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Nucleic Acids posted:It’s not, because that’s not what whataboutism is, it’s just recognizing that this situation is our fault and we are hell bent on making it worse while doing nothing at home. Making it worse by doing what exactly? And conversely, what better path are we not taking?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Russia literally invaded and annexed 15% of Ukraine a few years ago. The U.S. has 1,600 troops within 150 miles of a Russian border, NATO has 4,000 troops total in all of Eastern Europe, and Russia has moved 115,000 troops to the Ukrainian border in the past month and is openly saying that they need to annex the rest of it. Why should we trust the state department and the cia when they say how likely a war is?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:09
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morothar posted:Making it worse by doing what exactly? And conversely, what better path are we not taking? Shipping lethal aid to Ukraine and training Gladio style “stay-behind” units while withdrawing as the global police force and focusing on rebuilding at home.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:10
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CommieGIR posted:Have I probed or threaten to probe you a single point in this discussion? gently caress off with this poo poo. Nope. but I know better than to push an issue when you specifically are arguing from moderation - you've told me I need to respond to an argument you've made up in your head and I am declining to do so, because that way leads frustration, lashing out, and probations. I'm good - I've gotten all I think I'm reasonably going to out of this discussion and am happy to drop it.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:10
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Nucleic Acids posted:Shipping lethal aid to Ukraine and training “stay-behind” units while withdrawing as a be global police force and focusing on rebuilding at home. Notably missing from your answer: the better loving path with respect to Ukraine. What alternative path should we take with respect to Ukraine, rather than “make it worse”?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:13
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, that was literally the point. No; my point was that bc AHIP is secure in its funding mechanisms from the federal government, and that out of self-interest it will continue to lobby for that funding, its purchase of the federal government & contributions toward regulatory capture have been extremely successful. Do you think that Physicians for a National Health Plan might have a different view of where federal spending is allocated? Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:13
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Lib and let die posted:Nope. but I know better than to push an issue when you specifically are arguing from moderation - you've told me I need to respond to an argument you've made up in your head and I am declining to do so, because that way leads frustration, lashing out, and probations. I'm good - I've gotten all I think I'm reasonably going to out of this discussion and am happy to drop it. Highlight where I am arguing from moderation. Otherwise I assume you brought it up as a cop out.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:13
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CommieGIR posted:Have I probed or threaten to probe you a single point in this discussion? gently caress off with this poo poo. You've demanded proof of someone's argument, which is where your tone gets kind of tricky sometimes.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:14
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morothar posted:Notably missing from your answer: the better loving path with respect to Ukraine. Not repeating Cold War tactics and strategy to shore up our collapsing empire.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:14
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Nucleic Acids posted:Shipping lethal aid to Ukraine and training “stay-behind” units while withdrawing as a be global police force and focusing on rebuilding at home. “Stay behind” units have a long history, recommend reading up on Operation Gladio. In short, very seldom do they end up having a fate other than 1. Designated victims for a competent intelligence service to roll up, torture and execute or 2. Insane right wing death squads. This generation’s Frank Wisner is going to be a barred out Wellesley grad reading casualty reports at their desk in The Wing
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Jan 26, 2022 17:14
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Willa Rogers posted:You've demanded proof of someone's argument, which is where your tone gets kind of tricky sometimes. And nowhere did I threaten any sort of consequences. There was no 'tone' Nucleic Acids posted:Not repeating Cold War tactics and strategy to shore up our collapsing empire. Uh....what exactly do you think Putin is doing? Lib and let die posted:Whether you mean for the implication to be there, telling posters what they "need" to argue, as a moderator, carries an implicit connotation of "or else" with it. You invented the 'or else'. Asking for proof is pretty normal in D&D. Done discussing this with you.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:15
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CommieGIR posted:Highlight where I am arguing from moderation. Otherwise I assume you brought it up as a cop out. CommieGIR posted:No, you need to demonstrate that $500 million not being used on these programs, which could easily be funded, somehow prevented these programs for being enacted. Whether you mean for the implication to be there, telling posters what they "need" to argue, as a moderator, carries an implicit connotation of "or else" with it. I decline to meet the "need" to argue a point you've made up in your own head, because I don't want to suffer the "or else."
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Jan 26, 2022 17:15
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Nucleic Acids posted:Not repeating Cold War tactics and strategy to shore up our collapsing empire. That isn't an answer to the question.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:15
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So if someone needs to do something and then doesn't do it what happens? Did they need to do it or did you mean to say "I would like it if you"? Normal polite discussions make requests. Demands come off as an angry tone.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:16
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Willa Rogers posted:No; my point was that bc AHIP is secure in its funding mechanisms from the federal government, and that out of self-interest it will continue to lobby for that funding, because its purchase of the federal government & contributions toward regulatory capture has been extremely successful. That was exactly the point. You keep restating it. They are completely fine with "social spending" if it goes to them. AHIP isn't lobbying for more missiles and Lockheed Martin isn't lobbying for austerity. They both very much prefer to be receiving money from the federal government, regardless of reasoning, so the idea that Lockheed Martin would be opposed to wage subsidies or the government paying for its healthcare and AHIP wants the government to spend less on healthcare subsidies in order to build more missiles is absurd. They aren't opposed to it ideologically like Americans for Tax Reform, they are opposed to it when it doesn't profit them. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:17
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Jarmak posted:That isn't an answer to the question. I mean it is, we’re just replicating everything we did in the Cold War right down to training future “freedom fighters” who will fight on behind enemy lines. Or, in other words, just stay out of this.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:18
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Gumball Gumption posted:So if someone needs to do something and then doesn't do it what happens? Did they need to do it or did you mean to say "I would like it if you"? If I was going to probe anybody for debating and discussing with me, I would've already done it. Here, I'll help you: If you believe I am threatening to use my buttons or my position as a mod to force you to do something when debating and discussing the topic at hand, contact Koos Group and provide evidence. Now shut the gently caress up about it
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Jan 26, 2022 17:18
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CommieGIR posted:If I was going to probe anybody for debating and discussing with me, I would've already done it. You could also just try being friendlier to people.  ask, don't demand
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Jan 26, 2022 17:20
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I love that the argument for war is "those funds would NEVER be used to help struggling people", and this is just stated matter-of-fact as if it doesn't prove how monstrous this country and the people in charge of it are. Leftists have been over here arguing "Hey maybe Democrats are evil too" then you guys just run off and admit it.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:21
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CommieGIR posted:And nowhere did I threaten any sort of consequences. There was no 'tone' And that's your prerogative, though I'd strongly encourage you to reconsider the meaning of the term "implicit" (and the various words derived from it, such as 'implication') https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/implicit If a person in a position of authority makes a demand of you, there is an implicit imperative baked into the power structure. A cop doesn't need to have his gun drawn to pose an implicit threat to someone they're telling to get on the ground - that they have the gun is plenty reason enough to draw reasonable conclusions about what happens if you decline to engage on their terms.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:21
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Gumball Gumption posted:You could also just try being friendlier to people. True, I will keep that in mind and maybe that does align with Willa's feeling about tone. My bad. But no, if I felt there was need for button pushing in a thread I am actively debating in, I'll call over Koos, EHF, Gout, Fritz or anyone else. I won't be pushing buttons as that's an obvious and blatant abuse of power. Lib and let die posted:And that's your prerogative, though I'd strongly encourage you to reconsider the meaning of the term "implicit" (and the various words derived from it, such as 'implication') Lib: If I felt something was probe worth in a discussion I am actively engaged in, I have many mods I can ask to review and do it for me. Or not, if their peer review feels that its not probe worthy. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:22
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I don't even get the case for intervention. Two oligarchs want to have a war so their workers can kill each other for imaginary stuff like flags and invisible lines, why is that our business. Europeans have been murdering each other for thousands of years, sending them some more cluster bombs to do it with isn't going to solve that, Europeans aren't murdering each other because of a deficit of cluster bombs so I don't even see the benefit. They'll probably just kill each other more. I guess there's a nice tidy profit to be made for Raytheon here but I don't care about their profits so eh.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:22
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Bishyaler posted:I love that the argument for war is "those funds would NEVER be used to help struggling people", and this is just stated matter-of-fact as if it doesn't prove how monstrous this country and the people in charge of it are. Leftists have been over here arguing "Hey maybe Democrats are evil too" then you guys just run off and admit it. This is still buck wild to me. I want to spend all my money getting drunk at the bar every night and fistfighting the neighbors while my wife can't afford her insulin. This is apparently not a waste of money because I don't care if my wife lives or dies and wouldn't spend a dime on her anyway, so booze and a hilarious arsenal are sound and sensible expenditures now
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Jan 26, 2022 17:27
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VitalSigns posted:I don't even get the case for intervention. Two oligarchs want to have a war so their workers can kill each other for imaginary stuff like flags and invisible lines, why is that our business. Literally could be applied to any of the Isolationist arguments of any of the previous world wars. VitalSigns posted:This is still buck wild to me. I want to spend all my money getting drunk at the bar every night and fistfighting the neighbors while my wife can't afford her insulin. Always love this stuff: Comparing the US budget to a household one is always a bad comparison. We can largely appropriate funds out of thin air without issue. But again the major problem isn't you wasting your money at the bar and fistfighting, but that you are doing nothing when you are at home either, so staying home would've likely not changed the scenario. Because if you are already the sort of guy who is ignoring your homelife to that degree (cough cough Dems and Republicans) you already view your family and home situation with disdain and are unlikely to enact any meaningful change or you are so completely isolated from the realities of your homelife that none of it matters. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:27
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VitalSigns posted:I don't even get the case for intervention. Two oligarchs want to have a war so their workers can kill each other for imaginary stuff like flags and invisible lines, why is that our business. There's not really any money in it for Raytheon (unless your argument is that a full scale shooting war between Europe, the U.S., and Russia is imminent and this is all a plot to start it by 30 different countries tricking Russia into invading). The case for it (whether you agree with the case or not) was posted earlier: quote:Whether you agree with it or not, the calculus is: One of the reasons Russia specifically picked now to do it is because there is a supply chain shortage and inflation caused partially by an energy shortage, so Russia has maximum economic leverage to do it right now and that leverage will slowly fade over time. The argument is that if they don't do it now, then they will be far less likely to do it in the future when they don't have as much economic leverage over most of the NATO countries and Ukraine. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:27
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CommieGIR posted:Literally could be applied to any of the Isolationist arguments of any of the previous world wars. Probably would have been a good thing if someone had done that in World War 1 honestly Without the original might not even have had to have made the sequel.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:30
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VitalSigns posted:Probably would have been a good thing if someone had done that in World War 1 honestly Nah. The sequel would've happened because the Versailles treaty would've still likely imposed strict reparations on Germany. That was largely driven by the European nations and would be one of the major pain points leading to World War 2. quote:he Treaty of Versailles, this statement was Article 231. This article became known as the War Guilt clause as the majority of Germans felt humiliated and resentful.[252] Overall the Germans felt they had been unjustly dealt with by what they called the "diktat of Versailles". German historian Hagen Schulze said the Treaty placed Germany "under legal sanctions, deprived of military power, economically ruined, and politically humiliated."[253] Belgian historian Laurence Van Ypersele emphasises the central role played by memory of the war and the Versailles Treaty in German politics in the 1920s and 1930s: The only real way we could've avoided World War 2 was by instead funding a rebuild of Germany like we did with Japan after World War 2 (hopefully without the conservative anti-worker elements) and a forgiveness of war debts. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:32
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CommieGIR posted:Literally could be applied to any of the Isolationist arguments of any of the previous world wars. drat, we don’t care though: the US military is constantly accused of preparing to fight the previous war and its defenders are here doing the same. WE DON’T CARE if you think we’re bad Americans. loving Joe Biden thinks we’re bad Americans, Trump would say we’re bad Americans, and for many of the same reasons. Eugene Debs was a good American and look where that got him. American prestige is fake. Nobody’s gonna support any more loving wars based on this poo poo anymore. You lost too many, everybody knows we’re losers who can’t even take care of ourselves. We’d be better off if you could admit this AND decide that one of the few things we’re good at (selling arms and making war) we should refrain from doing because we almost never make the world better by doing so. Stop doing the things you’re bad at, and try doing the things you don’t even bother trying, is what I’m saying—that’s my practical argument. My moral argument is no war but class war.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:35
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some plague rats posted:She's going to have to fend off a primary challenge from Jerry Rubin THE Jerry Rubin? I think he's dead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Rubin
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Jan 26, 2022 17:36
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selec posted:drat, we don’t care though: the US military is constantly accused of preparing to fight the previous war and its defenders are here doing the same. I don't think anyone is arguing this is a prestige issue, or even arguing that we shouldn't significantly diminish our standing Army (or even have one at all) but the reality is that would change nothing about what Putin is doing. Because Putin is a kleptocrat trying to avoid a national collapse by directing his people's attention against supposed enemies and invading/overthrowing/and murdering his opponents, including encouraging the use of Nerve Agents and Chemical Weapons and mercenaries. And yeah as others pointed out: NATO has like 5-10k soldiers anywhere near the Russian border. Russia not only has already annexed one country, but invaded and taken a portion of Ukraine (and has been directly traced to having units involved in that action), and now has nearly 150k soldiers at Ukraine's border. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 17:38
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Nucleic Acids posted:No, this is our chickens coming home to roost considering how we kept pushing NATO eastward after the end of the Cold War and basically raped Russia in the 90s. I'm sorry, but what in the gently caress are you even talking about here? Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Russia literally invaded and annexed 15% of Ukraine a few years ago. The U.S. has 1,600 troops within 150 miles of a Russian border, NATO has 4,000 troops total in all of Eastern Europe, and Russia has moved 115,000 troops to the Ukrainian border in the past month and is openly saying that they need to annex the rest of it. Don't forget the civilian 777 that was shot down with a missile by the Russian military and the world lost several leading HIV researchers in the process. But America is bad, so no one is allowed to complain about that.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:39
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Nucleic Acids posted:Not repeating Cold War tactics and strategy to shore up our collapsing empire. You seem pathologically incapable of giving me a straight answer: what positive course of action should we pursue with respect to Ukraine?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:39
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Nucleic Acids posted:We are more responsible for Vladimir Putin being in office right now than any other force on earth when accounting for our actions in and around Russia after the fall of the USSR. Do you care to elaborate on this? I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but Putin is ex-KGB and had solid connections with other rising stars in late/post soviet Russia. He didn't have any public profile in the late-stage USSR, but everything I have read suggests he was well-situated to attain high public office in Russia with or without US involvement. Did we intervene on his behalf in some direct way that I am not aware of?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:40
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Aegis posted:Do you care to elaborate on this? Look up Yeltsin, and how the US openly bragged about rigging the election in his favour. Was said years back that the 2010s is when the entire Western ruling class started sundowning all at the same time, and boy does it show.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:42
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CommieGIR posted:Nah. The sequel would've happened because the Versailles treaty would've still likely imposed strict reparations on Germany. That was largely driven by the European nations and would be one of the major pain points leading to World War 2. Oh well I guess I meant everybody not just us. Like if someone in Germany had been like "wait why do we care about Austria's spat with Serbia", same in Russia "wait why are we deploying against Germany over some border dispute in another country" While it's an interesting historical debate what Versailles might have looked like if it had been a negotiated peace between the exhausted Entente and Central powers instead of a surrender by a Germany facing allied armies reinvigorated by fresh American troops, we'll never really know what might have happened if Wilson hadn't gotten so horny to get a big chair at the table to re carve up the world (and ensure his banker friends' war loans were repaid) that he decided to throw his promises to the American people in the trash.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:43
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VitalSigns posted:Oh well I guess I meant everybody not just us. Like if someone in Germany had been like "wait why do we care about Austria's spat with Serbia", same in Russia "wait why are we deploying against Germany over some border dispute in another country" Oh, yeah if the agreements hadn't be honored, sure, maybe we could've largely avoided it. But we didn't. And it happened. And the ending made it worse.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:44
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CommieGIR posted:Literally could be applied to any of the Isolationist arguments of any of the previous world wars. Speaking as someone with several family members arrested or beaten into being freaking deaf deaf by a US backed 'free world' regime during the 70s, you'll forgive me if I see this whole "let's not be isolationist, guys, it doesn't go well!" as a cheap excuse for the maintance of imperial client states. Maybe the mantle of US 'protection' was light in Europe. Down here, it certainly loving wasn't.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:44
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selec posted:Nobody’s gonna support any more loving wars based on this poo poo anymore Do you really believe this, or are you just psyching yourself up? Because you know there's like a third of this country that will support literally any war, any time, and a bunch of the rest that can be talked into it. And also people are people the world over, and there are still tons of folks that would rather we gently caress with Russians closer to Russia so that Russia doesn't get any more influence than it has. It's....it's kind of the entire reason there is a NATO. You seem to think that America being a dumpster fire means anything. It doesn't. Almost nobody cares. Yeah, it's a nation of blood sucking monsters fueled by incompetence and genocide. And? That's been true longer than you've been alive. Nothings changed.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:45
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Sephyr posted:Speaking as someone with several family members arrested or beaten into being freaking deaf deaf by a US backed 'free world' regime during the 70s, you'll forgive me if I see this whole "let's not be isolationist, guys, it doesn't go well!" as a cheap excuse for the maintance of imperial client states. Nobody here is defending the actions in South America. In fact I think you'll find most of us felt that was straight up evil. But what bearing does that have on Ukraine given that we're: Not sending troops and not trying to overthrow the Ukrainian government but largely honoring an agreement to ensure Ukraine's independence in the face of a ongoing Russian invasion that started in 2014?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:46
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Solkanar512 posted:I'm sorry, but what in the gently caress are you even talking about here? He's probably referring to the fact that, after the Soviet Union collapsed, the U.S., many other countries, and international organizations gave huge amounts of aid and loans to Russia on the condition that most of the state industries be sold off to private Russian citizens to prevent whoever took power next from having complete control over all industry. Boris Yeltsin was backed by the West because he was running against the remnants of the previous CCCP leadership in the election and wanted the aid and loans. The only people who had enough money to buy most of those industries were Russians who were connected or crooked enough to be able to get extremely rich under the Soviet Union. It resulted in about 18 different Russians owning almost every industry in the country, the rise of the Russian oligarchy, and all the associated problems that came with that. The argument is that if that hadn't been a condition for the aid and loans (that Russia basically needed to stabilize and rebuild, so it was hard to say no), that there would have been more widespread prosperity in Russia following the collapse and not the huge rush of money to the top of Russian society.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:48
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