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Shaman Tank Spec posted:lol apparently Behaviour removed the Twitch streamer cosmetics from Dowsey's account for mysterious reasons after he criticized Patrick's answers and dumb poo poo on the latest community stream. This after a senior BHVR rep posted a "FYI guys if you're doing posting Patrick's quotes out of context, please consider your actions" message on the Discord, referring to Dowsey's tweet. Loool
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Jan 24, 2022 20:04
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Sometimes I'm confused by how quickly streamers like Otz and Tofu go into THE DEVS DID NOTHING WRONG mode, then they'll do something like that to make me go "Oh right"
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Jan 24, 2022 20:07
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Varinn posted:good excuse to play a bunch of hag and get ruin Yeah, sadly you're likely gonna want to play a few killers to get some extra perks into pools. Of the free killers, Hillbilly has Tinkerer which is arguably the best killer info perk after Lethal Persuer, and Trapper has Brutal Strength and Agitation to at least help speed up common actions for most killers (tho less so for Pyramid Head, you're still breaking some pallets and carrying to some hooks.). Depending on what other killers you have, you can get multiple useful perks out of Leatherface, Hag, Nemesis, Plague, Trickster, and Artist. E: and Clown, but playing Clown sucks so I forgot about Clown. Mr. Locke fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jan 24, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 20:18
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So I am thinking nurse heal and hex ruin makes the most sense to work towards for pyramid head. Luckily you don't have to play the killer you are trying to get traits for to actually level them up since you can spend bloodpoints however you want. If anyone else has any awesome suggestions for perks for pyramid head let me know. Hag is at least decently fun to play (unlike trapper)
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Jan 24, 2022 21:14
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 Tactics talk with Otzdarva.
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Jan 24, 2022 21:15
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I'm All Ears off Ghostface is probably Pyramid Head's best perk. "Oh you vaulted and went behind a wall, just lining up and hitting your aura now through that wall"
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Jan 24, 2022 21:15
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DeathChicken posted:I'm All Ears off Ghostface is probably Pyramid Head's best perk. "Oh you vaulted and went behind a wall, just lining up and hitting your aura now through that wall" Ah that makes sense. Problem is I really really suck with the whole "when you are in aim mode/leaving your trail your aim becomes all fucky". I get some hits but man it fucks my muscle memory.
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Jan 24, 2022 21:20
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Mr. Locke posted:
I disagree
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Jan 24, 2022 22:05
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:lol apparently Behaviour removed the Twitch streamer cosmetics from Dowsey's account for mysterious reasons after he criticized Patrick's answers and dumb poo poo on the latest community stream. This after a senior BHVR rep posted a "FYI guys if you're doing posting Patrick's quotes out of context, please consider your actions" message on the Discord, referring to Dowsey's tweet. temple fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 24, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 22:19
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DeathChicken posted:I'm All Ears off Ghostface is probably Pyramid Head's best perk. "Oh you vaulted and went behind a wall, just lining up and hitting your aura now through that wall" I love Tinkerer, Discordance and Nurse's with Pyramid Head, though Nurse's is increasingly less useful. It's nice when I get a Discordance notification and then Tinkerer on the same gen, I'm often able to get both of them with a blast through a wall if I'm sneaky enough.
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Jan 24, 2022 22:42
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temple posted:I don't know he expects. He trashes DBD, the devs, and promotes VHS. I used to be a fan but he streams 6 hours a week and its mostly negative. I think supporters/subs like myself feel cheated because he's barely on and flipped between different platforms. So glad I didn't sub to his youtube. He hosed around. God you suck.
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Jan 24, 2022 23:59
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Yardbomb posted:God you suck. -1 tee shirt
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Jan 25, 2022 00:25
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temple posted:I don't know he expects. He trashes DBD, the devs, and promotes VHS. I used to be a fan but he streams 6 hours a week and its mostly negative. I think supporters/subs like myself feel cheated because he's barely on and flipped between different platforms. So glad I didn't sub to his youtube. He hosed around. Being a sponsored or privileged streamer for a game/company basically means you’re not allowed to criticize that company openly if you want to maintain that relationship but that’s definitely not how it should work. I think personally that I can’t stand Dowsey and he clearly chose the wrong job for his personality but this is only capitalist bullshit petty revenge and he didn’t do poo poo to ‘earn it.’
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Jan 25, 2022 00:47
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Patrick you loving idiot. The lead game designer is right that MMR shouldn't take anything except winning and losing into account, which in DBD's case is decided by how many survivors died in the match. Other game devs have tried using other metrics, like damage dealt in Dota 2, and that always leads to people abusing the system in some way. In Dota 2's case, Russian account sellers would blaze through placements as Zeus and place way higher in MMR because the hero just inherently deals a fuckton of damage (at the cost of being poo poo otherwise) Shaman Tank Spec posted:Equally baffling, from BHVR's point of view eight hooks and zero kills is equal to getting a 0 hook 5 gen stomp. A Bubba tunneling and basement camping one person out of the game (and then losing 5 gens and the game) is a better performance and more of a win. I mean, in chess, MMR is decided by whether you take out the enemy king or not. Doesn't matter if you do it in 3 moves or 50. And if you kill all the pieces EXCEPT the king even though you knew the goal was to take out the king, then you played the game wrong. A lot of the MMR discussion gets muddled up because the game itself is so wonky. The fact that you can consistently get a better performance by camping one person to death than playing the game "legit" is not the MMR system's fault, it's the developers'. Edit: I guess you could argue that the goal of the game is to get 4 iri medals and a lot of BP. though I always assumed the point of the game was for survivors to stay alive and killers to make survivors dead (by daylight) Minorkos fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 01:11
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i didn't know that dota or chess were asymmetrical games, but I guess I'm not up to speed on how they've developed
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Jan 25, 2022 01:20
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Minorkos posted:The lead game designer is right that MMR shouldn't take anything except winning and losing into account, which in DBD's case is decided by how many survivors died in the match. Other game devs have tried using other metrics, like damage dealt in Dota 2, and that always leads to people abusing the system in some way. In Dota 2's case, Russian account sellers would blaze through placements as Zeus and place way higher in MMR because the hero just inherently deals a fuckton of damage (at the cost of being poo poo otherwise) This is ignoring that their MMR system has a far too small range (1100-1900, while most modern MMR systems organically top out around 2300 for the absolute best players) while also having also having hard bounds at the ends of the range which is specifically not how these systems are supposed to work. Yes win/loss is basically the only way to track video game mechanics without getting into hilariously complex math that no studio is going to do but their implementation is absolutely the problem, even before you get into balancing the values of their system which is what they would need to do to fix the current problem of hard swings. Orv fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 01:22
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Yes, the problem is that as survivor whether you live or die is incredibly dependent on how dumb your teammates are. Or to a lesser degree whether the killer just decides he wants you dead at the expense of throwing the game
DeathChicken fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 01:23
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UnderFreddy posted:i didn't know that dota or chess were asymmetrical games, but I guess I'm not up to speed on how they've developed Yeah and since the game is asymmetrical, it should makes sense to base the MMR system on something that can be evaluated symmetrically. Such as, how many people escape in a match, because for every 3 escapes there's going to be a 1 kill, and for every 3 kills there's going to be 1 escape Orv posted:This is ignoring that their MMR system has a far too small range (1600-1900, while most modern MMR systems organically top out around 2300 for the absolute best players) while also having also having hard bounds at the ends of the range which is specifically not how these systems are supposed to work. Yes win/loss is basically the only way to track video game mechanics without getting into hilariously complex math that no studio is going to do but their implementation is absolutely the problem, even before you get into balancing the values of their system which is what they would need to do to fix the current problem of hard swings. The MMR range being poo poo and the hilariously skewed matches caused by their matchmaking going out of its way to IGNORE its own matchmaking ratings are their own issues and not really relevant to how MMR is derived. To clarify, I think the MMR formula is also flawed, but not in the way that people seem to think it is. As far as I know, the way BHVR implemented it is so hosed that bad killers will get pushed to top MMR because they're gaining MMR even for 1-2 kill matches and stuff. But using kills/escapes is fine (in theory) DeathChicken posted:Yes, the problem is that as survivor whether you live or die is incredibly dependent on how dumb your teammates are I did say (though not very clearly) that I think your MMR gain/loss as a survivor should be the amount of escapes on your team total. So if you escape alone, you would actually lose MMR (because you were bad and couldn't save your friends) Minorkos fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 01:23
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Minorkos posted:The lead game designer is right that MMR shouldn't take anything except winning and losing into account, which in DBD's case is decided by how many survivors died in the match. Except a survivor's MMR isn't effected by how many survivors died, it's effected by whether they personally died. If I run the killer for five loving gens, then finally get hit once the doors are open and the entire team abandons me on first hook, it's horse poo poo that their MMR goes up and mine goes down. They aren't more skilled than me because they held M1 for five minutes. Edit: shouldn't have paused to eat a taco before hitting post.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:28
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I agree its very cool that they have developed an MMR system that rewards tunnelling one survivor as opposed to hooking 4 others 2 times each. A clearly superior way to enjoy video game Dead by Daylight
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Jan 25, 2022 01:30
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rydiafan posted:Except a survivor's MMR isn't effected by how many survivors died, it's effected by whether they personally died. important question for this debate: was it a good taco, op?
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Jan 25, 2022 01:32
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Also very cool that I can be a hidey scared selfish teammate and escape with 5k points and be equally as skilled as everyone else who made it out and even did better than the guy who risked it all for his team but died.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:33
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Kwolok posted:I agree its very cool that they have developed an MMR system that rewards tunnelling one survivor as opposed to hooking 4 others 2 times each. A clearly superior way to enjoy video game Dead by Daylight I think it's their game designers that made tunneling too rewarding, not the MMR system. To go back to my elegant chess analogy, if you were legally allowed to win a match by flipping the table and landing at least 3 pieces on your opponent's face, and people were doing that to gain MMR, then would you really blame the MMR system there
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Jan 25, 2022 01:33
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Minorkos posted:The MMR range being poo poo and the hilariously skewed matches caused by their matchmaking going out of its way to IGNORE its own matchmaking ratings are their own issues and not really relevant to how MMR is derived. To clarify, I think the MMR formula is also flawed, but not in the way that people seem to think it is. As far as I know, the way BHVR implemented it is so hosed that bad killers will get pushed to top MMR because they're gaining MMR even for 1-2 kill matches and stuff. But using kills/escapes is fine (in theory) I mean, part of why their implementation of the range is bad is because a killer can go from the bottom of the range to the top in a literal handful of games, so basically every number invoked in the system is whack. It kind of doesn’t matter where the fault lies if every single part is infeasible.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:34
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The problem is that camping is too effective. BHVR ignored it, denied it, but now their own system proves it.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:36
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DbD by design and theme encourages survivors to act altruistically and I defy you to conclude, whether in a purely logical sense or a horror movie sense, that there isn't an element of satisfaction and good play to one survivor making a sacrifice that gets 1 or more survivors out that gate. We can agree that 3 escapes is better than 2 escapes, surely. Of course to design for that or to have it be entirely emergent and not get the message as the actual developers of the game years later is another story. To implement a system that seems to ignore that is baffling. To do all that while altruism is accounted for quite neatly in the medals system that already existed is insanity.  Also to butcher your chess analogy, imagine that you always perform the perfect, most precise moves to engage and check and try to mate the enemy King. That's all that matters, right, but you can do things that make your victory more likely such as claiming more enemy pieces than he claims of yours, giving you better options turn to turn. All that matters is if the King dies, right, but that's really hard to do to the other guy with 3 pawns and a King vs his full board. So you're Peter Perfect the win/lose survivor and you loop the dude until he's dizzy, unhook your teammates, heal the gently caress out of them and coordinate split gen pushes and pick the middle gen to prevent the 3 gen yourself. Then you get bonked with NOED and your MMR goes down because only the escape mattered. Only the King mattered. Maybe DbD isn't chess and maybe SBMM isn't doing well.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:38
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Orv posted:I mean, part of why their implementation of the range is bad is because a killer can go from the bottom of the range to the top in a literal handful of games, so basically every number invoked in the system is whack. It kind of doesn’t matter where the fault lies if every single part is infeasible. Yeah I realize this is kind of a dumb hill to die on on my part since the whole system is hosed in so many ways, I just feel like I had to point out the formula wasn't inherently a bad call (aside from the survivor MMR gains being individual instead of shared) temple posted:The problem is that camping is too effective. BHVR ignored it, denied it, but now their own system proves it. Exactly this, and on a similar note, I feel like the players are hoping the MMR system can "fix" it, when it's really BHVR's job to do that.
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Jan 25, 2022 01:40
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Doomykins posted:So you're Peter Perfect the win/lose survivor and you loop the dude until he's dizzy, unhook your teammates, heal the gently caress out of them and coordinate split gen pushes and pick the middle gen to prevent the 3 gen yourself. Then you get bonked with NOED and your MMR goes down because only the escape mattered. Only the King mattered. Maybe DbD isn't chess and maybe SBMM isn't doing well. I think it's more difficult with killers, since I'm not sure amount of kills correspond to level of play as naturally over time. Especially with how different the killers are
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Jan 25, 2022 01:45
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Speaking of, had a game as Billy where they switched to three flashlights in the lobby. I put on Lightborn, which eventually led to all four of them DCing (the last one when I caught her at the gates). I legit wonder what that sort of nonsense does to MMR
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Jan 25, 2022 01:57
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Doomykins posted:Also to butcher your chess analogy, imagine that you always perform the perfect, most precise moves to engage and check and try to mate the enemy King. That's all that matters, right, but you can do things that make your victory more likely such as claiming more enemy pieces than he claims of yours, giving you better options turn to turn. All that matters is if the King dies, right, but that's really hard to do to the other guy with 3 pawns and a King vs his full board. This is possibly the worst chess analogy I may have ever seen. The most perfect, most precise moves to engage and check and try to mate the enemy king are to remove his supporting pieces until you can do so. Claiming his pieces isn't an incidental thing done on the way to a checkmate, it's literally the entire game. They aren't separate things. I don't think I can properly articulate how bad this is as an analogy. I'm impressed!
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Jan 25, 2022 02:16
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Orv posted:Being a sponsored or privileged streamer for a game/company basically means you’re not allowed to criticize that company openly if you want to maintain that relationship but that’s definitely not how it should work. I think personally that I can’t stand Dowsey and he clearly chose the wrong job for his personality but this is only capitalist bullshit petty revenge and he didn’t do poo poo to ‘earn it.’ Yeah exactly this, I've rarely ever watched him, but even for constant criticism it feels like such pissy baby activity on BHVR's part. Being a 'face' of a game should never ever mean you have to just gobble up the company line or else they're gonna start needling you.
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Jan 25, 2022 02:23
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:lol apparently Behaviour removed the Twitch streamer cosmetics from Dowsey's account for mysterious reasons after he criticized Patrick's answers and dumb poo poo on the latest community stream. This after a senior BHVR rep posted a "FYI guys if you're doing posting Patrick's quotes out of context, please consider your actions" message on the Discord, referring to Dowsey's tweet. 
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Jan 25, 2022 02:32
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Maybe comparing chess to something like dead by daylight is inherently a really incredibly stupid thing to do in the first place. It's also insane to say "well it's hard to measure other metrics in this game other than wins" while the game currently has those metrics as a core part of the game.
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Jan 25, 2022 02:39
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There's a lot of miserable poo poo. Flashlight addons are bs. I dodged the initial flashlight beam but the addon was so strong they stunned me on the second blind. Why? Those petrified oak offerings that spread hooks across the map are horrendous. I tried it once but now I camp. I guess I'm a high MMR killer.
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Jan 25, 2022 02:41
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temple posted:Flashlight addons are bs. I dodged the initial flashlight beam but the addon was so strong they stunned me on the second blind. Why? I really don't know how they fix flashlights without hammering them, they used to be even more insane (The old 'instablinds' of course) and it's taken a bunch of spread out tweaks to get them where they are now, where they're still ridiculously easy to abuse.
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Jan 25, 2022 03:05
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We talk a lot about killer builds but what are some fun but not sweaty survivor builds. Not interested in BT/DS/DH/CoH
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Jan 25, 2022 03:14
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Kwolok posted:We talk a lot about killer builds but what are some fun but not sweaty survivor builds. Not interested in BT/DS/DH/CoH You could stack healing speed perks and become unkillable in the circle of healing
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Jan 25, 2022 03:45
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Minorkos posted:You could stack healing speed perks and become unkillable in the circle of healing I have self respect
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Jan 25, 2022 04:01
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I like running Red Herring/Repressed Alliance/Spine Chill. Spine Chill goes off, you set off Repressed, go away to a locker and set off Red Herring. Killer walks up to a blocked gen he can't kick Or you could replace Repressed with Blast Mine if you wanted to be an rear end in a top hat
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Jan 25, 2022 04:23
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Kwolok posted:We talk a lot about killer builds but what are some fun but not sweaty survivor builds. Not interested in BT/DS/DH/CoH Head on/Quick and Quiet Lithe/Dance with Me or Quick and Quiet Sprint Burst/Self-Aware Spine Chill/Resilience aka the vault build Lucky Break/Iron Will Kindred/BT. Iron Will and maybe We're Going to Live Forever Autodidact /Empathy Any item + Built to Last Diversion/Stake-out. Or Urban Evasion Hope/Adrenaline Open Handed/Aura perks (like Windows of Opportunity) Alert/Dark Sense Plunderer's Instinct or Up the Ante/Appraisal We'll Make It/Renewal Flip-Flop/Power Struggle temple fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 04:27
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