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cinci zoo sniper posted:^^ Deleted tweet. I think it got deleted because the office appeared to have tagged a parody account by mistake. It was a statement from the NATO spokesperson saying that "NATO will not agree to have first- and second-class members. A threat to one member is a threat to all and we will not restrict our capacity to operate within our own territory in defense of a member." e: yeah, here it is again: https://twitter.com/NATOpress/status/1484637279926820866
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Jan 21, 2022 22:21
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Oh, I see. As for the statement, it’s about as expected I guess.
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Jan 21, 2022 22:23
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QuoProQuid posted:the article states it is not about finland not approving but germany having a policy against sending weapons to "tense regions." Yes, but even if German government gave their permission, Estonia would still need Finland's permission too. And Finnish left-centre government is not that likely to bend this rule. Now if someone like Saudi Arabia asked, well that's different. They have money.
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Jan 21, 2022 22:26
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Alchenar posted:I mean cinci is right, this is fundamentally a choice about quality of debate. D&D can either be a place where every thread is mired in debunking low-effort disinformation hopefully for the benefit of lurkers, or it can be a place to discuss and learn about what is actually going on. But it can't be both. Oh and everyone hates doing the former. Nobody has been happy with the last few pages apart the very gleeful troll. All you're doing here is creating a situation where any poster that falls foul of the majority is declared 'low effort' and removed. You suggested no definition of what is low-effort and i'm not sure how you would unless you are suggesting going back to the bad old days where people broke apart posts by sentence and everyone had to post referrals like a wiki article.
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Jan 21, 2022 23:05
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Regarde Aduck posted:All you're doing here is creating a situation where any poster that falls foul of the majority is declared 'low effort' and removed. You suggested no definition of what is low-effort and i'm not sure how you would unless you are suggesting going back to the bad old days where people broke apart posts by sentence and everyone had to post referrals like a wiki article. As opposed to the bad current days where we spend 4 pages getting trolled until it turns out that the poster in question is using Russian government funded neo-nazi propaganda as their source. Posters should (this is still in the rules) be actually bringing something interesting to the table.
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Jan 21, 2022 23:15
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meanwhile ... https://twitter.com/stefsiohan/status/1484653452118663169
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Jan 21, 2022 23:36
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Nenonen posted:Yes, but even if German government gave their permission, Estonia would still need Finland's permission too. And Finnish left-centre government is not that likely to bend this rule. Finnish position is that during wartime they buy weapons and supplies from another countries. Though it seems they're not really willing to reciprocate.
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Jan 21, 2022 23:44
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El Perkele posted:Finnish position is that during wartime they buy weapons and supplies from another countries. Though it seems they're not really willing to reciprocate. The 44th Rifle Division was formed in Ukraine and was destroyed on Raate Road in January 1940. NEVER FORGET
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Jan 22, 2022 00:06
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Regarde Aduck posted:All you're doing here is creating a situation where any poster that falls foul of the majority is declared 'low effort' and removed. You suggested no definition of what is low-effort and i'm not sure how you would unless you are suggesting going back to the bad old days where people broke apart posts by sentence and everyone had to post referrals like a wiki article. Oh come on it's not that hard. If someone comes in, with some incendiary comment on the level of "the opposing side is committing genocide, I support the real heroes", in some absurd attempt to turn the debate into a flag waving contest, then refuses to argue anything and just insists that everyone play "who's the nazi" until they come to the realization that the only winning move is to quit, then I'm gonna say that's low effort. That feels like a miserable time for anybody involved, brought forward by someone too radicalized to argue with. If anything we're lucky he managed to drop the ball on page 4. Anyway, I'm not very optimistic about a Biden/Putin meeting. I'd be a decent boost to Biden's failing presidency if he does manage to appease Putin. Seems more like Russia's mind is set, and they're stalling for time, considering the options in the negotiating table. Russia's probably right in thinking that they can start a landgrab so long as they stop before NATO proper gets involved.
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Jan 22, 2022 00:07
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There's nothing the US can realistically offer that'd get Putin to back down; this is just theatrics in the vain hope of delaying conflict by avoiding giving Russia something they can shape into a casus belli.
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Jan 22, 2022 00:26
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The best scenario is Russian troops on Ukrainian border going “gently caress this” and going to Moscow to change governments. Critical mass indeed.
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Jan 22, 2022 00:33
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iv46vi posted:The best scenario is Russian troops on Ukrainian border going “gently caress this” and going to Moscow to change governments. Critical mass indeed. This is less likely than Christina Aguilera stopping the war by walking onto the highway between Ukrainian and Russian tank columns to sing All Star by Smash Mouth.
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Jan 22, 2022 00:35
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Conspiratiorist posted:There's nothing the US can realistically offer that'd get Putin to back down; this is just theatrics in the vain hope of delaying conflict by avoiding giving Russia something they can shape into a casus belli. The US can offer an alternative where NATO troops flood into the Baltics and around Kaliningrad, and also open NATO membership up globally. It would be further destabilizing for sure, but if the US wanted to play there's lots that could be done to outshine any potential gains in Ukraine.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:13
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The US can't do that, in fact.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:16
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Conspiratiorist posted:The US can't do that, in fact. Since the US makes up like half of NATO and the Baltics have continually asked for more NATO troops the US could very easily flood them unilaterally with troops. Global NATO may be more of a stretch but I have a hard time believing that Australia and New Zealand would be rejected NATO membership if they're willing to toss troops into Poland.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:18
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Who knows where those avatars with the various paintings of actors dressed up as 19th-century generals comes from? The News Hour expert on Russian troop movements near Ukraine has the one of Patrick Stewart framed on the wall next to him. Michael Kofman of the Center for Naval Analyses. He was saying that units are being transferred from further parts of Russia into Belarus and that an invasion is likely just weeks away.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:18
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Also Sweden and Finland may as well be in NATO because I have a hard time believing Russia could invade them without any EU NATO members triggering Article 5 from collateral damage.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:27
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The US can offer an alternative where NATO troops flood into the Baltics and around Kaliningrad, and also open NATO membership up globally. It would be further destabilizing for sure, but if the US wanted to play there's lots that could be done to outshine any potential gains in Ukraine. How about increase Russian sanctions until Russia joins NATO?
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Jan 22, 2022 01:40
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Since the US makes up like half of NATO and the Baltics have continually asked for more NATO troops the US could very easily flood them unilaterally with troops. That's going to happen anyway.
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Jan 22, 2022 01:55
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Conspiratiorist posted:The US can't do that, in fact. Conspiratiorist posted:That's going to happen anyway. Wow what great and consistent points you're making.
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Jan 22, 2022 02:00
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The US can offer an alternative where NATO troops flood into the Baltics and around Kaliningrad, and also open NATO membership up globally. It would be further destabilizing for sure, but if the US wanted to play there's lots that could be done to outshine any potential gains in Ukraine. Reinforcement of the Baltics is a given regardless of what happens from here on. The US spearheading this is a possibility but administrations are always schizophrenic about NATO commitments - the US would rather just sell/lease equipment. On the other hand, expanding NATO membership globally is absolutely not the US's call to make. And overall, the threat of NATO drawing a harder line and expanding membership is empty because what Russia wants is an ironclad guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO, since Ukraine joining NATO is worse as far as their encirclement concerns go than either of your proposals, and kicking the can down the road is unacceptable as well.
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Jan 22, 2022 02:09
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entry to NATO requires unanimous approval from all NATO member-states. even if the Alliance wanted to throw its requirements to the wind and even if the US wanted to throw open the doors to, idk, japan, countries like France and Germany would not allow them to join
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Jan 22, 2022 02:10
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Fritz the Horse posted:As I understand the new-ish guidelines in D&D, lollontee is allowed to advance any argument they want. Instead of simply posting this link: https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/06/donbass-russians-subject-unparalleled-ethnic-cleansing/ hey genius that was for the us politics threads?? uk and canada and other regional threads are being allowed to self police, why tf is this one not? just make one of the good regulars an IK instead of trying to make this thread do the full uspol bullshit of 'every single post must be treated as equally good faith no matter how transparently idiotic and offensive it is'
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Jan 22, 2022 02:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:hey genius that was for the us politics threads?? uk and canada and other regional threads are being allowed to self police, why tf is this one not? No, its in general especially when, say, someone drops in to make egregious claims about, say, ethnic cleansing and then can't back up their claims without posting a conspiracy theory propped up by a Russian anti-Semitic think tank and then claim that they posted it as a joke.
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Jan 22, 2022 02:51
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Since the US makes up like half of NATO and the Baltics have continually asked for more NATO troops the US could very easily flood them unilaterally with troops. the issue with NATO gureenteeing every country on earth is are French and Germans ready to die for east Timor? Stepanakert? If the answer is no, then that enterprise is doomed.
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Jan 22, 2022 02:59
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The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. So, what I was thinking of doing, is splitting it into two threads. One thread that's specifically for Eastern Europeans, is about issues that have less international significance or would only likely be familiar to those from the region, and is self-policed like the CanPol thread as more of a hangout, possibly with its own ik chosen by regulars. The other thread would be Eastern European History and News, which would be intended more for an international audience; actual Eastern Europeans would be encouraged to post here as well to give their own expert perspective, but they would no longer be obligated to read a bunch of posts by Americans if they didn't want to. Thoughts?
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Jan 22, 2022 03:06
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. As a long time mostly lurker, this is a terrible idea because then we will just have two threads where one is useless noise and the other is real information but where non Eastern Europeans don't have a right to speak. What's the point of that? What kind of debate and discussion is that? Jesus christ people aren't asking for much, literally just keep out the genocide deniers.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:17
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. I think what the EE people don't like is international posters coming in talking about their countries like expendable chess pieces for the advancement of their FP fantasy football teams. Super especially the ones that rules lawyer the things where they get killed.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:18
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Quote is not edit.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:19
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. I don't think we should assume someone from, say, Poland is an "expert" on all news related to "Eastern Europe," which really tends to mean the former Soviet Union and Balkans. How about a new thread specifically for "Cold War 2"/Russia-NATO tensions? and we just keep this as an EE/fmr USSR thread? FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 03:20
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FishBulbia posted:I don't think we should assume someone from, say, Poland is an "expert" on all news related to "Eastern Europe," which really tends to mean the former Soviet Union and Balkans. How about a new thread specifically for "Cold War 2"/Russia-NATO tensions? and we just keep this as an EE/fmr USSR thread? I do encourage threads for specific current events, so I would be all for a Donbas War one. But the issue has come up in the EE thread before this was in the news, and wouldn't be solved by just that, I don't think.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:31
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Grape posted:I think what the EE people don't like is international posters coming in talking about their countries like expendable chess pieces for the advancement of their FP fantasy football teams. Upon reflection I think this is why I received such hostility to what I posted today, and I understand why. I appreciate this thread precisely because of the number of EE posters in it and would greatly prefer it not be split up.
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Jan 22, 2022 03:33
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Can’t say I’m a fan, personally. This thread does seldom function as a casual hangout, and at the same time the absolute majority of regular contributors are locals - in splinter thread scenario, I can’t see how one of them doesn’t become a ghost town. CanadaChat or whatever works because this forum has enough Anglo-Saxons to populate country or even area-specific threads, whereas I’m not going to bother posting at people from 17 countries that it was windy on Sunday in Riga. Besides, the problem itself isn’t really permanent - threadshitting only happens when Ukraine is in the news basically, which has *really* happened four times in 8 years, and by 1-2 people at the time. No one of local gives a gently caress that opinion is written by an American or a professional basket weaver or something. Bad faith posting or genocide cheerleading sucks no matter from whom, and there’s no law of nature that prevents Anglos from constructively contributing to conversations. “Ameriposting” complaints are all about American exceptionalists talking about America in the wrong thread. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 03:35
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. General chat thread could be in GBS. If a discussion isn't very "interesting" a mod can just shut it down like normal.
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Jan 22, 2022 04:05
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Grape posted:I think what the EE people don't like is international posters coming in talking about their countries like expendable chess pieces for the advancement of their FP fantasy football teams. I'm not an EE poster but if I was I think this would sum up my feelings.
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Jan 22, 2022 04:33
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. With all due respect, this would be a bad approach. What people have a problem with is not Americans (and others) contributing to the thread. The issue is low-information, drive-by posters who barge into the thread with a sneering disdain for the people who actually live through the region because ""america bad, russia good."
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Jan 22, 2022 04:48
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In practice it really does feel like a lot of you are just asking for people who disagree with you not to be allowed to post itt.
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Jan 22, 2022 05:15
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Sinteres posted:In practice it really does feel like a lot of you are just asking for people who disagree with you not to be allowed to post itt. I think QPQ answers this: QuoProQuid posted:With all due respect, this would be a bad approach. What people have a problem with is not Americans (and others) contributing to the thread. The issue is low-information, drive-by posters who barge into the thread with a sneering disdain for the people who actually live through the region because ""america bad, russia good."
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Jan 22, 2022 05:27
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Wistful of Dollars posted:I think QPQ answers this: Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but I feel like that's more words to basically say the same thing, in that people who disagree will be called low information posters or Russia shills who don't belong.
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Jan 22, 2022 05:30
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Koos Group posted:The events today reminded me of an idea I had, so I'd like to propose that to the thread now. EE posters have previously complained to me that international posters without as much knowledge of the region sometimes come into the thread and start discussions that are not very interesting to those who live there. Let clancychat and Olivier salad coexist you coward.
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