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steinrokkan posted:Good schnitzel, dubious choice of beverage, 3/5 That was the best virgin mojito of my life.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:00
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Still a mojito though
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Jan 28, 2022 22:01
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FishBulbia posted:It's realism with a nice coat of liberalism which chips away whenever security concerns become existential. Refusal to consider Ukraine for MAP shows this. Thanks for clearing that up for the thread.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:03
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That was the best virgin mojito of my life. Ok, downgraded to 2/5
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Jan 28, 2022 22:04
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Xarn posted:Do you at least recognize the problems caused by this framing? Nope. All states have agency but some have very limited menus of options.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:04
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TipTow posted:
No, that they didn't impose the sort of robust sanctions they are may be kinda considering now then. Like if you claim you care, but then your response is to ban some 4th rate officials (and a guy who would probably be dragged to the Hague the moment he stopped of a plane) from vacationing in the West, and you only do something of substance when Russia accidentally murders a bunch of Dutch school kids, well, it's kinda hard to view this as anything more than lip service for appearances sake, isn't it? And then of course you also go ahead with Nord Stream 2, which basically only exists to make it easier for Russia to cause pain to Ukraine w/o affecting Germany, including the present US president blocking Congressional attempts to stop it. And, well, empty posturing isn't much of being a party to the conflict, is it?
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Jan 28, 2022 22:04
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Neurolimal posted:How many eastern-european states would you argue have moved towards a multi-party iteration of democracy but have not shifted in the direction of capitalism? Okay, so if people in a democracy don't choose the system you favor, then it's better not to have a democracy at all. You want "democracy" on rails that can only lead to one outcome. Which means that you don't want self-determination for countries.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:04
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Here’s a mouthful of schnitzel from Berlin, not to prolong the food chat for much longer. steinrokkan posted:The US is certainly currently not in a position to dictate European foreign policy unilaterally, no. TipTow posted:I agree, some (many) (edit: gently caress, most) Americans are insular navel-gazers. And if anyone in here or elsewhere is posting like that, call it out by all means. But it definitely feels like there's many people in this thread, that I take to have been regulars for many years, who are upset at the influx of new posters who may or may not be Americans bringing in TipTow posted:So, you're upset that America and NATO didn't go to war with Russia back in 2014? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand the grievance I'm inferring you have with NATO and the U.S based on your first sentence.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:05
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Xarn posted:Still a mojito though Club Mate?
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Jan 28, 2022 22:06
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TipTow posted:But it definitely feels like there's many people in this thread, that I take to have been regulars for many years, who are upset at the influx of new posters who may or may not be Americans bringing in What people are upset with is not an influx of new posters, but increasingly loud conversations that don't care to acknowledge that there are other countries in Eastern Europe, populated by people who often bear the cost of decisions made by US, EU, Russia, or China. It's in some ways dehumanizing, even if I will refrain from drawing parallels to the unfortunately common Russian viewpoint that Ukraine isn't a real nation. Xarn posted:Still a mojito though steinrokkan posted:Ok, downgraded to 2/5 I don't drink alcohol. In general, I drink basically just water, coffee, Coke-style lemonades, and virgin mojitos. Occasional Tarkhun, if I'm feeling melancholic. Maybe tea, if it's winter, or I'm in a banya. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 22:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The point is that America and NATO has basically done nothing and America is still being blamed. The only thing I think they can be directly blamed for is being ambiguous about Ukraine's status when their member have clearly indicated a negative on membership. I think offiically declaring Ukraine will not be in for a decade at least and maybe putting it in writing will give enough of an offramp. Although I don't think Putin doesn't realize that Ukraine isn't going to NATO any time soon.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:10
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Thanks for clearing that up for the thread. Really if liberalism was the best description for euro security Ukraine would be being admitted no question outside of measures to get safe elections
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Jan 28, 2022 22:12
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:Okay, so if people in a democracy don't choose the system you favor, Well that's the thing. Prior to the recent wave of [entirely justified] russophobia, eastern europe in general did in fact prefer soviet communism*. There's simply no nonviolent offramp from capitalism, despite Choice being fetishized in multi-party democracies. *(There were certainly sections of soviet policies that EE largely does not favor when more granular questions are offered, but the economics, social security, and security are/were one of its stronger pollpoints.) Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 22:16
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OddObserver posted:No, that they didn't impose the sort of robust sanctions they are may be kinda considering now then. Like if you claim you care, but then your response is to ban some 4th rate officials (and a guy who would probably be dragged to the Hague the moment he stopped of a plane) from vacationing in the West, and you only do something of substance when Russia accidentally murders a bunch of Dutch school kids, well, it's kinda hard to view this as anything more than lip service for appearances sake, isn't it? I will agree that obviously not enough was done diplomatically to punish Russia for 2014. But if the U.S. is not a party to the conflict, why is America and Russia engaged in diplomacy over the matter? I don't understand how the U.S. can't be a party if they're (at least on face) trying to do something about the crisis. A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, the only thing that matters is whether you post like an insular navel-gazing American. Also, the American posting menace is not imagined, and being part of the forum hegemony one should be mindful of that fact. For real, please quote an example of me being a navel-gazing American. I know (think) you're not referring to me specifically when you say "you." But I am genuinely curious to see something I have said that would fit that bill, so that I can reflect on it. A Buttery Pastry posted:The point is that America and NATO has basically done nothing and America is still being blamed. I will disagree that America is blameless in all this, which I think is a source of a lot of consternation between groups of posters in here. But I really don't want to rehash that right now for a multitude of reasons--many people, myself included, have already laid out their positions on that. cinci zoo sniper posted:What people are upset with is not an influx of new posters, but increasingly loud conversations that don't care to acknowledge that there are other countries in Eastern Europe, populated by people who often bear the cost of decisions made by US, EU, Russia, or China. It's in some ways dehumanizing, even if I will refrain from drawing parallels to the unfortunately common Russian viewpoint that Ukraine isn't a real nation. Who is not acknowledging there are countries in EE other than Russia with people who shoulder the burden of US, EU, Russian, et al. actions?
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Jan 28, 2022 22:17
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Neurolimal posted:Well that's the thing. Prior to the recent wave of [entirely justified] russophobia, eastern europe in general did in fact prefer soviet communism*. There's simply no nonviolent from capitalism, despite Choice being fetishized in multi-party democracies. That poll ignores all the EE States that weren't in the USSR, which is most of them, and conveniently also lots of those that were. It's worse than useless.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:19
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It was, effectively, just a poll of those countries that didn't become liberal democracies and instead were saddled with post Soviet dictators, and Russia. And, I guess Ukraine in 2013, at the height of Yanukovich pro Russian kleptocracy, lol
steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 22:21
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TipTow posted:Who is not acknowledging there are countries in EE other than Russia with people who shoulder the burden of US, EU, Russian, et al. actions? If you ask me, vast majority of “retired CIA analyst”-style posts that go on about Russian spheres of influence or America marching through Europe towards Russia do intrinsically come off like that, because they leave an impression that there’s nothing worth mentioning there, that nations stuck in the middle amount not to people, but to props. But that’s my personal interpretation, I don’t expect every single Eastern European to share it.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:22
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Neurolimal posted:Well that's the thing. Prior to the recent wave of [entirely justified] russophobia, eastern europe in general did in fact prefer soviet communism*. There's simply no nonviolent from capitalism, despite Choice being fetishized in multi-party democracies. I mean, the proportion of the population that remembers being subsidied by Russia enjoys the memory of being subsidied by Russia, but that is also the generation that chose to break with Russia (or which Russia chose to break with). They obviously didn't prefer Soviet Communism, they dismatled it at the first opportunity. People who are retired also just tend ot like the past more because they have less of a stake in the opportunity of the present. As for the relationship with Russia, this is a good article with regards to how the Baltic states have ended up where they are: https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/83540
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Jan 28, 2022 22:27
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you ask me, vast majority of “retired CIA analyst”-style posts that go on about Russian spheres of influence or America marching through Europe towards Russia do intrinsically come off like that, because they leave an impression that there’s nothing worth mentioning there, that nations stuck in the middle amount not to people, but to props. But that’s my personal interpretation, I don’t expect every single Eastern European to share it. It's absolutely the implication of the Geopolitics strain of thinking. That even if we admit the are real people in the friction zones, their fates are pre-ordained by the necessities of grand politics, and so they don't deserve the effort that would be wasted in pointlessly considering them as actual human entities with agency. At best they can be eventually memorialized as inevitable victims of a system in which they were dealt a bad hand.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:30
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steinrokkan posted:That poll ignores all the EE States that weren't in the USSR, which is most of them, and conveniently also lots of those that were. It's worse than useless. There's several polls, I assume you're referring to the Gallup one that polled overall EE opinion of the USSR's dissolution demarcated by age brackets (since it explicitly mentions which states have not been polled); the countries excluded all poll negative towards the USSR yes, but they also comprise around...40 million? Of EE's nearly 300 million individuals; it likely would have tipped the balance in giving the youngest bracket a plurality that believe the dissolution was beneficial, but both points (that a majority of EE has positive views of the USSR, and that the more likely you are to have lived in the USSR the more likely you are to view it as having been a net positive) would still be true. Alchenar posted:I mean, the proportion of the population that remembers being subsidied by Russia enjoys the memory of being subsidied by Russia, but that is also the generation that chose to break with Russia (or which Russia chose to break with). They obviously didn't prefer Soviet Communism, they dismatled it at the first opportunity. They thought they could get better than what they had, for a number of factors, and found that the opposite was true. I'd chalk that up to buyer's remorse, personally.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:37
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you ask me, vast majority of “retired CIA analyst”-style posts that go on about Russian spheres of influence or America marching through Europe towards Russia do intrinsically come off like that, because they leave an impression that there’s nothing worth mentioning there, that nations stuck in the middle amount not to people, but to props. But that’s my personal interpretation, I don’t expect every single Eastern European to share it. Ukraine is a real country with agency, and if they want to try to get into NATO they can. I just want my country to exercise its own agency to say no.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:40
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Neurolimal posted:There's several polls, I assume you're referring to the Gallup one that polled overall EE opinion of the USSR's dissolution demarcated by age brackets (since it explicitly mentions which states have not been polled); the countries excluded all poll negative towards the USSR yes, but they also comprise around...40 million? Of EE's nearly 300 million individuals; it likely would have tipped the balance in giving the youngest bracket a plurality that believe the dissolution was beneficial, but both points (that a majority of EE has positive views of the USSR, and that the more likely you are to have lived in the USSR the more likely you are to view it as having been a net positive) would still be true. I referred to the poll jpg you posted itt. And again, there are certainly way more than 40 million people in Eastern European countries that we not polled, based on the available poll legend, because there's were Soviet satellites. And most of those who were polled live in non-liberal dictatorships so the point about the violent nature of liberal democracy isn't persuasive, especially if you are not even able to acknowledge the former USSR and (C)EE are not even close to overlapping. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jan 28, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2022 22:41
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Think I found the worst take https://twitter.com/alexbward/status/1487169865723035650?t=CuVDyefhJJ0fLI31Spezxw&s=09
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Jan 28, 2022 22:43
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you ask me, vast majority of “retired CIA analyst”-style posts that go on about Russian spheres of influence or America marching through Europe towards Russia do intrinsically come off like that, because they leave an impression that there’s nothing worth mentioning there, that nations stuck in the middle amount not to people, but to props. But that’s my personal interpretation, I don’t expect every single Eastern European to share it. Okay, I think I can start to see the origin of some of the problems here. Spheres of influence and imperialism are dehumanizing. Agreed 1000%. But I think there's a big difference between the dehumanizing actions of states and individuals posting on an Internet forum discussing said spheres and imperialism. Pointing out how Russia and the U.S. have treated/are treating Eastern European states like pawns is not the same as justifying it, or rationalizing it. I do see how or why Poles, or Latvians, etc. etc. etc. could still be irritated by such discussions. steinrokkan posted:It's absolutely the implication of the Geopolitics strain of thinking. That even if we admit the are real people in the friction zones, their fates are pre-ordained by the necessities of grand politics, and so they don't deserve the effort that would be wasted in pointlessly considering them as actual human entities with agency. At best they can be eventually memorialized as inevitable victims of a system in which they were dealt a bad hand. I live near a military installation that is widely recognized as a first priority target in the event of MAD. I, too, as an American, could theoretically be a victim of grand geopolitics with no agency of my own. This isn't something unique to "friction zones." Anyway, I feel like I've probably gone as far as I'm going to go without people wishing I'd die again, and I sincerely appreciate anyone who engaged with me during the last few pages. As for schnitzel chat, Mokotow posted:
Pork Take or leave the fried egg No cheese, definitely mushrooms Some asparagus or Knoedel
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Jan 28, 2022 22:45
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Neurolimal posted:They thought they could get better than what they had, for a number of factors, and found that the opposite was true. I'd chalk that up to buyer's remorse, personally. I really don't see that poll as asking anything more than 'would you prefer to still be part of a superpower', and of course the answer is yes but that isn't meaningful for a host of reasons.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:And most of those who were polled live in non-liberal dictatorships so the point about the violent nature of liberal democracy isn't persuasive. Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding; I intended to say "there's no nonviolent offramp from capitalism", not "there's no nonviolent form [of] capitalism", In my editing spree I excised Offramp. If you are interested in sharing more comprehensive polls, I would be quite interested in reading them. I'd be receptive towards a 2013/early 2014 poll and a 2021 poll, if you happen to be in abundance.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:48
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Sinteres posted:Ukraine is a real country with agency, and if they want to try to get into NATO they can. I just want my country to exercise its own agency to say no. That's perfectly fine, if you ask me. I may want something else, but it's your tax payments and your votes in elections. FishBulbia posted:Think I found the worst take This is like the actual worst timeline take.  Straight up деревня дураков material.
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Jan 28, 2022 22:49
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The Ukrainian mind is just not capable of parsing that something can happen soon, but not be inevitable
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Jan 28, 2022 22:55
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FishBulbia posted:Think I found the worst take i'm assuming there is no analogue to the word "грозящее" in the Ukrainian language loving hell how do you become a "National security reporter @politico" and refuse to even open the dictionary and look up words in the language you're making a big brain take on
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Jan 28, 2022 23:07
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^^^ Look, it's *Politico*. Sinteres posted:Ukraine is a real country with agency, and if they want to try to get into NATO they can. I just want my country to exercise its own agency to say no. Note that there is something of a difference between that being decided in general and this being declared under present circumstances.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:07
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jesus loving christ he just went on google translate didn't he
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Jan 28, 2022 23:11
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Has there been much English-language coverage of Ukrainian perspectives? All I've been able to find apart from some polling is a spread of interviews by Der Spiegel International. It is interesting to see the divisions between friends after 2014 and activist burnout among Euromaidan supporters. https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...59-a52dcedd674b
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Jan 28, 2022 23:19
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You mean like a longitudinal pulse check starting at Maidan revolution? Not that I know of.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:21
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TipTow posted:Pointing out how Russia and the U.S. have treated/are treating Eastern European states like pawns is not the same as justifying it, or rationalizing it. I do see how or why Poles, or Latvians, etc. etc. etc. could still be irritated by such discussions. The vast majority of these have a "realpolitick" shell, but are also thinly full of "poor Russia feeling scared and disrespected by jerk NATOmerica", that steers into the emotional human discussion while still completely leaving out the people in between.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:32
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I don't drink alcohol. Found the foreign plant, cinci can't be a slav.  FishBulbia posted:Think I found the worst take What The Christ
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Jan 28, 2022 23:35
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nurmie posted:i'm assuming there is no analogue to the word "грозящее" in the Ukrainian language Also isn't Zelensky a native Russian speaker? This is all so dumb.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:37
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FishBulbia posted:Nope. All states have agency but some have very limited menus of options. Well, given the current demographic situation almost everywhere, I don't see smaller states suddenly finding enough extra people to reach that magical 100M milestone, which leaves them with the nuclear option: let's just every get more nukes. I don't really like a world where the loud and clear message is "get nukes yo" 
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Jan 28, 2022 23:39
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That Politico take is probably among the worst takes I've ever seen printed and published, good lord.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:45
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FishBulbia posted:Think I found the worst take So the translation thing is dumb, but I think the underlying point is probably right, where Zelensky thinks the US is presenting an air of inevitability with some of the statements and the embassy withdrawal and everything, which could lead to Russia feeling like the cake's pretty much been baked and they may as well hop on over. That's obviously a simplification, and I don't think the US has quite that level of power with its tone alone, but I do think the US is extremely bad about using overheated language and is pretty lousy at public diplomacy in general, partially because blinkered Manichean thinking really is a problem here, and partially because everything's so dumbed down for domestic consumption. I have a lot more hope for the four party talks with Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany than anything involving the US.
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Jan 28, 2022 23:46
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peej posted:Also isn't Zelensky a native Russian speaker? This is all so dumb. And a fluent English speaker...
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Jan 28, 2022 23:50
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