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wdarkk posted:The CIC was invented during WW2 to solve this sort of problem, after the clusterfucks in the Solomon Islands. It's a room deep in the ship with all sorts of displays. luv 2 stumble into a fight and lose 2 admirals on the same night
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Jan 20, 2022 20:01
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I feel like this comparison is somewhat of an oversimplification. The captain in the conning tower can still get data from sources outside of the tower, especially radar arrays and lookouts. I can accept that it would be more challenging to convert that data into a useful situational report when you're inside the tower than when outside of it, but you wouldn't be as blind as a buttoned-up WW2-era tank. You're ignoring the whole "everyone dies of concussive force or spalling, if it gets hit, anyways"
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Jan 20, 2022 20:01
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bewbies posted:That said, if I'm a sailor or soldier or any other kind of fighting person, keeping my command team alive and in the fight and making smart decisions is one of the best ways to help me get through the fight alive, even if I'm at more direct risk than they. You are missing the point that if your conning tower eats a large-caliber shell, even if the armor is not penetrated the people inside are absolutely not in the fight anymore. The hit is going to ring it like a bell, with enough force to incapacitate or outright kill anyone in it. For heavy armor to protect you, you need to have rooms and bulkheads between it and you. Ship designers understood this, and did it everywhere they could, but they had no room to do it in the conning tower. There are serious arguments that a conning tower amplifies damage to the command team when fighting at long range. Conning towers are really very useful at short ranges when every light gun on the other side is aiming for your bridge or when fighting against aircraft or the like. wdarkk posted:The CIC was invented during WW2 to solve this sort of problem, after the clusterfucks in the Solomon Islands. It's a room deep in the ship with all sorts of displays. Yes, absolutely, once you have radar there is a very clear correct answer to this dilemma, and that's putting your command crew deep inside the ship where they actually have protection with a nice big radar display. Tuna-Fish fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 20:08
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So when shell and shell slams into the belt armor, is that causing concussive damage, spalling, stuff like that? Does the armor degrade over shots? Is belt armor just a part of the ship, so the way it is fixed properly is cutting out the damaged area and...hm. I'm picturing some sort of smelter that just glorps liquid steel into the hole left behind.
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Jan 20, 2022 20:13
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Armour was rarely structural, although for weight saving reasons it was highly desirable, the British and the USN were the only two to really have sufficiently advanced metallurgy to produce armour that was both hard enough to be armour and tough enough to be useful contructionally, and even then led to problems, see the loss of PoW where the belt wasn't properly attached at the lower edge. The Germans tried it with Bismark but the result was too tough and not hard enough, ironically their armour plate was arguably too hard and not tough enough. Generally speaking the bulkheads of the TPS doubled effectively as the spall liner, although some ships certainly had a spall liner as well. Richelieu had I think 6" or possibly 8" of teak behind her belt for example. Generally speaking armour did not degrade noticeably during a battle unlike you might see on say late war German tanks, both due to the superior metallurgy of the battleships but also because considering the size of a battleship and the accuracy of the gunnery, they just weren't very likely to get hit repeatedly in the same place. Degradation tended to be more of a strategic than tactical consideration. Repairing, particularity actually from near misses, could take a long loving time. A near miss from a high capacity shell or, even worse, a bomb or mine would cause buckling along a large section of the ship, the ship would then have to be dry docked, the side cut open and all effected frames cut out, replaced, the armour put back in, and then finally the out skin of the ship welded back up. Needless to say that was a lot of loving effort, and for several older ships towards the end of the war the allies just stopped bothering and patched instead, Warspite being a good example of a ship who was basically hosed by 1944 and they essentially stopped even trying to properly repair her.
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Jan 20, 2022 20:32
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:luv 2 stumble into a fight and lose 2 admirals on the same night Wasn't one of them friendly fire? Fake Edit: Yes
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Jan 20, 2022 20:36
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quote:Conning towers are really very useful at short ranges when every light gun on the other side is aiming for your bridge or when fighting against aircraft or the like. Right, wasn’t Admiral Abe at First Guadalcanal wounded by automatic fire from a USN tin can that passed right under Hiei’s guns? IIRC he and his staff were out on the bridge when several USN ships all murderglomped his flagship. (Then again, considering the circumstances of the fight, I doubt any admiral, USN or IJN, would’ve traded their bridge position for the conning tower, since at least from the bridge you could see what was happening. Having your key decision-maker be all but blind, in an era before electronic displays, seems Generally Bad.)
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Jan 20, 2022 20:49
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Nebakenezzer posted:So when shell and shell slams into the belt armor, is that causing concussive damage, spalling, stuff like that? Does the armor degrade over shots? Is belt armor just a part of the ship, so the way it is fixed properly is cutting out the damaged area and...hm. I'm picturing some sort of smelter that just glorps liquid steel into the hole left behind. the armored belt is made up of a number of armor plates that are affixed to the structural frames of the ship. Plates must be replaced individually as the metallurgy involved is highly specific and complex. They are not repairable.
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Jan 20, 2022 20:51
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:How do you feel about tank commanders operating unbuttoned? 
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Jan 21, 2022 00:29
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bibliosabreur posted:Right, wasn’t Admiral Abe at First Guadalcanal wounded by automatic fire from a USN tin can that passed right under Hiei’s guns? IIRC he and his staff were out on the bridge when several USN ships all murderglomped his flagship. Likewise, Admiral Lee and Captain Davis were both on the Navigation Bridge of USS Washington during Second Guadalcanal
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Jan 21, 2022 08:47
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Battle #20: Richelieu vs USS Pennsylvania First: we got an UPDATE shortly after our last battle. The big change for our ends appears to be a very revamped AI, improving evasion, rangekeeping, and aggression. I'm going to just run this battle and see what happens.  I'm going to guess this goes a lot like the previous fight. Penn will take a beating, but the reality is there's little she can do to Richelieu that Richelieu can't do back to her but worse. Rich's performance in round 1 was one of the most impressive in the field, but this fight should be a much tougher one for her.  Rich looks even more fearsome with her NEW AI calling the shots.  I have to admit, I may miss the tuba noises. These ships are still obstinate and inelegant, but they try so hard.  Rich's long range fire is very accurate, but she does not score any hits until around 20km. I think this is a mix of bad luck and her layout, which I'll explain more later.  Penn's long range fire is also characteristically accurate, but those 14" guns lack pop against later ships. Rich is being FAR more aggressive than what we've seen in the past: it appears she's assessed Penn's guns as not a huge threat, and is rapidly closing the range in order to better rip her open.  Rich's first hit cuts through Penn's deck at around 20km. This is a very dangerous spot for a penetration, but damage in this case is only moderate.  As the range closes, hits become fast and furious on Penn's bow.  Rich's NEW AI is quite clever. It closes to secondary range and whips her stern around so her amusingly concentrated rear battery can play as well.  There's an interesting thing about Rich: her battery is very, very concentrated, physically speaking. This means her dispersion is quite a bit less than ships whose batteries are spread across their ~800 ft length. I think this is one of the reasons why Rich's long range fire doesn't tend to score a lot of hits, but at medium range her fire becomes absolutely murderous: when she DOES hit, it tends to be with multiple shell simultaneously.  Penn takes a bad hit: two engines are knocked out, and major flooding amidships. The fact she's getting hit with multiple shells simultaneously causes fires and flooding in particular to be much worse as Penn's damage control teams are unable to deal with one problem before another arises.  Penn has popped Rich a few times, but can only get through her armor somewhere other than the citadel.  A good example of Rich's machine-gun like fire: this was SIX 15" shells hitting Penn on the belt simultaneously. They caused massive flooding.  Penn develops a severe list as the flooding gets worse and worse.  And now, we're to this point. Again. Penn has no more engine power. Her conn is toast. Her lowers are full of water. Most other ships at this point tend to blow up or roll over. But these drat Standards just...sit there, and take fire. And continue shooting back. Every single one of these ships wound up like this (more or less) in all of their fights, but finally sinking them takes nearly as long as it takes to get them into this state in the first place.  A big hit: Penn hits Rich's conning tower. If nothing else, Penn killed the French captain as retribution for their destruction.  This took a good long time, but Penn finally sinks from her waterline being turned into swiss cheese. Rich's much more aggressive tactics led to this happening much faster and with much less ammo expended than other fights, but Penn still took a good long time to finally submit, and got a French captain in the process.  Comparable to, if somewhat faster than Vanguard. Rich's mid-range gunnery is tremendous; she and Vanguard are going to be one hell of a matchup. Penn was game as were all the Standards, but we see again that when they're up against someone just as tough or tougher than they, their advantages slip away pretty quickly.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:47
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 At least she shot the French superbote in the face! Godspeed, tuba noises.
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Jan 21, 2022 18:01
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If a French captain does not get mortally wounded in the line of duty it'd be a disgrace. The floating tuba population decreases ever more.
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Jan 21, 2022 18:21
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In game terms (i.e. how the engine determines things), what is it about the Standards that make them so tenacious compared to other ships? Is it just a matter of thick all-or-nothing armor, or is there something else going on below the hood?
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Jan 21, 2022 18:47
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I suspect they are also being given very good bulkheads.
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Jan 21, 2022 18:57
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I believe Bewbies said that all of the ships are getting their most recent refit, or their most recent refit as of the start of WW2, or something like that. This could also imply benefiting from things like improvements in damage control protocols, and the USN's damage control was generally very good. I don't know how this is modeled in-game, though.
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Jan 21, 2022 19:08
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This also means that ships that survived were able to get the latest and greatest refits. A solid hull with the best possible radar and fire control fire control is better than a super ship that never lasted long enough to get the same. USN Standards largely survived to get the best of battle tested combat systems and their hulls and main batteries were still acceptable and competitive against most battleships. On top of that, USN damage control was excellent and the Standards had exceptional armor when they were first built.
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Jan 21, 2022 20:30
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This thread does make me wonder how the South Dakota class battleship of 1920 would have been had they been completed. Essentially a standard with 2 extra knots of speed and 12 16" guns, they would probably have been a tough nut to crack...
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Jan 21, 2022 21:03
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Tomn posted:In game terms (i.e. how the engine determines things), what is it about the Standards that make them so tenacious compared to other ships? Is it just a matter of thick all-or-nothing armor, or is there something else going on below the hood? They have pretty good quality armor and a lot of it, all-or-nothing layout, pretty good barbettes/bulkheads, a lot of turrets, and mostly updated fire control. So, you're basically getting close to late 30's battleship toughness and accuracy, albeit very very very slowly. Basically, the parts of the ship that are difficult to upgrade were already pretty good on the Standards, and the stuff that was easy to upgrade was.
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Jan 21, 2022 21:12
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As others have said, the most preferable way to judge the standards is to get 6 or so of them and put them up against 6 of their contemporaries, with both sides acting as a single formation. This results in the lack of speed becomes less of an issue, and the penetration problems would also be less pronounced. The Standards primary true failing was that WWII was fought in a very different manner than what anyone thought before hand, and the newest hulls were 17 years old by the time war broke out. Technological advances in other fields (namely aircraft) simply pushed tactics in a direction that the Standards simply could not function in. With that said, its no surprise that they fall apart when up up against larger designs in one-on-one engagements. They weren't meant for duels like that, and it shows.
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Jan 21, 2022 22:03
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Oh wow, I just noticed the "Maintenance per month" statistic. Please tell me it is ballpark accurate
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Jan 21, 2022 22:29
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Is part of Richelieu's long range accuracy issue related to quad turrets? I think there are firing penalties at various earlier stages for triples and quads which go away over time. Does Richelieu suffer from those penalties at all?
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Jan 21, 2022 22:48
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"tuba noises" makes me laugh every time.
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Jan 22, 2022 07:31
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How big fights can the game handle? Would it be able to simulate the Battle of Tsushima?
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Jan 22, 2022 11:35
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ChubbyChecker posted:How big fights can the game handle? Would it be able to simulate the Battle of Tsushima? I don't know if it has the granularity to replicate the swarms of sharks following the russian boats to eat the spoiled meat of zoo animals commandeered for culinary purposes
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Jan 22, 2022 11:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:How big fights can the game handle? Would it be able to simulate the Battle of Tsushima? One of the in-game missions in the scenario mode is meant to be a part of Tsushima. It's actually pretty fun!
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Jan 22, 2022 14:25
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Tsushima if the Russian fleet hadn't been worn down, demoralized, low on ammo, and generally a mess would be interesting. Can the AI simulate their "take 500 shots to sink one fishing trawler," though?
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Jan 22, 2022 16:35
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Cobalt-60 posted:Tsushima if the Russian fleet hadn't been worn down, demoralized, low on ammo, and generally a mess would be interesting. Can the AI simulate their "take 500 shots to sink one fishing trawler," though? "your warship is infested with Iguanas"
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Jan 22, 2022 17:11
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Look, all they needed to do was develop lasers so as to arm the sharks following them.
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Jan 22, 2022 17:57
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The real solution was to double down on the apex predator of the food chain of those animals. Or look for some British officers on "shooting leave".
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Jan 22, 2022 20:04
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Tree Bucket posted:I don't know if it has the granularity to replicate the swarms of sharks following the russian boats to eat the spoiled meat of zoo animals commandeered for culinary purposes  "Hullwebs posted:To lift their spirits, the crews collected exotic pets on shore visits - including a crocodile and a poisonous snake that caused a panic on one battleship when it wrapped itself around the guns and then bit the commanding officer. The fleet turned into a floating zoo as a bizarre menagerie of birds and animals was left free to roam the decks. Events took a more severe downturn when the cooling plant on the "Esperance", the fleet's refrigerated supply ship, broke down. A lot of rotting meat had to be jettisoned which resulted in the fleet being followed by sharks.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:32
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The journey to Tsushima is the most Russian story in the world. A long path through incredible suffering and strange trials, endured to make it to the battle wherein they were sunk in an afternoon and all ended in futility.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:33
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And a passably competent admiral's steady descent into madness.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:35
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You can't help but feel for them and their commander, Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky. Honestly seemed a decent guy. Less so the Kamchatka, though.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:37
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The Battle of Tsushima Straits is basically the historical precedent for Welcome To loving Boatmurdered.
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Jan 22, 2022 20:39
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Night10194 posted:The Battle of Tsushima Straits is basically the historical precedent for Welcome To loving Boatmurdered. This is a quote for the goddamned ages.
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Jan 22, 2022 21:32
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It could be a fantastic black comedy Russian web series in the better reality where they aren't Putin brained.
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Jan 22, 2022 22:07
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SeanBeansShako posted:The real solution was to double down on the apex predator of the food chain of those animals. Given the fleet nearly incited a war between the Russian and British Empire when they opened fire on the Dogger Bank fishing fleet (because they were clearly Japanese torpedo boats... in the North Sea), I don't think finding some British officers would have helped much.
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Jan 22, 2022 23:47
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Lord Koth posted:Given the fleet nearly incited a war between the Russian and British Empire when they opened fire on the Dogger Bank fishing fleet (because they were clearly Japanese torpedo boats... in the North Sea), I don't think finding some British officers would have helped much. There are plenty of British officers who would have approved of firing on the fishing fleet
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Jan 23, 2022 01:32
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Yeah, but only if they got to do it. Nobody picks on my brother but me.
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Jan 23, 2022 01:55
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