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Discendo Vox posted:The idea that "The state will censor media, that's what states do" is not true but for a ludicrous simplification of the concept. I definitely disagree with the premise that states don't censor media but that's a larger argument to hash out. Let's focus on the point How are u brought up in regards to American censorship, I personally am a lot more concerned with private citizens initiating the book burnings or censorship than a hamfisted government initiative one seems a lot more insidious
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Jan 29, 2022 07:18
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Reminder that this is the China thread, please make sure your discussion of censorship and related issues is centered around China. This does not mean you can't use other nations for comparison and contrast, but don't leave China out of the discussion or it's not really on-topic. edit: lmao just as I posted this, I see user "a big flaming stink" giving feedback for me to chill on asking threads to stay on topic. So I'll clarify. The last page or so is about half related to either US corporate structure or Palahnuik novels and film adaptations. It's not completely off-topic, but it's straying a bit from the core topic of this thread. A common complaint I've seen is that this thread often wanders away from China discussion, especially into talking about the United States. If you can read your post by itself and not know it was from the China thread, you might be straying a bit off course. Note that I'm not threatening probations or w/e for going off-topic. This is just a reminder. Please make sure your posting itt is relevant to China. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jan 29, 2022 |
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Jan 29, 2022 07:24
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A big flaming stink posted:Any institution with sufficient power will shape and influence the media into a form it finds advantageous This is the difference between the BBC running but downplaying “There is an investigation into a party at Downing Street” on the one hand, and the NRTA telling CCTV it’s not allowed to broadcast the results of investigative journalism that reveals the assets accumulated offshore by senior politicians in China on the other, breach of which is a criminal offence. A minimally censored press isn’t some kind of magic that compensates for all the other ills of liberal democratic societies but it is absolutely an important check on abuses of power. It is IMO outright wrong to punish someone for publicising something that is factually correct, and the harm prevention bar for doing so ought to be extremely high. I don’t believe this to be the case in 2022 China.
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Jan 29, 2022 12:05
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Discendo Vox posted:The idea that "The state will censor media, that's what states do" is not true but for a ludicrous simplification of the concept. Can you expand on this? Are there particular states that do not engage in censorship? Are those states the exceptions or the rule?
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Jan 29, 2022 15:50
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So how has the Ughyur's situation developed in the last year? Places like Cspam seem to still maintain nothing really noteworthy happened and it was all built on a foundation of Adrian Zenz and his rabid right wing Christian bigotry, and some of the reporting I've seen in mainstream western publications seem to suggest that at least they've taken their foot off the gas pedal and the government has pulled back from the worst of their policies. Is the Genocide label really sustainable anymore considering the reasonably solid evidence? Was it ever in the past? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 29, 2022 17:38
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yes and yes? why would it not be
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Jan 29, 2022 19:10
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khwarezm posted:Places like Cspam 
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Jan 29, 2022 19:16
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I'm getting a lot of amusement out of the idea of some obscure Chinese goonsay-looking bureaucrat going rogue and editing a movie to be more like the book. Also Palahniuk is in that Bret Easton Ellis category of authors: if you go home with someone and their bookshelf has a lot of his books, run. Another point I haven't seen brought up here that I've seen on Chinese social media is that Tencent was the agent of the censorship, and it's a reminder that that is how censorship often works in China. Content platforms proactively censor to try and stay on the good side of policies. That said, companies far less prominent than Tencent, even small companies, have government and Party relations that mean they aren't just flying blind and grasping when it comes to making these decisions. Terminal autist posted:I definitely disagree with the premise that states don't censor media but that's a larger argument to hash out. Let's focus on the point How are u brought up in regards to American censorship, I personally am a lot more concerned with private citizens initiating the book burnings or censorship than a hamfisted government initiative one seems a lot more insidious I'm surprised by this reaction. Governments almost always have far more power than private citizens. Well-intentioned but hamfisted government actions have been the cause of mass misery for time immemorial, not even counting ill-intentioned actions. When popular action runs amok, it's either because the government is weak or because the government consents (or even supports). I'm not sure what events you're referencing in the US, but I'd be more troubled by the implication that the US is either incapable or unwilling to confront popular antagonism like that. Another issue I have with censorship (not responding to you, Terminal autist, just moving along) is that it tends to address symptoms, not root causes. I thought this Twitter thread about online hate by a Danish political scientist offered good food for thought, even though it's not directly about the topic we're discussing: https://twitter.com/M_B_Petersen/status/1483457679800651787 (I don't know who he is and haven't read his research, but the overall argument makes sense to me.) I'll also go ahead and put two strawmen in battle against each other here, and say that freedom of speech and press of course is not limitless even in the most 'mah freedom' places. I don't think anyone but the most rabid libertarian would think that. There is the classic example of yelling fire in a theater, but also a whole range of sensible limits like slander, libel, illegal pornography, false advertising, hate speech, etc. Rather freedom of speech and press is principally about political speech and press coverage, which is a major means by which people contribute to shaping the society they live in. People should be able to voice political views and political dissatisfaction. Journalists should be able to critically examine politics, government, and society. And I think you can maximize those freedoms without falling into the trap of excessive tolerance of intolerance. WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:China's forcing it's economy to become even more competitive by creating a monopoly on green tech. Because of trumps rollbacks and no BBB, we will end up purchasing all of our green tech from China because we are too gridlocked to do anything about the climate disaster. I suspect this is going to be a much bigger topic in the coming years, possibly to the world's benefit. Your choice of words "even more competitive" is significant. Non-Chinese firms have suffered because they view Chinese industrial policies in this space as anti-competitive. However, I think governments and industry have caught on in the past year that this is no longer a matter of inter-firm competition. It's international competition. DFIs and other climate finance entities are already convening to develop investment diversification plans to reduce reliance on Chinese suppliers. While this may lead to more trade spats and could contribute to more dangerous types of conflict, I'm hopeful that it will turn this into the net-zero equivalent of the space race. While China has a huge upper hand on account of its scale, ownership of supply bottlenecks, manufacturing sophistication, etc., etc., and will no doubt always be a major (if not the major) green tech player, some of the next-gen technologies could see the market move elsewhere. For example, China absolutely dominates the solar PV industry, from solar-grade silica to wafers to modules. But their supply chain is based on first-gen silicon-based PV tech. Second-gen thin film PVs represent a potential step-change in performance/cost that no amount of efficiencies in first-gen can overcome, and they rely on different inputs (e.g., not silicon) that China does not necessarily have a monopoly on. India in particular seems to be betting on developing a vertically integrated supply chain for thin film PVs, and the US has started providing significant investment and expertise to make it happen. I'm skeptical, though, since I've been hearing about India's imminent rise in international trade for like 25 years.
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Jan 30, 2022 02:56
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Smeef posted:I'm surprised by this reaction. Governments almost always have far more power than private citizens. Well-intentioned but hamfisted government actions have been the cause of mass misery for time immemorial, not even counting ill-intentioned actions. When popular action runs amok, it's either because the government is weak or because the government consents (or even supports). I'm not sure what events you're referencing in the US, but I'd be more troubled by the implication that the US is either incapable or unwilling to confront popular antagonism like that. The thing that comes to my mind for recent events in America would be all the stuff around CRT. All those terrifying videos you see of chuds at schoolboard meetings following people out to their cars and telling them they know where they live. I should say as well if it needs to be stated by I think censorship is bad, and China editing the ending a movie really is some hilariously Orwellian poo poo. To bring it back to China I just think they have for lack of a better word a less sophisticated control system then we do here in the West, which is why you see more overt authoritarian actions from China where we sort of self select reality over here. Look at all the crazy anti-vax poo poo or CRT stuff people believe and none of this stuff is organic thought.
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Jan 30, 2022 03:17
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How is it that we are once again making opposite-of-reality equivocations between "the West" and China in this thread?Terminal autist posted:The thing that comes to my mind for recent events in America would be all the stuff around CRT. All those terrifying videos you see of chuds at schoolboard meetings following people out to their cars and telling them they know where they live. There is not a "sophisticated control system" for media or censorship in the United States.
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Jan 30, 2022 05:42
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In China a cop can kill anyone to anything at any time. In America that would never happen because we're free and stuff (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2022 06:28
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Discendo Vox posted:How is it that we are once again making opposite-of-reality equivocations between "the West" and China in this thread? 1. If you're going to make wide sweeping claims about "opposite-of-reality equivocations" please be more specific. Edit: What do you believe is "opposite of reality"? What is the correct version? 2. The FCC has a plenty complicated system of fines to enforce censorship, among other things. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 06:37
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It's a matter of soft influence vs. hard influence, and who controls global cultural trends. If you can exert enough soft influence and hold a monopoly on acceptable discourse, then you don't need to exert hard influence, and in fact your soft influence may be far better at defusing unrest & unacceptable thought than hard influence would; you don't need to ban dissent on Israel if even the most """""neutral"""" news organizations will fire you for attending a pro-Palestine rally in college. You don't need to ban unflattering depictions of the US military if Pentagon approval is all but necessary to depict them in any cost-effective way. You don't need to censor anti-police stories if you have an overwhelming multimillion dollar industry that adores Good Cop stories.quote:The modern, enlightened individual can watch a drama on Chernobyl, root for a techbro's intern, then watch a superhero movie where they depose Castro. We have also seen the result when this soft influence buckles under unrest and pressure; hard influence emerges. Assassinations, brutality, censorship. Fred Hampton folk die. Communist parties are banned. Racial protests are put down. Al Jazeera's get blocked. For all its bravado, free thought and expression has its boundaries, and will be severely punished for crossing them. The USSR didn't have this cultural dominance, and so exerted hard influence upon its states (and we saw that crumbling before the power of the global culture by the end). China, which has defined much of its evolution by the USSR's failures, has only further fortified its hard influence, while also financially incentivizing foreign studios to provide censored editions of globally funded & influenced art. All this is to say, I'm not particularly surprised when China censors art, it's a tool for cultural control they possess, and states will always look for methods to control its citizens' acceptable views. Perhaps one day China will have amassed enough global cultural power that these hard measures become obsolete, and they adopt a more western approach. I imagine they'd approach it with caution, keeping in mind how the soviet bloc was devoured. E: WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:In China a cop can kill anyone to anything at any time. In America that would never happen because we're free and stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 06:47
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To me it’s simply another example of superior Chinese efficiency. In America, movies are a complex relationship between Hollywood and various branches of the military and intelligence services to ensure access to the latest hardware and accurately represent the interests of state stakeholders. China just waits for American movies to come out, makes a few edits, and accomplishes the same goals. That’s just good business. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2022 07:22
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Is there a shortage of critical or unflattering depictions of the US military in cinema, or does it just become impossible without free loaners from the pentagon? All of the soft power influences listed are also exercised in China. Apparently they wouldn't need to censor bad cop stories if they had a multimillion dollar media industry that adores Good Cop stories (which they do). Soooo.....
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Jan 30, 2022 08:15
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Is it not even possible to laugh at clunky censorship in China without invoking "well actually, in America a complex relationship between government, business, and media means..." It's crude, "Poochy died on the way to his home planet"-level censorship that people in China are laughing at. It's spectacularly unsubtle, that's why it attracted comment, so I'm bemused as to why subtle forms of message manipulation elsewhere (oh, who am I kidding, just in the US) needs to be brought up.
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Jan 30, 2022 08:49
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It may not be to your taste, but you can’t deny that China’s succeeded in sparking a robust debate about the role of the state in the production of art, and for far cheaper than western propaganda methods. As the old joke goes, “the Russians used a pencil.”
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Jan 30, 2022 08:56
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Daduzi posted:Is it not even possible to laugh at clunky censorship in China without invoking "well actually, in America a complex relationship between government, business, and media means..." I dont think anyone denies that it's funny and not very convincing, FWIW. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 09:33
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Centrist Committee posted:It may not be to your taste, but you can’t deny that China’s succeeded in sparking a robust debate about the role of the state in the production of art, and for far cheaper than western propaganda methods. As the old joke goes, “the Russians used a pencil.” The trouble is that that debate has already existed in Western media for centuries. The role of the state in general and the military in particular is pretty well-trod in terms of people's understanding about how media gets created. Also, not sure if you know this or are just referencing the idea, but the Fisher space pen was developed privately and used by both U.S. and U.S.S.R. space agencies, so the old joke falls pretty flat.
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Jan 30, 2022 15:39
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Neurolimal posted:It's a matter of soft influence vs. hard influence, and who controls global cultural trends. If you can exert enough soft influence and hold a monopoly on acceptable discourse, then you don't need to exert hard influence, and in fact your soft influence may be far better at defusing unrest & unacceptable thought than hard influence would; you don't need to ban dissent on Israel if even the most """""neutral"""" news organizations will fire you for attending a pro-Palestine rally in college. You don't need to ban unflattering depictions of the US military if Pentagon approval is all but necessary to depict them in any cost-effective way. You don't need to censor anti-police stories if you have an overwhelming multimillion dollar industry that adores Good Cop stories. Except that isn't remotely true. Numerous major newspapers in the United States are pro-Palestinian or at the very least not censoring it. Emily Wilder, if that is what you are referring to was fired for social media policy violation despite it happening prior to employment. AP was raked over the coals for the move and is an isolated incident. This is why it made headlines. AOC and 'The Squad' are on record as anti-Israeli yet receive continuous positive press coverage from liberal media outlets. Plenty of movies has depicted the military in a negative light without Pentagon support. Platoon is still revered as the quintessential Vietnam war moving was made entirely without Pentagon support. Crimson Tide, GI Jane, Forest Gump and Thin Red Line were similarly made without said approval. More recently Green Zone was made without Pentagon support. Even when you receive Pentagon support, you aren't required to glorify the US military. Jarhead, Generation Kill, Hurt Locker, (to some degree) American Sniper were all critical either to the cause that the US military was engaged in, or otherwise depicted war and the military profession in a negative or neutral light (issues like PTSD, lack of a clear moral distinction of whom we are fighting against etc). Does it help to have Pentagon support? Sure does. But especially these days, you can just CGI anything in you want if you can't get that sleek F18 and a pro pilot from the military. Anti cop stories are made all the time and are even more prevalent than anti-war/anti-Pentagon movies and have acclaimed directors and stars. Training Day, Copland, The Departed, and Triple 9 all deal with rampant police corruption. Your assertion that it is a "monopoly" is clearly false here. Anti-establishment movies are made with regularity and receive solid support from the movie-making class. Just because 'insert pet clause' isn't winning on the public perception front doesn't mean that it was censored. Just becuase the Pentagon has a film relations office doesn't mean it is 'the same' as Chinese censorship and that 'free speech' is an illusion. This is just the same loving false equivalence game that was played in the "everything is authoritarian" derail that happened 2 weeks ago. Scale and scope matter. edit: I forgot to add that if anything, it is Chinese censorship via soft influence that is now creeping into Hollywood. The gigamarket China means that big movies increasingly have to make sure they stay onside of China to ensure that their film doesn't get censored and capture that sweet sweet 1.4 billion market. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/aug/05/china-hollywood-films-damaging-impact-report MikeC fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 17:15
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MikeC posted:edit: I forgot to add that if anything, it is Chinese censorship via soft influence that is now creeping into Hollywood. The gigamarket China means that big movies increasingly have to make sure they stay onside of China to ensure that their film doesn't get censored and capture that sweet sweet 1.4 billion market. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/aug/05/china-hollywood-films-damaging-impact-report This is one of the most hilarious phenomenon to happen to western media in recent memory. The hilarity of a for-profit movie industry is that it must chase profitable markets even if those markets are controlled by a communist party. The next step would be for the CCP started forcing all foreign movies distributed within the PRC to have "advisors" on set during filiming. Edit: and the doubly hilarious part is that all this media would also be distributed domestically here, in the US, meaning the movie industry would effectively become a mouthpiece for the CCP. Funny to think about.
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Jan 30, 2022 17:29
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Fell Fire posted:The trouble is that that debate has already existed in Western media for centuries. The role of the state in general and the military in particular is pretty well-trod in terms of people's understanding about how media gets created. Especially given that graphite dust would be a fire hazard.
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Jan 30, 2022 17:30
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Fell Fire posted:The trouble is that that debate has already existed in Western media for centuries. The role of the state in general and the military in particular is pretty well-trod in terms of people's understanding about how media gets created. And yet the renaissance in discourse that China’s contribution has inspired in this very thread is undeniable.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:10
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Cpt_Obvious posted:China Jails Almost 50 Steel Executives for Faking Emissions Data I wonder what their actual crimes were...
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Jan 30, 2022 18:20
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I wonder what their actual crimes were... An extensive collection of winnie the Pooh t-shirts.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:25
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I wonder what their actual crimes were... Oh I doubt there's anything more sinister there than them breaking the law for a long period where government officials looked the other way because construction gets you to your gpd target, then getting instantly rounded up the moment the officials incentive priorities flipped from 'keep GDP high' to 'make emissions lower'. e: three different companies all doing the same thing implies an industry wide open secret, much like how the moment someone noticed one car company was faking emissions data it turned out that half of them were.
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Jan 30, 2022 18:34
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Alchenar posted:Oh I doubt there's anything more sinister there than them breaking the law for a long period where government officials looked the other way because construction gets you to your gpd target, then getting instantly rounded up the moment the officials incentive priorities flipped from 'keep GDP high' to 'make emissions lower'. Is there any way we could know this or should we just take your word that this happened ?
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Jan 30, 2022 18:59
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Living by the Code: In China, Covid-Era Controls May Outlast the Virus The country has instituted a wide range of high-tech controls on society as part of a mostly successful effort to stop the virus. The consequences may endure. quote:The police had warned Xie Yang, a human rights lawyer, not to go to Shanghai to visit the mother of a dissident. He went to the airport anyway. To the surprise of absolutely nobody, the CCP has been taking full advantage of the pandemic by using it as a means to tighten their control over people even more — especially people they perceive as potential threats.
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Jan 30, 2022 19:03
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mawarannahr posted:Is there any way we could know this or should we just take your word that this happened ? Well if there were a free independent media in China we might have a hope, but in the absense of that you just have to go on what seems reasonable, which is; a) 50 people from three different steel manufacturers all didn't spontaneously decide to fake emission data at the same moment, b) if you are in the business then you know what your own emissions are which means you probably know if someone else's are bullshit, which means a decision to cheat as well means you think that cheating is a better strategy than reporting them to the authorities (if you thought the law was going to be enforced, you would just point out 'hey these guys are obviously lying' and get the competition taken out), and c) you don't just catch 50 people in three different competing companies all at the same time if you are investigating from scratch. That's the kind of round up that happens when you know all along what's been going on and your incentives finally change to pull the file out from under your desk. e: I also assume you aren't asking me how we don't know it's a secret paedofile ring and the charges are a cover or something. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 19:38
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It's a really basic trolling tactic that gives the abuser control of the thread. A non-sequitur comparison to something out of scope, coupled with misrepresentations (usually obvious ones) that shift blame and the scope of discussion to the other entity (usually the US). Because other people don't want to let the misrepresentation stand, they wind up shifting to address the misrepresentation. In this way, the abuser's lies control the scope of the thread.
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Jan 30, 2022 19:39
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Discendo Vox posted:In this way, the abuser's lies control the scope of the thread. Please go outside. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2022 19:47
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a really basic trolling tactic that gives the abuser control of the thread. A non-sequitur comparison to something out of scope, coupled with misrepresentations (usually obvious ones) that shift blame and the scope of discussion to the other entity (usually the US). Because other people don't want to let the misrepresentation stand, they wind up shifting to address the misrepresentation. In this way, the abuser's lies control the scope of the thread. This is being discussed in the feedback thread and your post here might be better suited there. If you believe a specific poster is doing what you describe itt, please report it. As mentioned in the feedback thread the lower volume of reports and larger, more active modding staff means that reports are being reviewed closely and by multiple mods.
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Jan 30, 2022 20:49
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https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1485681162446118915 It's interesting how the UN works on these things. I guess all the countries already have their stances on who they support, so when these things come up, they use them as an opportunity to do a little speech reaffirming support and speak out against things that they might have feelings about like sanctioning a government for massacring its citizens. https://unwatch.org/syria-praised-on-human-rights-at-un-review/
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Jan 30, 2022 20:55
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a really basic trolling tactic that gives the abuser control of the thread. A non-sequitur comparison to something out of scope, coupled with misrepresentations (usually obvious ones) that shift blame and the scope of discussion to the other entity (usually the US). Because other people don't want to let the misrepresentation stand, they wind up shifting to address the misrepresentation. In this way, the abuser's lies control the scope of the thread. What and who are you talking about? Speak clearly for goodness sake.
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Jan 30, 2022 21:02
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Alchenar posted:Well if there were a free independent media in China we might have a hope, but in the absense of that you just have to go on what seems reasonable, which is; I don’t see how you can arrive at these conclusions without specific examples to point to. I didn’t ask about a pedophile ring and I think it’s a weird thing to bring up.
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Jan 30, 2022 21:05
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Alchenar posted:Well if there were a free independent media in China we might have a hope, but in the absense of that you just have to go on what seems reasonable, which is; Again I think you could view this through the lens of the superior efficiency of the Chinese system. I know this thread is reluctant to invite comparisons to the United States but in this case there is historical precedent: RICO prosecutions. Granted, RICO statutes are a specific tool designed for a specific problem, but I don’t think you can categorically dismiss the possibility that China, by virtue of its more modern regulatory apparatus, is able to identify and prosecute corruption more efficiently than the older, more fragmented system of US jurisprudence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2022 21:37
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Living by the Code: In China, Covid-Era Controls May Outlast the Virus I can imagine a lot of old East Germans looking on longingly at this "accomplishment." Centrist Committee posted:Again I think you could view this through the lens of the superior efficiency of the Chinese system. I know this thread is reluctant to invite comparisons to the United States but in this case there is historical precedent: RICO prosecutions. Granted, RICO statutes are a specific tool designed for a specific problem, but I don’t think you can categorically dismiss the possibility that China, by virtue of its more modern regulatory apparatus, is able to identify and prosecute corruption more efficiently than the older, more fragmented system of US jurisprudence. The American system, for all it's many flaws, is capable of self repair. The Chinese system is self-described as flawless, and any suggestion otherwise will probably get you a nice visit from state security, as the dissident quoted above knows all too well I'm sure. And last I checked no one in the US has been arrested for not eating pork. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 30, 2022 21:51
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China was proven right on the Syrian intervention. It failed to accomplish any of its political or military goals , and at several points the jihadi's trained by the CIA were fighting the jihadi's armed by the Pentagon. It wasn't a hindsight issue either, a popular slogan of the uprising was "Christians to Beuruit , Alawites to the graveyard" , and everyone involved would have known what funding those groups would lead to.
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Jan 30, 2022 22:05
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Ghetto Prince posted:China was proven right on the Syrian intervention. It failed to accomplish any of its political or military goals , and at several points the jihadi's trained by the CIA were fighting the jihadi's armed by the Pentagon. Eh, the problem is then you get Russia on the side of the Syrian government encouraging and often enabling crimes against humanity like chemical weapons used against civilians. CIA was in no way right in this, but with the Syrian Civil War, very certain the Syrian government are also not 'The Good Guys"
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Jan 30, 2022 22:54
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I can imagine a lot of old East Germans looking on longingly at this "accomplishment." Ah, but what about being forced to eat pork after being arrested, in prison? Bad example.
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Jan 31, 2022 01:16
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