the official successor state to the USSR, would feel threatened. Whether or not the Baltics, Poland et al. wanted to be in NATO or not is irrelevant; the anti-Russia military alliance expanded toward Russia, and Russia has acted to counter NATO's encroachment since. Russia has been provoked, whether it was deliberate or incidental doesn't matter. NATO was no more an anti-Russian coalition post-Cold War (well, until Russia gave them a reason to change their focus) than the EU after Maastricht was a coal trading block. There are many other incentives for European countries to join up militarily, specifically cost-sharing and specialization, which allow them to have something resembling a military without spending much at all. There is little reason why to even keep the NATO label and not transfer most of contemporary NATO capabilities to European institutions, but also there's little will to rebuild already established structures for few apparent reasons other than mostly symbolic. It's the nature of European integration that there will always be a defense block, whether it's called NATO or not, and it's not going to change, and it's a good thing.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:09
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barbecue at the folks posted:There have been good new books coming out recently in Finland on the White and Red Terror before and after the jaeger landing that ultimately decided the conflict - things got real bloody and complicated, as they tend to do in such conflicts. However, this is the only recent book I could find for an international audience, as far as I know - at least it looks like a good one: https://brill.com/view/title/22853?language=en You might be able to snag it from a university library near you, for example, I guess? (I'm assuming you don't read Finnish.) I feel kinda bad now after realizing I'm unable to point towards anything else than the most general accounts or Wikipedia, egg on my face, I guess! The democratic republic I had in mind was the one the USSR made up as a pretext to start the winter war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic Had no idea it was based in the red state from the civil war, I know even less about that period
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Jan 21, 2022 15:09
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Somaen posted:The democratic republic I had in mind was the one the USSR made up as a pretext to start the winter war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic Ooohh, I complely misunderstood, my bad - I took you as comparing Red Finland of 1918 to Novorussia and kinda blew a fuse there for no reason! Yeah, the Kuusinen government really fits the bill, lol
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Jan 21, 2022 15:11
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OddObserver posted:Can always count on "communists" to help out the fash in a war driven heavily by notion of ethnic superiority and imperialism. My cool communist battalion, fighting for the neonazi puppet government controlled by a virulently nationalist fascist dictator.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:12
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steinrokkan posted:My cool communist battalion, fighting for the neonazi puppet government controlled by a virulently nationalist fascist dictator. This is what you call "useful idiots", yes?
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Jan 21, 2022 15:13
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barbecue at the folks posted:This is what you call "useful idiots", yes? Nah, the useful idiot is just the one posting itt, that batallion is just ordinary, fully aware Nazis.
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Jan 21, 2022 15:14
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Xarn posted:What's with the "poow widdle Russia has no choice but to invade its neighbours" takes from people who posted here first time today?
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Jan 21, 2022 15:14
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I'm now tbf kinda looking forward to lollontee barging in to defend the Shelling of Mainila as a necessary anti-imperialist action 
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Jan 21, 2022 15:17
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