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https://www.motortrend.com/news/one-gemini-battery-tesla-model-s-range-test/ Someone made a battery that fits in a stock Tesla with double the range: quote:Our Next Energy—stylized as ONE and based out of Novi, Michigan—has achieved just that using a battery the same size as the Tesla Model S P100's battery pack. Dubbed "Gemini," the battery pack employs ONE's own battery management and controls, and it was installed in an otherwise unmodified the Model S. quote:The entire trip was 752 miles without needing to stop to recharge the Gemini battery and a total discharge rate of C/10, or about a 20 kW rate. (The drivers, of course, needed and took breaks.) According to ONE, the battery hovered at around 32 degrees and required no active cooling for the entire (apparently cold-weather) drive. quote:After arriving back at ONE headquarters, the team put the Gemini-equipped Model S on a charger at a rate of 1C, or about a 200 kW charge rate. For now, that's all that has been tested and ONE has not tried a higher rate than that. Once at full capacity, the Model S was driven to a third party dyno facility, where it was put through a simulated 20 percent Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule (UDDS) and Highway Fuel Economy Test (HWFET) drive cycles and 80 percent driving at a constant 55 mph. While observing roughly the same Wh per mile consumption, the dyno test was able to achieve 882 miles of range quote:The Gemini isn't some wild idea battery using unobtainum minerals, nor is it some unusual chemistry. We asked Mujeeb Ijaz, president and CEO of ONE, what the battery was made of. "The production intent Gemini battery will be LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate, also known as LiFePo4) for the traction battery portion," he said, "and a new cell ONE is designing for the range extender without cobalt, nickel, and graphite." We also asked about the weight of the cells and how many they were able to fit in the Model S, however, Ijaz stated that the cells were still experimental, but, "We had a total of 203.7 kWh at a system level." quote:The standard P100 pack is roughly 103.9 kWh, so they were able to double the capacity without needing a larger space and without much of a weight penalty, either, and that is the goal. "The ONE Gemini battery aims to eliminate range as a barrier to electric vehicle adoption by doubling the available energy on board in the same package space," said Ijaz. quote:While the ONE Gemini battery isn't quite ready for market now, it's not far off. Ijaz said that ONE will have a production sample ready by 2023 with production of their Gemini battery pack by 2026. An exact cost of the Gemini hasn't been released yet, either, but ONE expects it to initially cost the same as current nickel-cobalt based lithium batteries. If all of this can be accomplished and put into production, the Gemini solves another portion of the "EV problem" detractors scream about, as well: the mining of cobalt.
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Jan 29, 2022 18:00
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marshmonkey posted:https://www.motortrend.com/news/one-gemini-battery-tesla-model-s-range-test/ I wonder if Tesla has kept LiFePo4 in its pocket for a while now, and has been waiting to stop sitting on it once they have more competitive pressure. LiFePo4 is already common in the amateur radio community. I wonder if that’s what they’re using for their new 12v batteries. Not sure about production or safety considerations though.
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Jan 29, 2022 18:34
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Aino Minako posted:I wonder if Tesla has kept LiFePo4 in its pocket for a while now, and has been waiting to stop sitting on it once they have more competitive pressure. LiFePo4 is already common in the amateur radio community. I wonder if that’s what they’re using for their new 12v batteries. The standard range cars built in China have been LiFePo4 since late 2020. Those guys haven't been very forward with exactly how they've done it. Have they built cooling, does it have the same safety and so on. Extraordinary claims etc.
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Jan 29, 2022 18:52
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Wasn't the main reason LiFePo4 hadn't hit mainstream yet because of a bunch of patents on it which just recently expired? Also there are tradeoffs, it is less energy dense by volume+weight and takes a bigger hit from cold than NMC in exchange for being more durable and able to charge to 100% all the time.
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Jan 29, 2022 18:53
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Yeah it reeks of unscalable vaporware like most motorcycle EVs that pop up with "most _____ ever taking deposits now".
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Jan 29, 2022 18:56
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Indiana_Krom posted:Wasn't the main reason LiFePo4 hadn't hit mainstream yet because of a bunch of patents on it which just recently expired? Also there are tradeoffs, it is less energy dense by volume+weight and takes a bigger hit from cold than NMC in exchange for being more durable and able to charge to 100% all the time. This was my understanding too. But it seems they do ok in real world testing in cold environments ( I think Bjorn has done testing with a MIC Model 3). It seems as if it's a really good chemistry for cheaper cars. I kinda wish my SR+ was LiFePo4j, as could just keep it charged to it's maximum range all the time, and the battery is slightly larger for more range overall. Still charges about the same too.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:10
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Said test here, deliberately letting it get cold before trying to charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kasVkxjm1Xc My work rents an apartment at that hotel and I've booked it in February. Hopefully the destination charger is free when I arrive.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:33
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Indiana_Krom posted:Wasn't the main reason LiFePo4 hadn't hit mainstream yet because of a bunch of patents on it which just recently expired? Also there are tradeoffs, it is less energy dense by volume+weight and takes a bigger hit from cold than NMC in exchange for being more durable and able to charge to 100% all the time. lifepo4 are also alot more safe then NMC.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:38
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Are they making up in lost energy density by needing less fire-proofing in the case compared to NMC? I though LFP and NMC designs were getting pretty mature with the differences pretty well locked in so Im not getting how they are getting double the kwh in the same volume space.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:thats just wrong If that's wrong, I don't want to be right
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Jan 29, 2022 20:07
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Are they making up in lost energy density by needing less fire-proofing in the case compared to NMC? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS1J1AyFrjo
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Jan 29, 2022 23:44
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They're probably using pouch cells instead of vape cells so can actually fill the volume. It's probably not that helpful but the Taycan's range estimate is pretty accurate provided you always stick the destination into the nav. I guess I live somewhere hilly so it's important it knows the gradient to calculate the consumption. Wonder what the other owners' experiences ITT are. (I still love it, it's a total pleasure to drive and amazing something so calm and comfortable on the autoroute can be so sharp in the mountains.)
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Jan 30, 2022 00:05
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On this note, are tesla powerwalls lfp or nmc? Seems like if they are the latter it would be a non-starter to put something so much more dangerous in your house than competitor lfps.
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Jan 30, 2022 00:19
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I think the ending of this video is a good example of why NMC is just not a good idea in a large pouch cell format. Stabbing metal through an NMC 18650 or 2170 makes it go off like a firecracker, where as stabbing metal through a NMC large pouch cell fills a considerable amount of the surrounding area with fire immediately. SpaceCadetBob posted:On this note, are tesla powerwalls lfp or nmc? Seems like if they are the latter it would be a non-starter to put something so much more dangerous in your house than competitor lfps.
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Jan 30, 2022 00:32
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Indiana_Krom posted:Battery degradation is a thing that happens no matter what you do, but trying to guess how much one has is a fools errand. Leafs have an app (aftermarket with an obd2 dongle) that reads the gids, essential when buying a used one since the car is designed to lie and hide the true battery condition. Not sure if it works on newer ones.
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Jan 30, 2022 03:09
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The car doesn't lie (unless someone does a reset which will also confuse Leafspy for a while), the problem is it only has 12 capacity bars so that 10 bar car could be 78 or 72%
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Jan 30, 2022 04:05
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cruft posted:We just turned off estimated range on the Model 3, we only get percentage now. Miles wound up not being helpful here in the mountains, it was always way off since it was based on the last n miles driven. I like that the range display in the 3 effectively gets me an unscaled capacity meter. My 3 from day one only ever showed 300 miles when full so I just mentally divide the miles left by 3 to get a percent, so when it's cold and 100% is only displaying as mid 270s miles, I know I only have "90%". If there were a way to make percent show as percent of when new rather than percent of the current local maximum that would be nice.
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Jan 30, 2022 05:04
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Qwijib0 posted:I like that the range display in the 3 effectively gets me an unscaled capacity meter. My 3 from day one only ever showed 300 miles when full so I just mentally divide the miles left by 3 to get a percent, so when it's cold and 100% is only displaying as mid 270s miles, I know I only have "90%". If there were a way to make percent show as percent of when new rather than percent of the current local maximum that would be nice. The only thing that can be directly measured on a battery is the voltage, and measuring it only tells you the state of charge. All displays of capacity are estimates based on how much the voltage changes after the battery releases x amount of energy. So you can't have a BMS say "The battery only has this percentage of its original capacity remaining" because the voltage at 100% state of charge is the same even on a battery with capacity loss and estimates at the capacity can vary by a LOT depending on conditions. When your model 3 pack was brand new and charged to 100% the standing voltage would be around 400v. Now that it is degraded some when you charge it to 100% the standing voltage is STILL around 400v. The only way to guess the capacity is say you drive some distance using 35 kWh of energy in the process and the state of charge decreases by 52%. You can use those numbers to perform some relatively simple math: 35 kWh / 0.52 = 67.3 kWh which is your estimated capacity. Keep in mind that capacity varies with temperature, a batteries usable capacity is significantly reduced while it is cold and significantly increased when it is hot.
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Jan 30, 2022 13:44
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Indiana_Krom posted:The only thing that can be directly measured on a battery is the voltage, and measuring it only tells you the state of charge. All displays of capacity are estimates based on how much the voltage changes after the battery releases x amount of energy. So you can't have a BMS say "The battery only has this percentage of its original capacity remaining" because the voltage at 100% state of charge is the same even on a battery with capacity loss and estimates at the capacity can vary by a LOT depending on conditions. Can’t you measure how quickly the battery fills? The same thing you’re saying except while charging instead of discharging? Seems like it would be more accurate.
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Jan 30, 2022 14:36
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Indiana_Krom posted:The only thing that can be directly measured on a battery is the voltage This is true - but you can also measure the current going in/out of the battery and integrate that over time to get a (reasonable) estimate. That's what shunts are for.
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Jan 30, 2022 14:58
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bird with big dick posted:Can’t you measure how quickly the battery fills? The same thing you’re saying except while charging instead of discharging? Seems like it would be more accurate. You can, and the BMS probably does use it in the estimate but the charging losses can make it a little different from discharging, it always takes more energy to charge a battery than you will get back from discharging it. Granted there are also losses to heat when discharging a battery, but if you are measuring the usable energy that you actually get out of the battery then those losses are already included and don't have to be factored in.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:12
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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1486772334635536395?s=21 what a piece of poo poo I was recommending Teslas in spite of all the Musk BS, but I think I’m done ever doing that again. Toyota’s 72 EVs can’t get here fast enough
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Jan 30, 2022 15:20
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Same, I cashed out on my Model X for 72k the other day (2k more than what I paid  ) with the intent of downsizing to a 3 but the weird software designs, forcing ACC to rely on pure cameras, the build quality being mid, and elon being such a huge rear end in a top hat (about multiple things, not just covid stuff) I dont think I can buy a Tesla again until they seriously change a lot of stuff.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:38
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Ok Comboomer posted:https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1486772334635536395?s=21 Had to go research what this meant. GDI.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:56
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Just further evidence that musk's dedication to EVs is not about doing a social good, but purely about making money. E: yeah fair enough. With other companies you can at least plausibly entertain the possibility that the motive even slightly involves some good will. Musk snuffs that out pretty regularly. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 16:13
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Just further evidence that musk's dedication to EVs is not about doing a social good, but purely about making money. I mean, so is every other car company’s, but at least their C-suite guys are tactful enough to keep their abhorrent politics to themselves
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Jan 30, 2022 16:15
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The irony being Tesla is trying to put truckers out of work with autonomous ev big rigs. It’s all about creating rear end in a top hat chaos energy for him. It’s not a main reason why I’m not really interested in getting a tesla but it’s there.
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Jan 30, 2022 16:18
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Has anyone seen any EV6s in the wild? That press release said they’ve be showing up end of the month, I think?
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Jan 30, 2022 16:25
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Indiana_Krom posted:The only thing that can be directly measured on a battery is the voltage, and measuring it only tells you the state of charge. Wibla posted:This is true - but you can also measure the current going in/out of the battery and integrate that over time to get a (reasonable) estimate. That's what shunts are for. Feeling like Im brain dead today or something, but isn’t measuring internal resistance under load the standard way of measuring battery health over time?
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Jan 30, 2022 17:04
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Has anyone seen any EV6s in the wild? That press release said they’ve be showing up end of the month, I think? Seen a few here in Sweden. Not many though. Read they have some issues with the heating being flaky which is suboptimal during the winter here. Neighbor works for a dealer and has an Ioniq 5. Nice looking car too.
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Jan 30, 2022 17:37
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I saw my first Ioniq 5 at a BC Hyundai dealer yesterday. The flat grey is excellent and, as has been widely noted, the car is much larger in person. I had a moment of “if this car is for sale, I may end up buying it.” It was sold and awaiting pickup from its new owner. Super impressed overall and I’ll likely put a deposit down when they reopen orders.
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Jan 30, 2022 17:53
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mexecan posted:I saw my first Ioniq 5 at a BC Hyundai dealer yesterday. The flat grey is excellent and, as has been widely noted, the car is much larger in person. I had a moment of “if this car is for sale, I may end up buying it.” It was sold and awaiting pickup from its new owner. Wow nice! My order at lougheed hyundai in coquitlam is supposedly going to be in in October, that rocks they are getting them in now though. I picked the blue but the flat grey is also tempting..
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Jan 30, 2022 17:56
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marshmonkey posted:https://www.motortrend.com/news/one-gemini-battery-tesla-model-s-range-test/ WTF is this? LFP has safety and C rate advantages over NMC chemistries but the comparative energy density is terrible. There are some mixed chemistry packs out there though.
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Jan 30, 2022 17:57
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Feeling like Im brain dead today or something, but isn’t measuring internal resistance under load the standard way of measuring battery health over time?
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Jan 30, 2022 18:11
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This weekend i went to multiple dealers to check the current awd landscape and came back a bit beaten up, every vehicle i checked was massive (enjaq, id4 and ioniq5) or was back ordered to hell (ev6). I will need to re evaluate options since my parking doesn’t fit land barges.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:11
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movax posted:WTF is this? LFP has safety and C rate advantages over NMC chemistries but the comparative energy density is terrible. There are some mixed chemistry packs out there though.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:16
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Indiana_Krom posted:I do wonder if the pack they assembled for that run has some kind of hero chemistry that has incredibly high energy density in exchange for having a cycle life of only a hundred or so charges before it is spent. Or no active cooling and very weak structural integrity.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:26
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SlowBloke posted:This weekend i went to multiple dealers to check the current awd landscape and came back a bit beaten up, every vehicle i checked was massive (enjaq, id4 and ioniq5) or was back ordered to hell (ev6). I will need to re evaluate options since my parking doesn’t fit land barges. Not sure what your use-case is, but I went through a smilar thing and gave up, buying a FWD Niro EV since I needed a car now and wanted AWD rather than NEEDED it.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:54
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SlowBloke posted:This weekend i went to multiple dealers to check the current awd landscape and came back a bit beaten up, every vehicle i checked was massive (enjaq, id4 and ioniq5) or was back ordered to hell (ev6). I will need to re evaluate options since my parking doesn’t fit land barges. Ev6 is the same size as the ioniq 5, no? EV stuff still takes up space, so you need to weigh up the compromises you're willing to accept.
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Jan 30, 2022 20:29
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SlowBloke posted:This weekend i went to multiple dealers to check the current awd landscape and came back a bit beaten up, every vehicle i checked was massive (enjaq, id4 and ioniq5) or was back ordered to hell (ev6). I will need to re evaluate options since my parking doesn’t fit land barges. Have you considered the Polestar 2
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