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Cackling intensifies https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1486700677086728204
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Jan 27, 2022 15:22
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OwlFancier posted:Do you really suppose that their families don't already know what they're like? Even if somehow stalking them to find their families and posting them letters or some poo poo like a serial killer were a normal response it is farcical to expect it to do anything. And again, how do you "have a stern word with them round back" if they are a rando on the internet? What makes you think that would achieve anything either? I don't think we should be cheering on employers making anyone destitute, in any case, for any reason. Class solidarity has to trump everything, always. The second you begin to erode that based on moral judgements about individuals, you've already lost. Someone might be a total piece of a poo poo, but they're also a proletarian with the same material interests as any other proletarian, regardless of their own immediate ideological position. Very, very few right-wingers are unsalvageable zealots. Organising, building solidarity, being loving firm with people when they're being asshats while also defending their class interests. That's going to be far better in the long term. Ofc you're going to get a few true believers, but I genuinely do believe they're a tiny minority. e: On your first point I was talking about people doing racist tirades in coffee shops vs staff etc, not some dumbass posting gamer slurs on the internet.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:23
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This guy is eroding class solidarity by literally killing the working class with a lung melting disease.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:30
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Whether someone is a "true believer" is irrelevant, what matters is they exist in an environment where their views are either encouraged or sufficiently lacking in discouragement that they are not changing them, absent some imagined left wing organization that could somehow change their minds (or even that it would be worth doing so rather than finding easier targets) the most available method to improve them is to forcibly change their environment so that holding their views is no longer sustainable. Such as by getting them fired for it. They might change as a result, they might not, they might get hired somewhere else, or they might starve to death. Either way I think the balance of probability is that lovely people being fired is a net benefit to everybody else. Being proletarian does not in any way suggest that someone is on your side, or even that they have a paritcular potential to be on your side. That sort of argument can do nothing but make excuses for lovely people, people's actual, existing outlook on the world is far more important than some imagined outlook you think they should have based on your understanding of class.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:33
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My sister was beaten to a pulp on numerous occasions by a man who everyone who met him thought he was 'charming, a lovely man'. I had no bones whatsoever about phoning his employer where he worked as a sales guy and telling the receptionist that yet again, he had punched my sister in the face and broken her nose for the nth time before kicking her in the belly to try and force a miscarriage. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. (Yeah, he lost his job.)
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Jan 27, 2022 15:39
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:My sister was beaten to a pulp on numerous occasions by a man who everyone who met him thought he was 'charming, a lovely man'. Hope he's homeless and/or dead now. Same goes for the antivaxxer guy
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Jan 27, 2022 15:40
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Call it "pre emptive suppression of the counter-revolution" if that helps.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:43
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We're also talking about an actor whose work is basically all contract stuff, and heavily reliant on personality. Not that actors aren't entitled to rights and dignity, but if the audience thinks you're a complete shithead and are threatening to stop watching then yeah, contracts are probably going to be cancelled and no longer come your way. It's not like regular labour where you can still get the job done even if you're a weird conspiracy nut like my postman, making people not want to change the channel is kind of an important part of being a TV actor.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:44
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OwlFancier posted:Whether someone is a "true believer" is irrelevant, what matters is they exist in an environment where their views are either encouraged or sufficiently lacking in discouragement that they are not changing them, absent some imagined left wing organization that could somehow change their minds (or even that it would be worth doing so rather than finding easier targets) the most available method to improve them is to forcibly change their environment so that holding their views is no longer sustainable. Such as by getting them fired for it. They might change as a result, they might not, they might get hired somewhere else, or they might starve to death. Either way I think the balance of probability is that lovely people being fired is a net benefit to everybody else. You can call people out without getting them fired, no one is suggesting just shrugging and letting them get on with it. On this: quote:Being proletarian does not in any way suggest that someone is on your side, or even that they have a paritcular potential to be on your side. That sort of argument can do nothing but make excuses for lovely people, people's actual, existing outlook on the world is far more important than some imagined outlook you think they should have based on your understanding of class. You're just outright missing the point. They are by definition on the same side in the context of class struggle, whether they want to be or not. This isn't a choice, it's a socio-economic reality. Our material interests are identical, even if they've warped their whole mindset through alt-right propaganda. Their 'outlook' is completely irrelevant to this.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:45
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Failed Imagineer posted:Hope he's homeless and/or dead now. Same goes for the antivaxxer guy hey man, show some solidarity 
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Jan 27, 2022 15:49
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ThomasPaine posted:You can call people out without getting them fired, no one is suggesting just shrugging and letting them get on with it. Fascists (who this tactic is usually applied to) are the enemy regardless of their class, and should be destroyed by any means necessary including wielding our own enemy’s power against them.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:49
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This is literally an argument about a guy who doesn't want to get vaccinated against a disease that might kill him, and which probably hundreds of thousands of people in his exact position have died of for that exact reason, what possible better example could there be that your objective material interests do not remotely constrain what you will strive towads with every fiber of your being right up to the point where it kills you? People literally kill themselves believing things that are counter to their "material interests" so while I acknowledge that it can certainly provide some pressure in a desirable direction under some circumstances, it does not in any way make sense to me to suggest that it should take precedence over their actual, happening right now, actions and thoughts. At what point do we stop thinking of people as being just potential allies, because of one pressure among many that could once have pushed them towards having better ideas about the world, and start acknowledging that the overwhelming balance of their being, of the many pressures that have formed them into who they are, the lovely and stupid ones have won out, and that is simply who they are now? Base and superstructure might both exist but it does not make sense to me in the year of our lord 2022 to suggest that the base is entirely deterministic and the superstructure is always mutable. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 15:49
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^^ I think you're unhelpfully trying to individualise a term that only really means something collectively. Yes, some people act against their material interests. I don't think there was ever any doubt about that? Jakabite posted:Fascists (who this tactic is usually applied to) are the enemy regardless of their class, and should be destroyed by any means necessary including wielding our own enemy’s power against them. I'd argue that there are Fascists and there are fascists. The true believers, I agree with you 100%, but I don't think the vast majority of people going along with fascism do so because they're Fascists, I think they go along with it because it recognises the gaping contradictions, superficially at least, in the liberal status quo, and offers them a better life with a nice simple solution. The solution there is obviously much more effective left-wing PR and organisation and a much more firm rejection of liberalism to take on the Fascists at a convincing ideological level, but eh, very much an academic point at this juncture given the state of the British left. In the West at the moment I feel like the rise of the alt-right etc is more a failure of the left than through any real strategic insight from the right. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 16:00
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keep punching joe posted:Cackling intensifies It's wild that so much of British politics is just a survey of who reads what papers.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:02
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's wild that so much of British politics is just a survey of who reads what papers. But how, on god's good earth, could the tories have GAINED % in the last few weeks?
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Jan 27, 2022 16:07
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:But how, on god's good earth, could the tories have GAINED % in the last few weeks? The Sun, the Express, the Telegraph and the Mail have all backed off, satisfied that Boris will do as he's told and are wanking themselves off at the prospect of War with Russia. Edit: it also helps that most of Labour's bounce didn't come from new support but rather Tories saying they don't know who they'd vote for and now the initial shock is passed they're returning home. Gonzo McFee fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 16:08
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Initial "oh dear that is terrible" transitioning to "I've already heard about this and I'm not really bothered any more"
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Jan 27, 2022 16:09
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OwlFancier posted:Initial "oh dear that is terrible" transitioning to "I've already heard about this and I'm not really bothered any more" And the continuing underlying problem that Labour offer *nothing*. Not even the platitudes and soundbites of 1994 Blair, just a huge grey void.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:14
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Yea New New Labour can't even kayfabe that they won't just return things to their norm under Theresa May, let alone promise improvements.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:17
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ThomasPaine posted:
And I'd argue that you're full of poo poo, using history as my basis. This isn't like small-c conservatives, who absolutely do exist but don't subscribe to Tory ideology. There may or may not be people who are not true believers in fascist movements, but they have still shown that they are willing to accept fascist ideology because if you aren't, you don't survive in a fascist movement. You may wish to counter by saying "well maybe they're afraid to oppose the fascists". That is not totally without truth; there were a lot of Germans back in the day who said that they went along with Nazism because it seemed good for Germany and by the time they saw the truth they no longer knew who they could trust. But we know better now what Nazism is about. We no longer have the excuse of not knowing what to expect. If you sit down with the fascists now, then you are happy to let fascism rule. And that makes you a fascist.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:21
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Also again, what does it matter what is in the soul of a person? The world does not move on inner thoughts, it moves on what people actually do, and an rear end in a top hat with doubts is still just an rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:24
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Not that actors aren't entitled to rights and dignity, I preferred when actors weren't allowed to be buried on consecrated grounds tbh
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Jan 27, 2022 16:24
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there are thousands of working-class fascists, should we be supporting them too because of ~class struggle~?
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Jan 27, 2022 16:25
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ThomasPaine posted:I'd argue that there are Fascists and there are fascists. #notallfash
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Jan 27, 2022 16:26
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Juche Couture posted:Anyone else had a call from the firm taking on the labour party data breach case? It looks like they’re pursuing it from a personal injury standpoint of ‘anxiety caused’ which seems dumb to me but i know nothing about law Which company is this? I'm dealing with Keller Lenkner and they seem to be going down the GDPR route and seeking damages for process breaches.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:39
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I think it's pretty cool that falconer is a real and modern profession. The Dutch police were briefly using sea eagles to capture drones flying where they shouldn't be, but apparently they gave it up after a year because there just wasn't that much demand for massive drone-catching raptors. Anyway here are pictures of some red kites that I took when I was in Scotland around Christmas. Went to a feeding site and there were at least 50 of them flying around, swooping in to grab chunks of meat, and sitting in the trees digesting.   
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Jan 27, 2022 16:40
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ThomasPaine posted:Ah yes, people being made destitute. Hilarious, very good. Definitely something we should be applauding as socialists. So much for the tolerant left!
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Jan 27, 2022 16:43
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I'd feel bad for the guy if he hadn't made himself unemployed through not getting a jag that literally everyone else is getting
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Jan 27, 2022 16:44
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While I believe that class solidarity should come before anything else I know that it isn't the case in day-to-day life because that isn't how the actual world operates. I should be in solidarity with all members of the working class, but I'm not going to put aside differences in regards to homophobia/transphobia, racism, and anti-vax/COVID denialist thought. If someone loses their position due to these stances, I will care little for them because it is never a situation where they are instantly fired for these beliefs. There is always a process where their position becomes untenable. The exception here is in the media industry who will cut sooner rather than later, especially if the individual is not an A-list star. Still, most involved at this level wouldn't exactly qualify as working class. The ruling and bourgeois classes reinforce these dangerous views more than any other group and they will not let someone go for these views unless they have to under threat of legal action or because they see a media circus forming if they let them remain in their position. Because of this, there is bountiful time for the individual to educate themselves, and they have likely been engaged with by those they disagree with. Those who realize the damage they are doing to society will change and better themselves. The ones who are fired are those who do not want to, or are at this time incapable of, changing. Specifically with regards to anti-vax statements, there is little reason for someone to have reasonable doubts about it in 2022. The last three years have shown that COVID kills, vulnerable or not, and incapacitates a decent amount when it doesn't kill. We can also see that vaccines have had no measurable negative impact on the global population, outside of side-effects with the same rate of impacting you as a packet of paracetamol can suddenly inflame the liver and send you to hospital. Additionally, we can see that those who are vaccinated and especially those who are boosted are less likely to die or get seriously ill and very less likely to feel much of the impact that COVID imparts. Of course there are reasonable reasons for certain groups of people to avoid the vaccination, but let's be real here. None of the people with actual legitimate concerns are the loudest voices against the vaccine. I'm going on a limb here but I can confidently say, without any research, that this actor was not a member of a community who was impacted by doctors giving false or misleading information.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:48
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Jedit posted:And I'd argue that you're full of poo poo, using history as my basis. This isn't like small-c conservatives, who absolutely do exist but don't subscribe to Tory ideology. There may or may not be people who are not true believers in fascist movements, but they have still shown that they are willing to accept fascist ideology because if you aren't, you don't survive in a fascist movement.  The idea that 'you don't survive in a fascist movement if you're not a fascist' is historically illiterate nonsense, or should we have mass executed the entire population of Italy and Germany after WW2? How do we explain away the post-war development of these countries? Could it be that vast swathes of the population bought into the dominant ideology of the time because it was completely normalised but were, after the fact, able to recognise its evil and, in Germany's case, do a hell of a lot of national soul searching and self reflection? Sure, there were (are?) a few unrepentant Nazis, but they're a tiny minority, and the German state put into place more measures than you can count to incorporate that shame into the education system to the point even people my age have the horror of their history instilled into them. That doesn't scream 'everyone was an unsalvagable extremist' to me, if anything the opposite. E: without doing any stupid horseshoe theory bullshit, you see the same process in the post-communist states. Look at the Eastern bloc in the 70s and you'd think, drat, these people are really committed to communism. A few decades later, communism has fallen and lo and behold not everyone is a communist anymore. If anything communists are in the minority. Ideologies are not static or immutable, they are changed by context. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that people can't become better in the right circumstances, people can change and we should be trying to build a framework in which they are able to, not just dismissing them as beyond redemption. E2: and don't even get me started on Spain and (arguably) perhaps even Chile, which managed to transition to democracies despite the fascists still being in charge! ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 16:55
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big scary monsters posted:I think it's pretty cool that falconer is a real and modern profession. The Dutch police were briefly using sea eagles to capture drones flying where they shouldn't be, but apparently they gave it up after a year because there just wasn't that much demand for massive drone-catching raptors. Fabulous photos!
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Jan 27, 2022 16:55
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the more antivaxxers who end up on the street the better imo
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Jan 27, 2022 16:59
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Julio Cruz posted:the more antivaxxers who end up on the street the better imo like infectious zombies? That sounds bad.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:04
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The homeless are the most voiceless segment of society, it's the perfect destination for those whose voices we want to quash. Free homes should be given to anyone who gets vaccinated and admits that trans women are women and is willing to spare a room to a refugee though, 
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Jan 27, 2022 17:04
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Julio Cruz posted:the more antivaxxers who end up on the street the better imo Yeah, that's just what we need: more homeless people, especially those vulnerable to Covid. Bravo. Very left wing of you.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:04
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It does seem unfair to other homeless people to dump the vaccine idiots on them.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:07
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Prole posted:Yeah, that's just what we need: more homeless people, especially those vulnerable to Covid. Bravo. Very left wing of you. I mean thinking it through if this guy doesn't get an acting job it goes to someone else, so it's really more a choice of whether we want an antivaxxer to be homeless or a less melty person to be homeless poo poo things happen to people every day. Someone chuckling that a poo poo thing happened to someone who did something to deserve it for once is not them cheering on the poo poo thing, it's them enjoying that the poo poo thing that was going to happen to somebody happened to hit an arsehole instead of a nice person.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:07
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Gort posted:I mean thinking it through if this guy doesn't get an acting job it goes to someone else, so it's really more a choice of whether we want an antivaxxer to be homeless or a less melty person Yes this particular story was a bad example admittedly.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:08
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If anything that logic applies more to almost any other job, as I don't think that coronation street actors are a particularly inelastic commodity.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:09
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Fabulous photos! Thank you! Getting photos of swooping birds is hard so those are the good ones out of about 300 shots.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:15
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