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Feliday Melody posted:I know for a fact that Russia uses drones to spy on our installations. Feliday Melody posted:What I can't figure out is why you are so deeply personally invested in convincing people otherwise. Is this the part where you accuse me of being a useful idiot?  You didn't really ask for an explanation, but I'll give you one anyway. I moonlight as a historian and have a particular interest in Cold War Sweden, and especially the military-industrial complex. For several years I spent every Wednesday evening and a lot of Saturday afternoons in the national military archives. I think I can say without exaggeration that I'm well read on the subject of the Swedish military opinion of supposed Russian violations of Swedish territory. Because of this I see a lot of history repeating itself. In some cases this is because things that were true then are still true now - just to take one example, the air force's road bases are very cold war-esque but the concepts aren't outdated. In other cases I see mistakes being repeated, like with these supposed drones. In the archives it's very easy to see with the benefit of hindsight when the military is drawing nonsensical conclusions based on incomplete or outright faulty data. It's very common, because acting on incomplete information is something the military has to do every day. It's not really their fault. Still, it's frustrating that they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. The pattern is very obvious: there's a lot of dubious eyewitness accounts, no tangible evidence, and a lot of "no comment". The first thing they start you out with in history 101 is how to evaluate sources, and that's a very handy skill to have when it comes to these things. The fact that I think the military is being stupid about this particular threat doesn't mean I think the military is unnecessary or that Russia doesn't have an interest in intelligence gathering here in Sweden. Sitting on a superpower's doorstep is always a headache. I don't think Russia is a direct military threat to Sweden right now in any meaningful way, but if they start poo poo in Ukraine things might escalate and then who knows what might happen. I do think though that just like most Swedish people, the Swedish military has a tendency to vastly overestimate how much people in other countries care about Sweden. You'd think at some point the military would stop and wonder why there's so much supposedly Russian intelligence activity here compared to everywhere else in Europe. All I want is for the defense policy to be based on facts (or as close to facts as can be established) and a well-reasoned analysis of the strategic situation. Making decisions and threat analysis based on notoriously unreliable and incomplete sources has no part in that. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 14:37
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Do not care. Just not leaving your BS unchallenged. Do what you like. I cannot for the life of me figure out what you gain by trying to convince people to not take drones around military installations seriously. Or what good defence policy involves not dealing with them.
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Jan 29, 2022 14:59
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Feliday Melody posted:Do not care. Just not leaving your BS unchallenged. Do what you like. going "nuh uh" as a response isn't very conducive to a productive debate, you know TheFluff fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:01
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TheFluff posted:going "nuh uh" as a response isn't very conducive to a productive debate, you know I don't care about a debate, and I don't care about convincing you. Just maybe get one less human to fall for the argument that drones should be ignored. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 29, 2022 15:03
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of all the things i worry about some drones don’t even loving register
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Jan 29, 2022 15:05
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Feliday Melody posted:I don't care about a debate, and I don't care about convincing you. Just maybe get one less human to fall for the argument that drones should be ignored. I'm sure someone appreciates it. You're being extremely convincing by refusing to engage with anything anyone says. What the military should be saying about drones is primarily something along the lines of "it's very hard to judge distances at night" and whatnot. Encouraging people to report everything they see just leads to a lot of nonsense reports (people see what they expect to see or have been told to watch for) and a completely misleading public perception of "the threat" (scare quotes intentional). It is the military's responsibility to inform and educate the public on this. They should be calming the public down instead of encouraging this media circus. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:07
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In my head there's a constant mental struggle ongoing whether it is drones or kärnavfall I should care the absolute least about.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:08
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TheFluff posted:To put it very bluntly, no you do not. You may have been told that there is evidence, but if there actually was we wouldn't even be having this discussion and there would have been a diplomatic incident. This is a really bad argument as it only becomes a diplomatic incident if: 1. The perpetrator is known 2. You are willing to prove it and thereby flaunt your own capabilities or lack there of. 3. Your government deems it important enough to make it an official diplomatic incident. You can be completely sure that a smallish recon drone took pictures of your military base but if you can't shoot it down and it appears and/or disappears from your tracking radar without a trace it is literally the definition of a UFO and you are poo poo out of luck without other proof like communication tracking etc.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:40
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Feliday Melody posted:I know for a fact that Russia uses drones to spy on our installations. Post evidence.
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Jan 29, 2022 15:40
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Zudgemud posted:This is a really bad argument as it only becomes a diplomatic incident if: The statement I was responding to explicitly said it was a fact that it was the Russians, which sorta requires more than "we saw something that totally wasn't clutter on the radar". In historical air force incident reports I've read the diplomatic protests are more common than you'd think, although many of them are more along the lines of diplomatic notes and I don't know if they were published much. At least I don't think things like accidental overflights where the intruding nation apologized were. At least in the 60's incidents where some Western signals intelligence or recon aircraft accidentally touched on Swedish airspace and then apologized were in fact far more common than Warsaw pact incidents (which were practically nonexistent, aside from things like Bulgarian airliners on the Helsinki-Sofia route habitually taking a route over Fårö, which was a restricted area in its entirety back then), but I haven't studied air force incidents that much. Not having any evidence also didn't stop the government from making a diplomatic incident out of the submarines in the 80's, for one thing. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 15:56
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KozmoNaut posted:Post evidence. This is dumb, if there is evidence it won't be posted on the loving internet for obvious reasons. You can say that you don't believe it unless you see the proof yourself but to harp on that someone should post non public military information is just loving dumb. Just ignore the poster and drop the subject if it bothers you that much.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:01
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Zudgemud posted:This is dumb, if there is evidence it won't be posted on the loving internet for obvious reasons. You can say that you don't believe it unless you see the proof yourself but to harp on that someone should post non public military information is just loving dumb. Just ignore the poster and drop the subject if it bothers you that much. But in this case there's not even any public military information. I googled for this supposed Aurora drone and found that the military has only stated that it has received reports about drones. If you want to make the case that Russian drones are a fact I think the bar should be a little bit higher than just claiming it out of thin air. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 16:08
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Zudgemud posted:This is dumb, if there is evidence it won't be posted on the loving internet for obvious reasons. You can say that you don't believe it unless you see the proof yourself but to harp on that someone should post non public military information is just loving dumb. Just ignore the poster and drop the subject if it bothers you that much. TheFluff posted:The statement I was responding to explicitly said it was a fact that it was the Russians, which sorta requires more than "we saw something that totally wasn't clutter on the radar".
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Jan 29, 2022 16:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:They should stop posting poo poo that they can't produce evidence for. I guess you have to prove that the drones are Russian by either capturing them or having very conclusive evidence for a diplomatic protest to be in order. And doing the latter without revealing the extent of your monitoring capabilities seems like an issue. Also, in these days of mobile cameras there should be some form of photographic evidence. The difference between this and ufo sightings seems nonexistent. That said, TheFluff is the definition of a MÖP.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:17
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TheFluff posted:The statement I was responding to explicitly said it was a fact that it was the Russians, which sorta requires more than "we saw something that totally wasn't clutter on the radar". In historical air force incident reports I've read the diplomatic protests are more common than you'd think, although many of them are more along the lines of diplomatic notes and I don't know if they were published much. At least I don't think things like accidental overflights where the intruding nation apologized were. At least in the 60's incidents where some Western signals intelligence or recon aircraft accidentally touched on Swedish airspace and then apologized were in fact far more common than Warsaw pact incidents (which were practically nonexistent, aside from things like Hungarian airliners on the Helsinki-Sofia route habitually taking a route over Fårö, which was a restricted area in its entirety back then), but I haven't studied air force incidents that much. Not having any evidence also didn't stop the government from making a diplomatic incident out of the submarines in the 80's, for one thing. Yes, which is why you have to tick the remaining boxes too. For example, if you can track it completely, have comms evidence that shows the mission profile, but is not able to shoot it down due to low preparedness or lovely hardware, there is no point in advertising this fact via a diplomatic memo or a press conference, it just highlights weaknesses in your defence apparatus. Edit: A Buttery Pastry posted:They should stop posting poo poo that they can't produce evidence for. Wholeheartedly agree. Zudgemud fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 16:17
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Zudgemud posted:Yes, which is why you have to tick the remaining boxes too. For example, if you can track it completely, have comms evidence that shows the mission profile, but is not able to shoot it down due to low preparedness or lovely hardware, there is no point in advertising this fact via a diplomatic memo or a press conference, it just highlights weaknesses in your defence apparatus. While this is reasonable in general, I don't think it matches up well with what we've seen the military actually do when it comes to handling things like these. When they think they have evidence for something, they hold a press conference about it. Preventing violations of Swedish territory is a big loving deal and they want to remind people of that. Remember the whole submarine debacle a couple of years ago for example? Big press conference, claims of evidence from many different sources and whatnot. Of course a lot of it turned out to be hogwash but nevertheless, they went out there and said it. With the drones they're being a lot more vague and just saying very general things like "yeah we get a lot of reports about drones around exercises". Going from that to "Russian drones spying on Swedish installations is a fact" is an enormous stretch. e: just to recap, the original claim here was that during a military exercise, a car-sized drone took off from a ship in the Baltic and overflew Swedish military installations. That's not something you just let slide. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 16:33
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If the authorities don't say they have evidence then you shouldn't go online to say you have evidence (that you just can't reveal) because it undermines national security and makes you sound like a douchebag. Or maybe you are the Swedish Jason Bourne and Säpo are also trying to nail you, in which case you should  But mysteries and charades are not credible.
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Jan 29, 2022 16:42
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I mean, what did people see over Gröna Lund then? I assume yeah, some of those sightings are fake, but I highly doubt all of them are.
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Jan 29, 2022 19:12
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fnox posted:I mean, what did people see over Gröna Lund then? I assume yeah, some of those sightings are fake, but I highly doubt all of them are.  Or perhaps the Swedish version is more apt? 
Potrzebie fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 19:24
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Potrzebie posted:Or perhaps the Swedish version of more apt? Hell yeah
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Jan 29, 2022 19:32
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fnox posted:I mean, what did people see over Gröna Lund then? I assume yeah, some of those sightings are fake, but I highly doubt all of them are. The article I posted on the previous page provided some answers. Airliners, general aviation, radio masts, other various lights that people think are closer than they actually are, and in a few cases actual hobbyist drones and RC planes (it seems the police has some stationary equipment for finding the controller for these, which is interesting). Judging size from a distance is hard and extremely so in darkness, and not a single one of these observations was during daylight. They started with over 200 reports and only about 30 are still open as under investigation, at least by the regular police. As such, a large majority of them are in fact confirmed to be fake already. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 19:51
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Lehugo posted:The lack of restrictions on advertising (and in general) for loans and online casinos is just utterly baffling. Couple that with the lack of information on better loans and ways to manage your economy and stuff gets real bad. It causes tons of pain for way more Swedes than most people think, reality is far worse than Lyxfällan. norway actually has pretty strict gambling regulations which are constantly being undermined by major figures like magnus carlsen because of the marketisation of sports leading to sportspeople being in business first and foremost. they are also undermined by broadcasting rules being effectively impossible to enforce consistently for some reason. i do not know why we can't just ban broadcasts from the UK, for instance, which now make up a fair chunk of norwegian gambling advertisement. i deeply resent the specific point of time in which i live. i suspect this would also have been the case at any other time and i am just a cantankerous reactionary of some sort.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:34
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also as a general rule you can completely ignore whatever hysteria is surrounding national security issues at any given moment unless presented concrete and detailed information about what's going on. there's an awful lot of nonsense and no actors involved have any interest in putting a lid on things unless they're genuinely out of control.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:36
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V. Illych L. posted:i deeply resent the specific point of time in which i live. i suspect this would also have been the case at any other time and i am just a cantankerous reactionary of some sort. Nah, the suck is palpable unless you're privileged, ignorant, or both.
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Jan 30, 2022 02:51
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V. Illych L. posted:norway actually has pretty strict gambling regulations which are constantly being undermined by major figures like magnus carlsen because of the marketisation of sports leading to sportspeople being in business first and foremost. they are also undermined by broadcasting rules being effectively impossible to enforce consistently for some reason. i do not know why we can't just ban broadcasts from the UK, for instance, which now make up a fair chunk of norwegian gambling advertisement. Counterpoint: https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/GQnzzx...norske-markedet Basically, the enforcement these days mostly focuses on blocking transactions to gambling companies and their payment providers, and there are hints that it's reducing their income enough to bother them. Which doesn't immediately remove the ads, but if it reduces the value of Norway as a market it may still have an effect in the long run.
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Jan 30, 2022 04:44
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it’s pretty messed up that sweden’s views on gambling is don’t you loving dare even look at a claw machine if you’re less than 18 years old but we’ll make it as easy as possible to drain your entire account the second you turn 18. also postkodlotteriet should not be legal, it’s such a horrible fear of missing out marketing scheme
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Jan 30, 2022 10:46
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Feliday Melody posted:posts like these cannot be left unchallenged. You mean posts like yours, right?
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Jan 30, 2022 11:10
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watho posted:it’s pretty messed up that sweden’s views on gambling is don’t you loving dare even look at a claw machine if you’re less than 18 years old but we’ll make it as easy as possible to drain your entire account the second you turn 18. Wait, claw machine as in like the ones with toys…?
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Jan 30, 2022 12:07
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TheFluff posted:I'm sure someone appreciates it. You're being extremely convincing by refusing to engage with anything anyone says. I actually don't believe this is something the military is expected to do. They aren't allowed to track or shoot down or do basically anything about drones in Sweden. They can report drone sightings over the skyddsobjekt they are responsible for but that's pretty much it. Well alongside giving support to the police if it's requested.
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Jan 30, 2022 12:21
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teen witch posted:Wait, claw machine as in like the ones with toys…? yeah. they’re considered gambling and illegal to operate if you’re under 18
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Jan 30, 2022 13:42
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watho posted:yeah. they’re considered gambling and illegal to operate if you’re under 18 You are loving lying E: this loving country sometimes teen witch fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 13:50
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It's an addictive game of chance that robs your money, in what world is it not gambling?
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Jan 30, 2022 14:06
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Nenonen posted:It's an addictive game of chance that robs your money, in what world is it not gambling? In what world are claw games addictive? It’s no worse than dreidel, except the latter was fun as a kid.
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Jan 30, 2022 14:17
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i mean you’re paying money for a chance to win a prize. that’s pretty different from a dreidel
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Jan 30, 2022 14:19
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So thats why iv'e only seen those machines on the Åland booze ferries. They must have better margins than regular slots. loving scams. 
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Jan 30, 2022 14:55
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teen witch posted:In what world are claw games addictive? It’s no worse than dreidel, except the latter was fun as a kid. *Not that it will avail you much, but it's there theoretically.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:46
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And all that booty, just waiting for its taker behind the plexiglass.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:50
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teen witch posted:In what world are claw games addictive? It’s no worse than dreidel, except the latter was fun as a kid. Claw games are super weird in Swedish law as it has to be attached to a tivoli, amusement park or seasonal market or similar place to be legal. The law is very specific. "För att få tillstånd krävs att spelet anordnas i samband med en offentlig nöjestillställning i form av tivoli eller liknande. Som spelplats gäller i första hand nöjesfält med den för tivoli typiska uppsättningen av nöjesattraktioner såsom karuseller, skjutbanor och liknande. Med ”liknande” avses marknader och festivaler som delvis har tivolikaraktär. Det är inte tillräckligt att det finns några enstaka marknadsnöjen. Tivolidelen måste i sig kunna liknas vid ett tivoli. " (own italics marking of deliciously awkward legalese) And you need to apply for a licence. And there are limits based on prisbasbelopp on both prices and tickets. Because god drat it this is Sweden, not the continent. https://www.spelinspektionen.se/globalassets/dokument/dokument-for-spelformer/spelautomater/information-om-varuspelsautomater.pdf It's gambling because the large amount of chance involved, and also probably because most machines are programmed to be too weak to lift things until a random number comes up in the machine, so that it's not 100% eating money. Capsule machines that give you a price every time you pay a coin do not count as gambling, and you'll find them all over the place outside supermarkets etc. E: as for the discussion about agencies loving up, giving awful advice that ends up biting you in the rear end etc. This pisses me off immensely as I've been on the receiving end of it several times in my life, at one point ending up not being able to eat daily because I was completely destitute due to failures of people employed at agencies. I think it was one of the things that made me want to work at an agency myself and do it better than the people I had met. What baffles me, especially now as an "insider", is that agency employees tend to forget that there's a little thing called Serviceskyldighet in the Förvaltningslagen that simply points out that "Varje myndighet ska inom sitt verksamhetsområde så långt det är möjligt och lämpligt hjälpa enskilda att ta till vara sina intressen i förvaltningsärenden." That's not just a friendly hint, it's a law. I'm still surprised how especially lawyers at agencies tends to want to push every tiny little intepretation in other laws to the most extreme, but they refuse to consider serviceskyldigheten as important. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 16:40
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lilljonas posted:but they refuse to consider serviceskyldigheten as important. When was the last time anyone or any agency was found in breach of serviceskyldigheten?
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Jan 30, 2022 17:29
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lilljonas posted:Claw games are super weird in Swedish law as it has to be attached to a tivoli, amusement park or seasonal market or similar place to be legal. The law is very specific. this may be my new favourite law in the world
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Jan 30, 2022 22:11
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