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Na zdrowie! Smacznego!
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Jan 28, 2022 20:22
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You didn't indeed. What I was pointing at is that the current escalation of conflict between Russia and Ukraine was explicitly set up by Russia with the goal of having a confrontation - understanding that would not prevent Ukraine from facing the ongoing situation, unless you count total surrender as a successful self-defence strategy. As for arguing in favour of the official propaganda of the aggressor, sometimes full verbatim - that's just something that keeps happening in the thread from time to time, usually in the framework of "American bad and victim is supported by America, so what can I come up with for the offender's motivations"? ok. i misread you as accusing me of endorsing russia propaganda and reacted poorly. my bad. we’re both in agreement
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Jan 28, 2022 20:23
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I feel like my claim that pretty much every American posters basically can't conceive of the world without twisting anything to be about America has gotten a lot of support recently.Sinteres posted:This post has strong 'yet you participate in society, curious!' energy. The US government does force many businesses not to operate in Russia due to sanctions policy, but the default assumption is that businesses are free to operate wherever they want, and American sanctions are often an instrument of imperialism.
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Jan 28, 2022 20:40
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OddObserver posted:So what it's actually doing is spreading a manifesto published by a mass murderer and saying we ought to give a listen. Right. "What Putin wants" gets routinely reported as "Russia's interests". The #1 interest of any country in a dictatorship is to replace the dictatorship with a democratically elected government, and that's an interest the dictator will hardly ever express or pursue. "Interest" is also a flawed concept because not everything a government or country is interested in is in their best interest or compatible with other countries' interests, which means there are many "interests" that should be ignored.
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Jan 28, 2022 20:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I feel like my claim that pretty much every American posters basically can't conceive of the world without twisting anything to be about America has gotten a lot of support recently. Everything is going to be about America or Russia because those are the powers fighting over hegemony for a region right now. The Europeans got foreign policy taken away after 1945 thankfully.
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Jan 28, 2022 20:49
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:The #1 interest of any country in a dictatorship is to replace the dictatorship with a democratically elected government, and that's an interest the dictator will hardly ever express or pursue. Well...as a whole, Eastern Europe outside a few pet countries hasn't been very impressed with capitalist-democracy. If polls are anything to go by. Ukraine up until eight years ago was certainly not enamored with market economics & a multiparty system (this changed when the country that most benefits from that past annexed a significant chunk of the country). Even now, if I'm not mistaken, Ukraine generally polls unsatisfied with their current system (but are less likely to talk up the USSR, now that its nostalgic capitalist successor is grabbing chunks of the place).
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Jan 28, 2022 20:53
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Somaen posted:Definitely can't wait for the conflict to resolve so we get less Americans posting here Somaen posted:The problem is not Americans or people with a genuine interest that come with an approach of learning and understanding the situation better, we don't know where the anonymous people of this forum come from (and even if they're American they can be from here or have friends, family or personal ties). It's aggressively politically ideological people who come to score points for their position, this can be both an american viewing their country as a protagonist in a novel or an eastern euro chud. Both are fine to deal with with some well dosed aggroposting or moderation with more persistent cases If that is your belief, then please refrain from referring to the posters you dislike simply as "Americans."
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Jan 28, 2022 20:53
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https://mobile.twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1487095364209586183 What looks like the 76th Guards VDV is mobilizing. https://mobile.twitter.com/gerryagnew30/status/1487004651149041667 Russian strategic aviation up, transponder off, no announced drill. https://mobile.twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1487040042036080652 Russian Pacific fleet SAG spotted headed to the Mediterranean through Suez. https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1486938025787592704 C3 assets heading towards Belarus. This would complete the C3 fusion for Belarusian-stationed forces. https://mobile.twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1487055002686349312 Kremlin: Putin told Macron the US and NATO responses did not take into account Russia's 'fundamental concerns.' Kremlin: the key question was also ignored - how the US & allies intend to follow the principle of indivisibility of security fixed in OSCE & NATO-Russia documents, which stipulates that no one should strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other countries. https://mobile.twitter.com/Pabriks/status/1486704374738944001
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Jan 28, 2022 20:57
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FishBulbia posted:Everything is going to be about America or Russia because those are the powers fighting over hegemony for a region right now. The Europeans got foreign policy taken away after 1945 thankfully. Ahh, and the mask slips. Americans aren't doing any fighting. Ukrainians are.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:05
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Neurolimal posted:Well...as a whole, Eastern Europe outside a few pet countries hasn't been very impressed with capitalist-democracy. If polls are anything to go by. So a system in which people vote and their votes count is "capitalist-democracy", got it. I see no benefit in a discussion with someone who frames it like that. Also, I meant this as an objective general interest, not as what people said in a poll about a very specific thing that happened in the last few years or so. That's the problem with the term "interest".There are objective interests (like self-preservation) and other things people think they may want but that ultimately make things worse.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:05
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Conspiratiorist posted:For instance, I hold their objective is to secure a land bridge to Crimea for a number of strategic reasons, and that it's in service of this objective that they're leveraging Western media to create panic regarding major population centers in Ukraine to force Ukrainian Mil to concentrate defenses there as part of their maskirovka approach to conflicts (whereas in reality they wish to achieve their goals without forcing an urban fight larger than Mariupol, as Russians are incapable of seizing a large population center without turning it into a charnel house). They might not be going for a total takeover, but they'll almost surely attack, and the ongoing negotiations are performative. For what it’s worth, I do strongly agree with your take on expected minimum hostilities. While I’m at it, I’d like to clarify what I meant with imaginary posting enemies in your previous post, that came off as a rant at the thread. What I meant to say with “real people” is to call upon you to reflect on the fact that many posters here risk to lose friends or relatives in the event of a Russian attack on Ukraine, and as such they’re rightfully bound to have an emotional component to their view on the situation. Someone from Eastern Europe can simultaneously 1) call Putin “evil” for being an aggressor here, 2) call Putin a coward from local mentality perspective on what it means to an upstanding person (e.g., that he enables Kadyrov run a torture house, has done so for years beyond what was “necessitated” by “realpolitik calculus” of inter-clan warfare in Chechnya), and 3) analyse the situation with nuance and deliberation.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:07
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OddObserver posted:Ahh, and the mask slips. Americans aren't doing any fighting. Ukrainians are. Americans weren't fighting in Afghanistan in the 1980s, either. Was America not involved in that conflict, then?
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Jan 28, 2022 21:08
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TipTow posted:Americans weren't fighting in Afghanistan in the 1980s, either. Was America not involved in that conflict, then? That didn't make it a US-USSR conflict. It was a USSR-Afghanistan conflict in which US aid to Afghani fighters played a role. Edit: "proxy war" is generally a lovely term. People aren't fighting on behalf of distant imperial powers, rather they are taking advantage of whatever coincidence of interests there is to advance their cause. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 21:12
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OddObserver posted:Ahh, and the mask slips. Americans aren't doing any fighting. Ukrainians are. Oh so the conflict has nothing to do with NATO? Ukrainian revolution of the year 2014 nothing to do with orientation toward NATO? NATO is an American alliance. European members are not significant as independent agents.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:14
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TipTow posted:Americans weren't fighting in Afghanistan in the 1980s, either. Was America not involved in that conflict, then? The framing is the problem because it removes all agency from the people who are actually being affected. Adopting that framing is a problem because you've taken Russia's position vis-a-vis great/minor powers and spheres of influence as a starting point. Russia is fighting over Ukraine. The US is fighting over the principle that Ukraine gets to decide it's own destiny. Those are two different things. e: and if you are talking about another country's affairs without any reference to what the people living there actually want then I've got bad news that makes you an imperialist Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 21:15
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FishBulbia posted:Oh so the conflict has nothing to do with NATO? Ukrainian revolution of the year 2014 nothing to do with orientation toward NATO? NATO is an American alliance. European members are not significant as independent agents. Correct, it didn't. It was about the EU (aka, the economy), and there was no broad interest in NATO until Russian invasion. Yes, there were some attempts by some politicians to push it, but they quickly fizzled out as any widely unpopular move in a semi-functioning democracy.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:18
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Alchenar posted:The framing is the problem because it removes all agency from the people who are actually being affected. Adopting that framing is a problem because you've taken Russia's position vis-a-vis great/minor powers and spheres of influence as a starting point. Russia is fighting over Ukraine. The US is fighting over the principle that Ukraine gets to decide it's own destiny. Those are two different things. Liberal delusion. World functions on power. I would love to see it tore down and replaced by a system with a single universal state and universal representation, but that does not reflect reality.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:19
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OddObserver posted:Correct, it didn't. It was about the EU (aka, the economy), and there was no broad interest in NATO until Russian invasion. Yes, there were some attempts by some politicians to push it, but they quickly fizzled out as any widely unpopular move in a semi-functioning democracy. I'm not talking about the 2014 I'm talking about today. Counties of under 100 million without thermonuclear weapons are not actors in the same way as powers which can cause human extinction in 45 minutes. NATO is an American alliance.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:21
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FishBulbia posted:I'm not talking about the 2014 I'm talking about today. FishBulbia posted:Oh so the conflict has nothing to do with NATO? Ukrainian revolution of the year 2014 nothing to do with orientation toward NATO? NATO is an American alliance. European members are not significant as independent agents. What was this in reference to, then?
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Jan 28, 2022 21:22
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cinci zoo sniper posted:What was this in reference to, then? I meant I'm not concerned with the reason for the Russian invasion as the other guy is implying. Talking about the US policy toward Ukraine is relavent because NATO is one of the main parties involved in the strategic conflict!
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Jan 28, 2022 21:24
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:So a system in which people vote and their votes count is "capitalist-democracy", got it. I see no benefit in a discussion with someone who frames it like that. How many eastern-european states would you argue have moved towards a multi-party iteration of democracy but have not shifted in the direction of capitalism? There's a pretty obvious insinuation within global politics when discussing Democracy, that being one very specific form of democracy, typically packaged with capitalist reforms. You can count on one hand the number of states that transitioned from Authoritarian Totalitarian Fascist Dictatorship to multi-party democratic communism.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:27
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Alchenar posted:The framing is the problem because it removes all agency from the people who are actually being affected. Adopting that framing is a problem because you've taken Russia's position vis-a-vis great/minor powers and spheres of influence as a starting point. Russia is fighting over Ukraine. The US is fighting over the principle that Ukraine gets to decide it's own destiny. Those are two different things. I am trying to be cognizant of how I am framing things, for as Cincy mentioned I understand fully there are many people here in this thread with very real, human concerns about what is happening/going to happen in Ukraine. And I appreciate Cincy acknowledging that may color some posters' thoughts with the concomitant emotions of knowing people about to be living in a warzone. All that said, the reality is there is some great power realpolitik going on here, there has been since...forever, basically, and acknowledging that has nothing to do with being in the tank for Russia or Putin, or denying the agency of Ukrainians or other Eastern Europeans. Yes, this is on the surface a conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It will be Russians and Ukrainians dying. But to handwave away NATO and the U.S.'s role in what is going on is to deny reality. It's not always "making everything about America because Americans are insular navel-gazers," it's unfortunately making many things about America because America is the global hegemon, brittle and diminishing as that hegemomy may be, and America gets involved in nearly loving everything involving international relations. Alchenar posted:e: and if you are talking about another country's affairs without any reference to what the people living there actually want then I've got bad news that makes you an imperialist What is it with people editing in snipes? You type out a reasonable response to my post, but then decide after the fact "actually, lemme get a parting shot in on this person, that'll be productive."
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Jan 28, 2022 21:30
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It's telling of American hegemony that this is happening on an anglophone forum, that english is so universal that people have an expectation of something NOT to be anglo centric on an anglo forum.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:31
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Somaen posted:Definitely can't wait for the conflict to resolve so we get less Americans posting here "fewer Americans" please For schnitzelchat, there's a restaurant in Chopin airport in Warsaw, Bijanka. I really liked the food flying through  
Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 21:32
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Uh, the big threat to leftist movements in former Warsaw Pact isn't the US, it's people having lived under USSR or their puppet governments, which both discredits anything leftish to a great degree, and leaves left-over "communist" parties that have little of value to offer. Also, "they don't have my ideal flavor of communism, so might as well have a brutal murderous kleptocrat/oligarch" is a heck of a take.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:32
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OddObserver posted:Also, "they don't have my ideal flavor of communism, so might as well have a brutal murderous kleptocrat/oligarch" is a heck of a take. Supporting the autocratic enemy to bring down your hosed up govnmt is nothing new. Bolsheviks officially supported Russian defeat by just as autocratic germans. After all, can spread revolution to Germany later.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:35
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OddObserver posted:Uh, the big threat to leftist movements in former Warsaw Pact isn't the US, it's people having lived under USSR or their puppet governments, which both discredits anything leftish to a great degree, and leaves left-over "communist" parties that have little of value to offer. 
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Jan 28, 2022 21:37
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Rust Martialis posted:"fewer Americans" please That looks like a mournful schnitzel
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Jan 28, 2022 21:43
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TipTow posted:It's not always "making everything about America because Americans are insular navel-gazers," it's unfortunately making many things about America because America is the global hegemon, brittle and diminishing as that hegemomy may be, and America gets involved in nearly loving everything involving international relations.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:44
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TipTow posted:I am trying to be cognizant of how I am framing things, for as Cincy But to handwave away NATO and the U.S.'s role in what is going on is to deny reality. Uhh, that would be largely because for 8 years of war thus far NATO and US have basically done nothing but give lip service and symbolic sanction packages on former gas station attendants turned war criminals. They are doing a bit more now --- a symbolic amount of military equipment. (Also refusing to betray their actual members, which is nice, but not actually helping Ukraine). Look up what "стурбован" means in Ukrainian and ponder why that word has become something of a joke. Also, fundamentally, the West is a reactive party here. NATO isn't invading anyone. No one is being preemptively sanctioned, they are just threatening to do the minimum decency calls for in response, which can hardly be counted on.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:45
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OddObserver posted:Uhh, that would be largely because for 8 years of war thus far NATO and US have basically done nothing but give lip service and symbolic sanction packages on former gas station attendants turned war criminals. They are doing a bit more now --- a symbolic amount of military equipment. (Also refusing to betray their actual members, which is nice, but not actually helping Ukraine). Reactive or otherwise, do you deny that the US is currently hegemon of Europe? Or is it that you think international politics have forever changed since 1991, and the fundamental patterns no longer apply?
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Jan 28, 2022 21:49
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steinrokkan posted:That looks like a mournful schnitzel Here’s a mouthful of schnitzel from Berlin, not to prolong the food chat for much longer.  So, for scale: - Mojito glass was like 500 ml - Bread pieces where the size of half of my fist - There’s a pile of cubed potatoes and bacon underneath the schnitzel
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Jan 28, 2022 21:51
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bordering "we demand plates" energy with the balsamic (?) streak
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Jan 28, 2022 21:52
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The US is certainly currently not in a position to dictate European foreign policy unilaterally, no.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:52
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FishBulbia posted:Reactive or otherwise, do you deny that the US is currently hegemon of Europe? Or is it that you think international politics have forever changed since 1991, and the fundamental patterns no longer apply? Instead of drive by posting comments about some coffee shop revolution rhetoric, why don't you tell us what you think the international politics of Europe are? Then maybe we can figure out if you're using an imperialist or post-colonial perspective because I have such a hard time sussing out if you're just contradictory by nature or you have bad heuristics.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:52
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FishBulbia posted:. Counties of under 100 million without thermonuclear weapons are not actors in the same way as powers which can cause human extinction in 45 minutes. Do you at least recognize the problems caused by this framing?
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Jan 28, 2022 21:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, you say that, but this is literally how most American posters post about anything on this site. Like, even when America is not involved, or it's not even really about "politics". Any American poster has to reckon with that and be extra mindful of not falling into that trap, or even appearing to do so, if they want to avoid people thinking that's what they're doing. I agree, some (many) (edit: gently caress, most) Americans are insular navel-gazers. And if anyone in here or elsewhere is posting like that, call it out by all means. But it definitely feels like there's many people in this thread, that I take to have been regulars for many years, who are upset at the influx of new posters who may or may not be Americans bringing in OddObserver posted:Uhh, that would be largely because for 8 years of war thus far NATO and US have basically done nothing but give lip service and symbolic sanction packages on former gas station attendants turned war criminals. They are doing a bit more now --- a symbolic amount of military equipment. (Also refusing to betray their actual members, which is nice, but not actually helping Ukraine). So, you're upset that America and NATO didn't go to war with Russia back in 2014? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand the grievance I'm inferring you have with NATO and the U.S based on your first sentence.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:53
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Instead of drive by posting comments about some coffee shop revolution rhetoric, why don't you tell us what you think the international politics of Europe are? It's realism with a nice coat of liberalism which chips away whenever security concerns become existential. Refusal to consider Ukraine for MAP shows this.
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Jan 28, 2022 21:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Here’s a mouthful of schnitzel from Berlin, not to prolong the food chat for much longer. Good schnitzel, dubious choice of beverage, 3/5
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Jan 28, 2022 21:57
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German schnitzel has Invaded the thread we must stop then at once before they destroy our Olivier salad
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Jan 28, 2022 21:59
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