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checkplease posted:And until Zizek actually puts in the minimum effort of watching the film instead of taking the lazy way, then there’s no reason to debate his opinions. How can we when we are not even playing on the same field of information. You are not communicating with Slavoj Zizek; you are communicating with me. I am saying that Zizek's analysis of the film's plot is true and accurate. In order to refute my claim, you must demonstrate that Zizek wrote something untrue and/or inaccurate. My wager is that you cannot. This is why you are going off-field and talking about 'laziness'. You don't care about whether the statement is true but, rather, about the care-levels themselves - the level of emotional investment, enjoyment, etc. Because Zizek didn't watch the colourful pictures with the Dolby surround sound, he didn't experience the pleasure. Zizek consequently cannot provide a product evaluation for consumers - e.g. "I liked it. It is worth subscribing to HBO MAX." Instead, he is merely concerned with whether events in the movie are stupid. They are.
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Jan 22, 2022 23:46
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SMG being Ben Shapiro this whole time really took everyone by surprise. V I know, but the condescending "Debate Me" stuff is obnoxious, especially when it was applied to the earlier conversations around the rejection of queer readings.V Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 00:01
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Timeless Appeal posted:SMG being Ben Shapiro this whole time really took everyone by surprise. Hey now, I don't like him much either but that's going too far.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:08
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My guess is that refuting Zizeks claims means you will be the judge. And you have made your decision already. So we can guess how any attempts will go. But this is a distraction from the much simpler point. If you are going to write a critique, watch the film. We should value first hand experience and not settle for less. Zizek only needed to either spend 2.5 hours watching the film or simply say ‘hey, I don’t think this film is for me’ and not write anything more.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:13
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Like I said, the only interesting part of Zizek's review is the China scaremongering. He just couldn't resist, could he?DeimosRising posted:The problem is it would be better just not to raise so much of the crops used to feed them. You can't use west texas semi arid flatlands or burnt down amazonia to raise human food crops (or not very effectively). But you also don't have to put those lands under production, using whatever fertilizers and fuel needed to do so and producing the various by products of actually raising the animals etc. It would definitely be more environmentally sound to raise and eat less meat but it's not because you could be eating their feed or their feed land could be used to produce like...rice or something. In this sense meat production is very "efficient" because it means you can convert otherwise less useful land or unusable calories into foodstuffs, but it's not necessary for us (as it would have been for many past societies that needed those extra calories/food variety) and the knock on consequences are pretty lovely. Thanks, that's interesting.
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Jan 23, 2022 00:24
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I saw this last night and I'm pretty let down. It felt like I was watching a marvel/star wars movie. There were some cool themes but they were all delivered with the subtly of a sledgehammer. The action scenes and score seemed pretty bad and it felt like the whole thing was relying on member-berries, right down to almost every fight scene being worse versions of the fight choreography from previous films (smith fight mirroring matrix1, the exiles mirroring the same fighting moves in the chateu from reloaded, etc). I don't get too  about entertainment media these days, but this just really was disappointing to me since this is one of my favorite franchises, despite 2 and 3 being pretty flawed. It was just so full of little things that made me shake my head. Like in the matrix, the "deja vu" scene was such a cool concept to me because it linked the strange feeling of deja vu (the dreamlike feeling of having experienced something before) to the simulation being altered and creating a tangible feeling for those inside. It was a cool idea; that that strange human feeling we all get now and then is related to being inside of a simulation and that simulation being altered. They had a cat walk by twice, and then the entire team suddenly making GBS threads bricks about "are you sure? was it the same cat as before?" and neo being clueless about why they were all panicking that he had a brief moment of deja vu. In this new one there's literally a cat named deja-vu that is an actual in-game reset button for the analyst and he reaches out for it in the middle of a heated gunfight - like he needs his big red emergency button in cat form. Like come the gently caress on. It feels like it boiled off the surrealism and mystery into callbacks people would remember. I have a dozen other quibbles but I've written more than enough getting nerdmad about a movie. Meow Tse-tung fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 01:54
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We have a whole other forum dedicated purely to film critique. I don't see why it's getting on so many people's nerves to have a broader discussion in this one. There's more to talk about related to any specific film than "was it good" The zizek article is a troll but responding to it with "this man didn't do the work and can't engage in the discussion" is a very silly style of gatekeeping pointed at a man who isn't ever going to hear about this site.
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Jan 23, 2022 02:05
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I saw that the Animatrix was on HBO Max so I'm excited to watch it again. It has been a long, long, long time since I've watched all of the stories. e: The weirdest thing about Zizek Devoutism is that (almost?) nobody else really cares about him but Zizek quotes get dropped like everyone is supposed to be like "oh well, poo poo, you got me if that's what Zizek says."
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Jan 23, 2022 02:06
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checkplease posted:My guess is that refuting Zizeks claims means you will be the judge. And you have made your decision already. So we can guess how any attempts will go. Well, that's odd. Do you believe that I have a power over you?
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Jan 23, 2022 02:21
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There's a 100 pages of discussion about the matrix films. No one is saying to just post good or bad film review. I dont think its some strange form of gatekeeping to ask someone to watch the film they are choosing to critique. And agreed, Zizek is being called out in particular because his quotes get dropped so much. But ok, ill accept that some are ok with his reviews and move on. I do hope there is an animatrix 2. I also need to rewatch the first one, but I remember it having some interesting animation styles at least.
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Jan 23, 2022 02:23
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But you're not asking zizek to watch the film. He isn't here in this thread. His article does have something to do with the other films (he clearly has seen the first one) and therefore it's relevant to the matrix thread. Discussing why his reasons for not watching the film are right or wrong is potentially a fun discussion. If you don't want to engage with smg you don't have to but arguing that he shouldn't be trying to start a conversation around zizek's critique for reasons at such a remove is at the very least pointless if you've ever seen him in a thread before
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Jan 23, 2022 02:33
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This all reminds me of Neo in matrix 4. People keep wanting to engage him in fights and each time he ends them by force pushing the other party away. Ken Wilber stated the matrix as representing the mind, and so kung fu fights there were often battles of philosophy. Neo's choice to each time simply send the other party away was effectively a recognition that the debate was pointless and it was simpler to move on to his actual interests.
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Jan 23, 2022 02:34
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Original Smith got a lesson from Neo but took it in the exact opposite direction from Neo (nihilistic destruction vs hopeful cooperation). In Resurrections, Neo-Smith is the one giving Neo the important lesson, that playing by stupid rules is a trap that you can never win. Did Neo start doing the telekinectic pushing stuff before they got out of the cafe? I can't remember now but I think everyone before that was more straight fighting.
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Jan 23, 2022 02:44
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bushisms.txt posted:Spent the day watching the entire franchise and can safely say Revolutions is better than Reloaded Interesting that you liked revolutions more than reloaded. I like them both but tend to enjoy reloaded more as it gives the whole crew more to do. I think most discussion here on the action scenes have been that they lackluster compared to the older ones. What are your views on the film and its blocking?
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Jan 23, 2022 02:48
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Shiroc posted:Original Smith got a lesson from Neo but took it in the exact opposite direction from Neo (nihilistic destruction vs hopeful cooperation). In Resurrections, Neo-Smith is the one giving Neo the important lesson, that playing by stupid rules is a trap that you can never win. Did Neo start doing the telekinectic pushing stuff before they got out of the cafe? I can't remember now but I think everyone before that was more straight fighting. He first pushes against new Morpheus in the dojo. I think in the cafe scene he mostly struggles until he can reach trinity. Then its full on pushing (except that motorcycle punch). Trinity seems to be the trigger to his push each time. Remembering whats important to him, he gets past the fight.
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Jan 23, 2022 02:56
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Now that I've seen the movie, can I just say that whole discussion about how absurd it is trinity saw herself in a character was loving dumb. It shows the movies are used literally as the "scenes" of the video game Trinity looked at, so loving yeah, she might have seen herself in a video game.
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Jan 23, 2022 03:23
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I’m gonna gatekeep zizak and never let him in. He’s a stinky man and he can eat it
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Jan 23, 2022 03:37
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CelticPredator posted:I’m gonna gatekeep zizak and never let him in. He’s a stinky man and he can eat it If Zizek wrote that Neo dies at the end of the film by being hit by a truck, it would be trivially easy to prove otherwise. Instead, Zizek notes that the film ends with a regression into heteronormativity: "the old Hollywood formula of the production of a couple-matrix." This is a reference back to his 2005 analysis of Matrix 3: "Revolutions [has] potentially Fascist elements: although the (feminine) Oracle and the (masculine) Architect are both just programs, their difference is sexualized, so that the film's end is inscribed into the logic of the balance between the feminine and the masculine 'principles.'" That might sound abstract, but it's really not. The issue is simply that, after over twenty years to reflect on all the problematic stuff in the trilogy, the film fixates on achieving a sexual relationship as a distraction from life's ills. Quoting Adi Robertson, "the film barely bothers explaining what happened as a result of The Matrix Revolutions’ ending. [...] Neo himself has no interest in anything except rekindling his relationship with Trinity." This isn't just a neutral stupidity but potential fascism, because the harmony of the relationship is achieved through the elimination of the excessively-greedy villain and his legion of subhumans. There's a comedy torture sequence that leaves the heroes feeling empowered through violence, but no clue as to what they stand for otherwise. This is something I noted before Zizek's articles were published.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:. Quoting Adi Robertson, "the film barely bothers explaining what happened as a result of The Matrix Revolutions’ ending. [...] Neo himself has no interest in anything except rekindling his relationship with Trinity." More people should watch what they're trying to discuss, for everyone's sake. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 05:38
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I've enjoyed reading people's perspectives on the movie, but I just wish there was a way to not have SMG get around my ignore list by people quoting his posts while engaging with him.
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Jan 23, 2022 05:44
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bushisms.txt posted:Did this person not watch the movie either? I read that review and I'm honestly not sure. The movie isn't quick cut action like borne the reviewer cites, the action is actually very clear I definitely disagree there. The exile fight especially kept cutting away from the action to close-ups of the Merovingian and angles that made it hard to see what was going on, and blows often didn't even seem like they were connecting. It was pretty terrible compared to the clearly choreographed fights in the original. I've talked to a few people who feel the same way, so I know its not just us who noticed it.
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Jan 23, 2022 06:29
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bushisms.txt posted:Did this person not watch the movie either? I read that review and I'm honestly not sure. The movie isn't quick cut action like borne the reviewer cites, the action is actually very clear and the reviewer barely touches on the analyst and agent Smith, instead just calling them as the collective villains. Their review reads like something the movie would produce ironically. Maybe you are lying that you saw the movie, or maybe Zizek is lying about having skipped the movie. Maybe, shortly after publishing the article, Zizek watched the movie twice. Maybe I've watched it six or seven times. You can never truly know whether a person has watched a movie. Under these conditions, you can either worry forever that you are being 'trolled', or you can accept the truth: it doesn't actually matter. The Mona Lisa wears a dress with red sleeves, and this is true regardless of whether the sentence you are currently reading was randomly generated. So, in this case, the reviewer is saying that Smith is introduced as one of Analysts' lackeys (the bots designed to annoy Tom), and that Smith then proceeds to not really do anything except deliver vague exposition. This is true. The style of the cinematography is, I'll agree, not very Bourne - to its detriment. It's much more Bourne-like than in previous films, using more 'naturalistic' handheld camerawork, more close-up framing, and more frequent cutting; but I believe the actual issue is something else. The rhythm and pacing of a given scene is all weird, and the cinematography curiously de-emphasizes impacts. Slow-mo kicks in at odd times, not really highlighting anything. So, the action is technically visible onscreen, but 'hard to follow' as narrative. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 07:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If Zizek wrote that Neo dies at the end of the film by being hit by a truck, it would be trivially easy to prove otherwise. Nobody gives a gently caress about someone's opinion about the philosophical meaning of a movie they didn't watch. It's not a big ask to watch a movie before writing thousands of words about it. I would even accept Zizek watching the movie while phone-posting about all the details he's missing from half-watching. Maybe that makes it clear enough, but given that you are a nothing if not a tedious, transphobic, pseudo-intellectual dipshit, maybe not. Regretful Humming posted:I've enjoyed reading people's perspectives on the movie, but I just wish there was a way to not have SMG get around my ignore list by people quoting his posts while engaging with him. https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/25604-something-awful-true-ignore/code (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 23, 2022 07:11
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Nobody gives a gently caress about someone's opinion about the philosophical meaning of a movie they didn't watch. It's not a big ask to watch a movie before writing thousands of words about it. I would even accept Zizek watching the movie while phone-posting about all the details he's missing from half-watching. I have watched the movie, and I do not consider myself an intellectual. I also remain unclear as to what I’ve written that could be labelled transphobic.
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Jan 23, 2022 07:29
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Thank you!
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Jan 23, 2022 08:05
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I definitely disagree there. The exile fight especially kept cutting away from the action to close-ups of the Merovingian and angles that made it hard to see what was going on, and blows often didn't even seem like they were connecting. It was pretty terrible compared to the clearly choreographed fights in the original. I've talked to a few people who feel the same way, so I know its not just us who noticed it. The exile fight is the main culprit yes. But beginning battles with bugs and the smith vs neo were much clearer. Yea they were not at the levels of old films but they were not shaky cam either.
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Jan 23, 2022 08:23
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Nobody gives a gently caress about someone's opinion about the philosophical meaning of a movie they didn't watch. It's not a big ask to watch a movie before writing thousands of words about it. I would even accept Zizek watching the movie while phone-posting about all the details he's missing from half-watching. it is perfectly fine to not watch a movie. it is also perfectly fine to write words about a movie after not watching that movie. it's also fine (perfectly, of course) to write words about the words of people who have seen the movie, whilst you remain not having seen it. like wtf duh
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Jan 23, 2022 08:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:.. The rhythm and pacing of a given scene is all weird, and the cinematography curiously de-emphasizes impacts. Slow-mo kicks in at odd times, not really highlighting anything. So, the action is technically visible onscreen, but 'hard to follow' as narrative. The action is focused and matter of fact on the characters themselves, not so much the grand set piece, where as reloaded and revolutions, 2 especially felt studio mandated at points,was grand set piece after grand elaborate set piece. Matrix 4 knows you've seen all that poo poo, Nolan has even more or less become the bullet time guy. I kind of mentioned it earlier, but this movie is really great on its action shots we take for granted. The punished merv fight has at least 4 main characters in it so I forgive it's frenetic pace, and it seems Merv is only there because WB forced it(he said it himself as he leaves), which makes it feel even more right. If possible find a non stream copy, I did feel a difference on second watch. Thinking a bit more on it, the fact they have so many principles in frame doing fight choreography that's not cgi based is a wonder in itself. Serious question, what other recent ensemble movies do this? bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 08:47
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Agreed. The smith vs neo fight is clear. Same either the new Morpheus fight. And both show you through the action how tired neo is of fighting. His goal is not one of a grand messiah/freedom fighter. He’s already done that. Contrast this smith battle with the matrix subway one. Neo there was eager to show he was ready to be the one and fought with that vigor. In this one he is sluggish until trinity is mentioned, and as mentioned , he simply pushes his smiths away to end the debate. It fits the plot very well.
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Jan 23, 2022 08:58
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bushisms.txt posted:Disagree completely. After watching all 4 in a row, it's apparent they also watched all the others before deciding on a visual language. I think the only time it was "hard" to watch was during the reverse bullet time scene where they stand still while the analyst runs around with that weird speed filter they were using. Well, let's go to a concrete example.  Here's Neo getting kicked in the stomach, while simultaneously kicking Smith in the stomach. Theoretically, the point is that they mirror eachother in a mystical sort of way, and perhaps that their powers cancel eachother out. (This is the best explanation for why, after the impact, the characters just kinda step back and look mildly annoyed.) Anyways, look at the composition. Neo is pushed to the right side of the screen, and his kick is obscured behind Smith. The shot is 'saying' that Smith has gained the upper hand and backed Neo into a corner, even though that's not what's going on in the choreography. The framing is also imprecise; the camera is pointed just a little too far to the left and little too low to actually catch the impact, which isn't helped by all the dust and shadow. The shot is seemingly designed more to capture the subsequent awkward stumble.
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Jan 23, 2022 16:27
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It's a good thing movies consist of moving pictures. I've never seen you be this pedestrian, SMG, it's not a good look.
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Jan 23, 2022 16:29
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bushisms.txt posted:It's a good thing movies consist of moving pictures. There's no significant camera motion in that shot. Just a slight leftwards pan.
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Jan 23, 2022 16:35
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Alright, fess up, who switched out SMG's logic core with cinema sins videos? This is what you're talking about, a prolonged fight scene where two men fight in a small space??  Every other movie is pulled back and slower, even the final Smith fight in matrix 1. Really loved how intimate and desperate the camera makes everything. Some other good moments    bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jan 23, 2022 |
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Jan 23, 2022 17:37
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bushisms.txt posted:This is what you're talking about, a prolonged fight scene where two men fight in a small space?? No, I am talking about the composition of a particular shot. You've posted a gif of a half-dozen shots, and aren't talking about the composition.
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Jan 23, 2022 17:48
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I think those shots also really draw out how the 'return to the Matrix' action sequences are a tier below the earlier sequences. Everything visually interesting is happening in the first half. e: the smith flight can hardly be called 'prolonged'. It's over pretty quickly.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, I am talking about the composition of a particular shot.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:14
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bushisms.txt posted:Alright, fess up, who switched out SMG's logic core with cinema sins videos? All of that bugs intro stuff looks great, cool editing and camera movements, really feels like hacking the world. Interesting point about the intimacy of the shots. Matrix 1 fights were pre-destined, a trial to get through on his path to becoming the messiah. They are events for everyone to witness. In Resurrections, they have already done this battle 3 times and had their battles on the future of all. Now, both of their stakes are personal ones. Smith's freedom vs Neo's love. The location in an isolated basement far from the rest of the action highlights this. There's the obvious callbacks (pillar smashing, fast punching, leg catching) to the original subway fight to push this contrast.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:17
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bushisms.txt posted:You're wrong, because I'm specifically talking about camera composition in regards to how subjects are shot, so let's just move on. All you've written is that the camera makes everything 'intimate and desperate', by making the movie 'pushed in and faster'. It's a weird thing especially because Smith isn't desperate in the scene, at all. Like, the point of the scene is that he views Neo as a minor annoyance, and the actor's performance matches. He doesn't seem particularly interested in killing Neo, and even appears to be goading him into fighting better. It's a repetition of the earlier training sequence.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:27
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Alchenar posted:I think those shots also really draw out how the 'return to the Matrix' action sequences are a tier below the earlier sequences. Everything visually interesting is happening in the first half. I've already forgotten where that scene took place except 'probably not a subway'.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:30
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I guess it’s not streaming anymore, so I cannot see how long the battle is. The album song, factory fight is 3:40. The new smith vs neo fight happens in a basement/factory that is made to very much resemble the subway. The lighting is similar, there’s the stone pillars, and some of the fight moves are also callbacks. Even the score has similarity with both tracks having a repeating, few note motif. Like the dojo fight, the subway battle in the first was a stepping stone to neos ascension to his messiah role. But in this one, while the fights try to repeat, he keeps ending them differently. He does not want to be the messiah again at this point, and he likely cannot without trinity.
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Jan 23, 2022 18:52
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