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Like if I carry my team but die, I'm going to matched with another low MMR killer and team. How can BHVR not see the problem with this?
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Jan 21, 2022 14:34
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temple posted:Like if I carry my team but die, I'm going to matched with another low MMR killer and team. How can BHVR not see the problem with this? It truly is baffling. Equally baffling, from BHVR's point of view eight hooks and zero kills is equal to getting a 0 hook 5 gen stomp. A Bubba tunneling and basement camping one person out of the game (and then losing 5 gens and the game) is a better performance and more of a win. Anyone who stops to think about this for even a moment realizes that we're in a game where "winning" and "losing" are extremely difficult to define, and therefore we shouldn't use those as metrics for performance. Instead look at how many chases a survivor (or a killer) took, and how much of a percentage of those they won and lost. How many gens did they do? How many survivors did they hook? How many times did they hit with their power vs. miss with it? How long were their chases? You know, collect statistics like actual sports teams do to analyze their players' individual performances. If you ran the killer for four gens but got killed at the end game, you should probably be playing against better killers, and if 85% of your chases end in the survivor escaping and you missed most of your skill uses, you probably went up against too skilled opponents. (In case non sports fans aren't aware, football teams for instance collect all kinds of data on their players. Heat maps of where they were positionally, how many times they took on opponents and how often they dribbled past them vs. lost the ball, how many passes they attempted in different categories, how many progressive passes they made, how they fared in aerial duels etc. And football is an order of magnitude more complicated than DBD) Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 15:02
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:It truly is baffling. Counterpoint: that's hard work when they can just say "lol escapes/kills go brrrrrr"
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Jan 21, 2022 16:04
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Yeah, I really don't know why they didn't make it hook states instead of kills/escapes. It's just a more granular and more accurate version of the same thing, why not use it? Obviously have a caveat for moris/tombstones/headpops and such that treats a miscellaneous death as being hooked for the full 3 stages, but otherwise it's super straightforward, so I'm actively convinced that the programmers/designers in charge must just be loving lazy. The devs argued the point of "someone escapes, but it's technically a loss?!", and yeah, if the killer beats the poo poo out of the whole team and hooks the gently caress out of them, limping out at the last second clearly isn't as good as a flawless victory 5-gen 0-hook sweep. On top of that, why the gently caress is the win/loss rating for survivors treated as an individual thing? It's a team game for them, how many of your teammates survive as well is important when part of your job in the game is saving people from being killed on hooks. If you sacrifice yourself to save two survivors from the basement at the end and they escape, does that make them epic pro-gamers for getting unhooked while you're just some lovely scrub who died? By the current MMR, unhooking someone after the gates are powered is an actively poor decision to make instead of just peace-ing out the nearest exit. The entire team of survivors should get the same score for the whole team's performance to determined MMR changes.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:17
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:You know, collect statistics like actual sports teams do to analyze their players' individual performances. If you ran the killer for four gens but got killed at the end game, you should probably be playing against better killers, and if 85% of your chases end in the survivor escaping and you missed most of your skill uses, you probably went up against too skilled opponents. Whoa whoa whoa, slow your roll, and hold your horses. This kinda uppity well thought out idea has no place in BHVR staff's line of thought. Is it truly a win? I think not sir. 1s and 0s, Wins and Losses, Life and Death... that's the way to balance matchups. It is spoken. Mukaikubo posted:Counterpoint: that's hard work when they can just say "lol escapes/kills go brrrrrr" Damnit I hate when my comedy verbose response gets beat by the comedy simpleton response. Comfortador fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 16:20
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Some killers kill fast. Whether its their power or their skill. So they don't want to punish someone for playing well like the old system did. That's the only improvement. But they have to account for players that are lazy and camp or tunnel. I was going to play survivor to red and switch to killer. It takes so long, its not fun. I don't care anymore. They put time and effort into making a worse system for everyone. Its not worth deconstructing.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:26
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On the other hand now when I do my preferred horror villain thing of "make sure everyone is hooked once, then make sure everyone is hooked twice, and then and only then start killing people, and only more than 2 of them if they really pissed you off by shittery (not being good at the game, but shittery- y'all know what I mean)" makes sure my MMR is in a long-term steady decline while I also have less stress and I get just fountains of bloodpoints for myself and all the survivors, so good job BHVR
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Jan 21, 2022 16:31
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MMR being based solely on escapes for survivors is really fine, MMR systems work best when they are simple and people who contribute will escape far more often than those who hide and go for hatch. Scoring as a team would definitely be better than the current system though so altruism isn't punished once the gates are open. Hooks need to count for something though and killer MMR needs to be way more stable.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:32
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What gets me about not balancing around hook states is, setting aside what does and doesn't count as a win, you want to aim for 8~ hook states a game because if you have that many you know everyone at least got to play a game of Dead By Daylight. If you can't hit that one way or another, it's probably been an unsatisfying stomp for someone and matchmaking has failed. It's something they should be tracking anyway.
Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 16:44
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There's no benefit to increasing your mmr. You don't even have bragging rights because its invisible. BHVR doesn't understand that players aren't playing for other people's enjoyment. Eventually, people play for their enjoyment. If I lead the killer on a 2-3 gen chase, I usually get 1-2 hooked. Because new players are terrible at rescues and what is rational for a killer? Let me get unhooked, healed, lead them on another 2-3 gen chase and lose? Or tunnel me out and 4k because the rest of the team sucks? So what becomes rational for me? Play fun perks or play DS/DH/BT/whatever to survive?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:46
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I'm baffled why they made a new bad system when they already tally your Gen Progress/Altruism/Looping/Etc as Survivor and Displeased/Brutal/Ruthless/Merciless as Killer. You can hack a Brutal and safety pip even if you get your rear end kicked by a 0 kill shut out, it's why you take every match dead seriously when going for rank 1, at least in the old days. It's also an easy way for a survivor to feel they did well even if it isn't obvious or they died in the end. I did a gen, looped the killer until he wrote a salty bullying post about it, did two hook saves and ten heals and he NOEDs me in the end and my MMR is going lower? With my 32K Big Survivor On Campus score?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:52
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I like that the best way to level up your favorite Survivor is to play a bunch of Killer games.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:28
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I read that The Pig can force Survivors to exit by dropping them right on the exit boundary, and that doing this will not cause the reverse bear trap to go off. Does this work for all Killers? Can I have Freddy down a Survivor, pick them up, carry them to the exit boundary, hit "R" and watch as they're forced to escape the trial?
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Jan 21, 2022 18:32
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Lonjon posted:I read that The Pig can force Survivors to exit by dropping them right on the exit boundary, and that doing this will not cause the reverse bear trap to go off. Does this work for all Killers? Can I have Freddy down a Survivor, pick them up, carry them to the exit boundary, hit "R" and watch as they're forced to escape the trial? I dunno about the Pig's traps, but killers can position themselves so that when the survivor is dropped (always from the killer's left side) they get pushed out. You have to have them dangling over the gate while looking to the right side, and move just slightly away from the gate to have it work right.
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Jan 21, 2022 18:37
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temple posted:There's no benefit to increasing your mmr. You don't even have bragging rights because its invisible. BHVR doesn't understand that players aren't playing for other people's enjoyment. Eventually, people play for their enjoyment. If I lead the killer on a 2-3 gen chase, I usually get 1-2 hooked. Because new players are terrible at rescues and what is rational for a killer? Let me get unhooked, healed, lead them on another 2-3 gen chase and lose? Or tunnel me out and 4k because the rest of the team sucks? So what becomes rational for me? Play fun perks or play DS/DH/BT/whatever to survive? Especially because, queue times as they are, MMR matters less and less. I try to play whatever side has the better queue, since I don't want to wait around for a game, and outside of school hours, it's always killer at this point. And killer pops instantly. Does it really make sense that they instantly matched me up with a lobby extremely close to me in MMR? Or did I get instantly matched with 4 people who have been in queue for 8 minutes, screw the ratings? I have to guess it's the second case, so MMR is just taking a back seat to the disproportionate queues.
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Jan 21, 2022 18:47
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Patrick you loving idiot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw-7AiHhgkk This is one of the dumbest things I've heard.
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Jan 22, 2022 18:44
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The constant refrain from gamers of “The devs don’t play/understand their own game” is basically always dumb bullshit so I’d like to congratulate BHVR on making it real.
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Jan 22, 2022 18:48
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I'm more and more convinced they have an algorithm of who's buying the most lovely cosmetics and 100% of the game "balance" is catering to who's on top of that at the moment
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Jan 22, 2022 18:57
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What would be the best killer to always drag someone to a basement. I want to gently caress about with a dumb build. I know perk wise what teachable perks I need but I'm more curious if there are any killers with powers that make carrying a survivor to a basement easier? Perk wise I'm thinking agitation, iron grip, territorial imperative and monstrous shrine.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:03
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Kwolok posted:What would be the best killer to always drag someone to a basement. I want to gently caress about with a dumb build. I know perk wise what teachable perks I need but I'm more curious if there are any killers with powers that make carrying a survivor to a basement easier? Mad Grit and Starstruck with Agitation and Iron Grasp is pretty much the basement warrior build. Territorial imperative is pretty pointless unless you really want to camp the basement, in which case you'd be better off embracing your inner rear end in a top hat and use Leatherface with Insidious.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:06
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Lately I've been letting survivors go instead of grinding them down if the match has been long or if I've already sacrificed two of their teammates. Half the time I do this, they'll go halfway between the exit switch and the exit line, turn around, nod/crouch while facing me, drop their carried item, then walk away. I'm a ping pong psychopath with an amazing drug addiction that has no use for a flashlight, but it's really kinda touching all the same.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:07
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Lonjon posted:Lately I've been letting survivors go instead of grinding them down if the match has been long or if I've already sacrificed two of their teammates. Half the time I do this, they'll go halfway between the exit switch and the exit line, turn around, nod/crouch while facing me, drop their carried item, then walk away. I'm a ping pong psychopath with an amazing drug addiction that has no use for a flashlight, but it's really kinda touching all the same. yeah, leaving your item as an offering for the killer is A Thing among survivors
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Jan 22, 2022 19:08
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Dropping their items is the universal sign of "Thanks for being a nice killer"
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Jan 22, 2022 19:09
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Sometimes it's a white flag! If I'm caught opening the exit gate and I know escape is 100% impossible, I'll just kneel and offer what I have. Usually it's an empty medkit or something, even, but sometimes it's enough. The domogorgon nods in agreement and chills while I finish opening the door
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Jan 22, 2022 19:18
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Medullah posted:Mad Grit and Starstruck with Agitation and Iron Grasp is pretty much the basement warrior build. Territorial imperative is pretty pointless unless you really want to camp the basement, in which case you'd be better off embracing your inner rear end in a top hat and use Leatherface with Insidious. Yeah I considered Leatherface but he's so boring to play imo, was hoping there was someone more interesting. Insidious makes sense but I don't want to completely camp the basement which is why I thought territorial might be good but maybe it's trash
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Jan 22, 2022 19:22
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I don't know if you own Demogorgon or not, but if you do, this build is mean/fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-qix4OYfzU&hd=1
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Jan 22, 2022 19:37
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rydiafan posted:I don't know if you own Demogorgon or not, but if you do, this build is mean/fun. What were the other perks he was running?
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Jan 22, 2022 19:53
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Kwolok posted:What were the other perks he was running? Looks like Ruin, Make Your Choice and Pop Goes the Weasel.
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Jan 22, 2022 19:57
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Wraith is evil playing the Make Your Choice basement game. Get someone in the basement, go away. Swoop in when the unhook happens, you're fast enough to make it back. Proceed to go "Naw fam, I'm just gonna stand here on the stairs and neither of you can get out without me hitting one of you"
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Jan 22, 2022 20:10
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My favorite basement killer is Trapper. Run the purple Trapper Bag addon so you start with all your traps, run the brown Makeshift Wrap addon so stepping in your traps just disarms them, and then run a blueprint offering to put the basement in the killer shack. Saturate the shack with traps including every door and window, find and down just one person and drag them into the basement with Iron Grasp + Agitation, and then no one who enters that shack is ever leaving again. Don't even break the pallet if they ever throw it down, you can just treat it like a window then and trap both sides of it so that disarming it from one side still doesn't get them in or out of the building. You don't even need to camp it, just wait for some of your traps to be disarmed and then come back and re-set them behind the rescuing survivors to lock them in. Survivors get really salty about that build in the chat too, so that's a nice bonus. Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jan 22, 2022 |
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Jan 22, 2022 20:19
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Vanguard Warden posted:My favorite basement killer is Trapper. Run the purple Trapper Bag addon so you start with all your traps, run the brown Makeshift Wrap addon so stepping in your traps just disarms them, and then run a blueprint offering to put the basement in the killer shack. Saturate the shack with traps including every door and window, find and down just one person and drag them into the basement with Iron Grasp + Agitation, and then no one who enters that shack is ever leaving again. Don't even break the pallet if they ever throw it down, you can just treat it like a window then and trap both sides of it so that disarming it from one side still doesn't get them in or out of the building. You don't even need to camp it, just wait for some of your traps to be disarmed and then come back and re-set them behind the rescuing survivors to lock them in. I have agitation on trapper most of the time as it's so easy to just become a basement trapper depending on where they go down. My favorite spicy trap is near the hooks just around the corner at the bottom making sure to hook the person closest to the stairs. Probably get someone 75% of the time with it. The salt is always lovely, I'm trapper what'd you expect me to do. Not setup somewhere?
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Jan 22, 2022 22:06
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Lonjon posted:Lately I've been letting survivors go instead of grinding them down if the match has been long or if I've already sacrificed two of their teammates. Half the time I do this, they'll go halfway between the exit switch and the exit line, turn around, nod/crouch while facing me, drop their carried item, then walk away. I'm a ping pong psychopath with an amazing drug addiction that has no use for a flashlight, but it's really kinda touching all the same. Yeah I do this on survivor a lot if I don't need the item for an archive or something. It's like "a gift for you!  "Survivors can so often be toxic so I like to try and be the opposite. Giving your item is like the ultimate anti-toxicity: this is objectively no benefit to me, in fact it is NEGATIVE benefit to me, I am voluntarily giving something away that cost me points to get, as a kind gesture to you. I do it any time that I happen to run into the killer at the gate and I have an item, or if the killer is being nice, etc. I love when it happens on Blight because it's such an intimidating killer who is known for being ruthless. One time I was playing this match on Yamaoka, I ran into this Jill on death hook who shook her head at me like "no, don't hook me" and I ran away because poo poo, I can't just hook a survivor without their consent. So I killed the rest of her team while she tried to do gens, occasionally running into her and being like "hey man you gotta get out of here". Finally it's down to her and Kate, and Kate realizes I've got her dead to rights. She teabags at me and does a "come here" gesture, so I'm like, okay, are both of you friendly now? Maybe you can farm together? But then she leads me to Jill and points at her. Like, trying to sell her out to earn my favor. Jill gets up from the gen she was working on and stares at her, then me. Kate does not realize what a huge mistake she's just made. I down Kate and throw her on a hook and she rots while Jill does the rest of the gens. At the end, Jill drops the iridescent map she brought into the match and leaves, and I slam my face into a wall 5 times to show my appreciation.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:13
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I also really like making friends as a killer. But if they are running borrowed time, decisive strike or dead hard they have to die as a matter of principle.
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Jan 23, 2022 01:01
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Kwolok posted:I also really like making friends as a killer. But if they are running borrowed time, decisive strike or dead hard they have to die as a matter of principle. I wouldn't treat BT the same as the other two. Or DS, even. BT is something a lot of people run in solo queue to help with tunneling/just to be courteous to the person they're unhooking. I used to run it all the time. Some people will get pissed at their fellow survivors for not running it (ask me about getting bitched at for not having it when none of my teammates had it either!). DS, too, is something a lot of people will switch on after getting tunneled to poo poo. They are not meant to be lovely to you, they are meant to safeguard against lovely tunneling killers that make games incredibly unfun. Both of these are measures you can avoid easily by just not going after the person who was unhooked. Of course, if they're an rear end in a top hat and bait out DS then feel free to punish them yeah. Dead Hard, on the other hand, I am very tired of seeing.
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Jan 23, 2022 01:21
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Tiny Myers posted:I wouldn't treat BT the same as the other two. Or DS, even. BT is something a lot of people run in solo queue to help with tunneling/just to be courteous to the person they're unhooking. I used to run it all the time. Some people will get pissed at their fellow survivors for not running it (ask me about getting bitched at for not having it when none of my teammates had it either!). DS, too, is something a lot of people will switch on after getting tunneled to poo poo. They are not meant to be lovely to you, they are meant to safeguard against lovely tunneling killers that make games incredibly unfun. Both of these are measures you can avoid easily by just not going after the person who was unhooked. Of course, if they're an rear end in a top hat and bait out DS then feel free to punish them yeah. I understand your point but I still have a code.
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Jan 23, 2022 01:30
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Just had a hilarious end to a miserable match. Was playing as Pinhead, and wasn't having much luck. I downed one survivor right away at the start, but the rest seemed way above my skill level and the map was Ormond, which led to a lot of misery around the jungle gyms and pallets. Right at the end I managed to snag someone on their way out, hooked them, feinted that I was chasing the survivor in the distance who I'd never catch before they left, and looped back around to the hook to chase the Feng who had been the most obnoxious the whole game and was going for the save. She had a flashlight and was clicking away the entire match. Only actually blinded me once, but largely just used it to be toxic. Managed to hit her once in the final chase, but she was about to escape when...she turned around to teabag and click at me. I possessed chained her, slowly walked around my chains, and smacked her for the down and hooked her. Never had a 1k feel as good as that.
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Jan 23, 2022 06:44
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Dodging SWF makes this game 100000% more enjoyable. Edit: Trying to learn nurse and watching a video. At this timestamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwYQImUDgXo&t=1138s he shows some recommended perk. There are two with entity claws and a generator. I know one is hex: ruin but I cannot figure out the other. Kwolok fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 06:56
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The top row is Nurse's Calling/Sloppy Butcher/Ruin/Corrupt Intervention. Which strikes me as an odd combo since if you block off gens with Corrupt, everyone's gonna occupy themselves trying to find your Ruin
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Jan 23, 2022 10:00
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Sloppy is also a bit outdated in the current meta, isn't it? Infectious Fright is another good one for Nurse if you're going for Plague's perks anyway, if a bit cliche.
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Jan 23, 2022 10:27
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Tiny Myers posted:Sloppy is also a bit outdated in the current meta, isn't it? Infectious Fright is another good one for Nurse if you're going for Plague's perks anyway, if a bit cliche. Sloppy augments pressure, if you're not applying sufficient pressure, it's doing nothing, on someone like nurse who is an extremely snowball based killer, it's still a valid perk because it helps slow down healing by a decent amount - which when combined with nurses calling really helps a great deal.
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Jan 23, 2022 10:35
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