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Remember when we all figured out that building wide in vortex was just a source of frustration. If you want your world conquest you might have to wait until immortal empires comes out next year.
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Jan 31, 2022 05:20
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 19:24 |
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So, Enticity's game decided to default into loading up Kislev in one of his streams, not his fault, but it does allow a tentative look at the pricing of their units (except the elemental bear, would have to scroll for that and this was unintended) as well as how one of the best MP guys have been building them in the It does actually look a lot like how I was imagining you'd build good Kislev lists earlier on, except the Snow Leopards (they're surprisingly cheap and IIRC they are fast and anti-large so that's obviously going to be pretty useful, probably more so in domination than the bear cav, which really seem to have fit a role of staying more with an army in normal land battles to me), alot of cavalry essentially, Kossars and no Streltsy (maybe because of whoever this list is facing not having much in the way of armor). Katarin looks pretty expensive (though you'll be able to shave off some 500+ points off that), Enticity at least is opting for Kostaltyn here with his starting infantry force. 
Randarkman fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 05:42
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Randarkman posted:So, Enticity's game decided to default into loading up Kislev in one of his streams, not his fault, but it does allow a tentative look at the pricing of their units (except the elemental bear, would have to scroll for that and this was unintended) as well as how one of the best MP guys have been building them in the open access environment so far. It's almost a certainty that Kostaltyn will be better, although I suspect that Katarin won't be unplayably bad - just suboptimal. Kostaltyn looks to be extremely survivable and relatively cheap, plus IIRC he has some AOE buffs. Katarin, on the other hand, doesn't really bring much to the table that you couldn't get from a basic caster. It probably isn't quite as blantantly one-sided as Cathay's dragons where one has healing and a strong dragon damage spell while the other has no healing and a weak dragon damage spell, with similar same stats and costs outside of that. I agree on the Leopards being a small surprise, I would have expected them to be Great Eagle levels of meme choice. Love to see the one-of Ice Guard, sad not to see Little Grom. Kislev is also basically the first faction we've seen where taking the caster as reinforcement is a real choice, all the others are tilted pretty heavily towards taking a caster leader (and still really need the spells if they don't). Interesting that Boris, assuming he exists, does not appear to be playable in MP.
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Jan 31, 2022 06:39
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orangelex44 posted:
At a guess, assuming the leak is real, you need to complete the campaign as Kislev to unlock him for MP. Who knows if any of the content creators have actually done that yet. Or, if CA was feeling miserly, you need to beat that mini campaign instead - which may not be playable in their build.
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Jan 31, 2022 07:13
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Lord Koth posted:At a guess, assuming the leak is real, you need to complete the campaign as Kislev to unlock him for MP. Who knows if any of the content creators have actually done that yet. Or, if CA was feeling miserly, you need to beat that mini campaign instead - which may not be playable in their build. Yeah it's very likely that he's tied to completion of the mini-campaign, and/or also they turned him off in the build that content creators have.
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Jan 31, 2022 08:16
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I'm not sure if it's actually hard-coded or maybe they're just not allowed to show it but I thought streamers could only go to turn 75 (or 50 previously)
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Jan 31, 2022 08:43
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They can only show up to a certain turn, but when asked about it Legend of Sotek said they have the whole game
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Jan 31, 2022 08:45
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orangelex44 posted:It's almost a certainty that Kostaltyn will be better, although I suspect that Katarin won't be unplayably bad - just suboptimal. Kostaltyn looks to be extremely survivable and relatively cheap, plus IIRC he has some AOE buffs. Katarin, on the other hand, doesn't really bring much to the table that you couldn't get from a basic caster. It probably isn't quite as blantantly one-sided as Cathay's dragons where one has healing and a strong dragon damage spell while the other has no healing and a weak dragon damage spell, with similar same stats and costs outside of that. I agree on the Leopards being a small surprise, I would have expected them to be Great Eagle levels of meme choice. Love to see the one-of Ice Guard, sad not to see Little Grom. Kislev is also basically the first faction we've seen where taking the caster as reinforcement is a real choice, all the others are tilted pretty heavily towards taking a caster leader (and still really need the spells if they don't). So who's the good dragon kid? Haven't really followed the info.
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Jan 31, 2022 09:31
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genericnick posted:So who's the good dragon kid? Haven't really followed the info. The daughter as she gets healing and a spammable non-moving vortex
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Jan 31, 2022 09:36
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Ravenfood posted:Based on what? Doesn't seem like this in the streams I watched. The evidence? I've watched all the releases so far and it seems like they stripped a lot of fun out of the game. Turin always makes things seem exciting and good because that's Turin. Damaging magic is completely nerfed in favor of making debuffs appear stronger. Economies are nerfed across the board, particularly for demon armies. Even with Cathay with their and their trade it's SO slow to build up. The exception here is Khorne because he doesn't need a built-up economy to field multiple armies due to the faction/leader bonuses. Also Skarbrand is an army unto himself. Doomstacking is impossible both because it's so incredibly expensive with no economic support and because many of the units you would doomstack with are actually extremely weak to things like basic non-AP missiles or anti-large. This includes that harmony/warcompass "doomstack" all the youtubers are putting out and are claiming is amazing but isn't. It's got a lot of winds and damaging spells but it's extremely weak to missiles or SEMs. Also slow and magic has limited range and can be dodged easily. Blobbing the AI on your own SEMs works great when they have nothing but melee troops but imagine trying it against marauder horsemen or other ranged units. Nurgle in multiplayer is screwed. They lack anti-large. Their SEMs are gigantic, slow targets that are easily brought down by missiles because of their lack of armor. Their mass saves them from being surrounded but a good player will move anti-large troops past the SEM to chip damage away and slow them down further, allowing for missiles to do even more damage. Ditto for anti-large SEMs used to attack them. A huge HP pool, even with healing magic, ain't that great when ever single bit of damage from thousands of missiles is hitting. They are extremely slow in general excepting a few units, which also have a lot of weaknesses to other released armies. Autoresolving is almost entirely impossible without taking huge amounts of damage and destroying entire armies even going against crap. Fighting every single battle against low-level, small armies even while you have multiple, stronger armies is tedious as hell. Legend even used the word "tedious" multiple times. That is coming from a guy who will fight a two hour battle just to give himself an inch of advantage over the AI or will fight and lose just to damage the AI army a tiny bit. Nurgle can regain their losses faster because they can recruit instantly (from a limited, slowly building pool) even though the troops come in damaged and they have plagues to improve replenishment. Army replenishment across the board has been nerfed. Playing Tzeentch (no recovery except one LL skill that add 6%, forced to fight every battle) and Nurgle (extremely slow, forced to fight every battle) on top of nerfed economies is a slog. Nurgle does gets better recovery from the aforementioned plagues so that helps. Replenishment for Daemons so far seems to be worse than Bretonnia. The human factions seem on par with it, which is still bad. In addition to the AI cheats it usually gets, the goal seems to have been nerf the player or limit what they can do in the extreme in order to force "balanced" armies instead of mostly missiles or prevent doomstacking, but for most factions this ends up being crapstacking like with blue horrors or nurglings. Now, part of not being able to just do missile spam is because of the AI improvements, which is good, but limiting player choice is bad. The human factions have better replenishment but still not great. Lowered replenishment does mean forcing a player choice- retreat, recover or risk an attack with a weakened army, but without much improvement to how supply lines work, and with economies being weaker to make it harder to field stronger or multiple armies, even crapstacks, it just ends up slowing things way down. And that seems to be the goal. Make everything slower, monotonous, more tedious. Sieges... Oh god sieges. They look new and shiny right now but after so many of them they are going to end up even more of an irritating pain in the rear end than TWWII sieges if autoresolving isn't fixed. Imagine fighting a ton of those as the defender, even with good towers, where you have to defend potentially five points of entry in a spiral formation with no walls or gates, sitting on capture points. Over and over again to infinity. Sieges weren't fun except a few really hard ones in the beginnings of campaigns but at least you could cheese them or autoresolve past them before. Now... Anyway, new cheeses will be developed but having to switch so much between campaign and battle map to fight tiny, no-threat armies because they might take a huge chunk out of your own by itself already means more waiting doing nothing (unless they add minigames or something). This is just the pre-release, though. It can always change. Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 13:20
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We haven't seen any of the old factions in 3 yet, so how do you know economies have been nerfed?
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Jan 31, 2022 13:35
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“The game has been rebalanced to discourage doom stacks, encourage army variety and discourage auto resolve,” sounds like a massive improvement to me. Some of the most fun I’ve had in 2 was making the most out of sub optimal situations.
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Jan 31, 2022 13:41
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doingitwrong posted:“The game has been rebalanced to discourage doom stacks, encourage army variety and discourage auto resolve,” sounds like a massive improvement to me.
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Jan 31, 2022 13:48
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It reads like you like to auto resolve your doom stacks and paint maps instead of play the game
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Jan 31, 2022 13:51
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doingitwrong posted:“The game has been rebalanced to discourage doom stacks, encourage army variety and discourage auto resolve,” sounds like a massive improvement to me.
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Jan 31, 2022 13:55
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Chemtrailologist posted:We haven't seen any of the old factions in 3 yet, so how do you know economies have been nerfed? I'm basing this on the information we have. Relative to non-broken economies (so no-high elves), but also not something so extreme as dark elves, the strongest economy so far is not even as strong as Lizardmen. Third World Reagan posted:It reads like you like to auto resolve your doom stacks and paint maps instead of play the game I don't like having to fight every single battle, including tiny armies over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. So, yea, that gets tedious. If that's the game you want it seems like it's the game they're building.
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Jan 31, 2022 13:57
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You don't have to doomstack. It's optimal but no one was forcing you. I don't like being limited in that regard. If I wanted to paint the map I could just used cheats to make my skeleton spam invincible. Or just not load the game at all and paint an MSpaint version of the map my chosen color. For some people, part of the fun of games is figuring out how to break the game. Sometimes within reasonable limits so it's not just using glitching like Spiffing Brit. For others it's self-imposed limitations. Don't limit fun or hate on ways people have fun, imo
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Jan 31, 2022 14:01
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Cranappleberry posted:I'm basing this on the information we have. Relative to non-broken economies (so no-high elves), but also not something so extreme as dark elves, the strongest economy so far is not even as strong as Lizardmen. It doesn't seem like the demon factions really have an emphasis on their economy and we really haven't seen any Ogres or Kislev. I think Legend said that the Cathay economy has some big exploits.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:04
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Cranappleberry posted:The evidence? I've watched all the releases so far and it seems like they stripped a lot of fun out of the game. Turin always makes things seem exciting and good because that's Turin. Having seen a single Infernal Gate destroy multiple units with a single opportunistic cast yesterday I can't agree about damaging magic other than that a couple of outliers like Wind Blast have been nerfed. The Khorne economy is great, the Nurgle one looks strong and snowbally, and Cathay looks decent even without the trade caravans. I haven't got a mental handle on the Tzeentchean economy yet, but the only one that looks actively bad is Build-a-Bear's. quote:Doomstacking is impossible Good My biggest cause of concern is Kislev; the factions we've seen so far all without exception are designed for your LL to be able to carry your early armies and occasionally solo entire opposing armies. (Ku'gath has the hardest time doing this because he's the only slow one). But Katarin and Kostalyn are mortals. Powerful ones but the rest of the LLs are dragons, greater demons, and a demon prince. They can't and shouldn't be able to.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:08
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I've seen a clip of Kairos straight up deleting a healthy unit of Jade Warrior Crossbowmen through a single pendulum cast. So direct damage magic can't be that weak.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:12
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Chemtrailologist posted:It doesn't seem like the demon factions really have an emphasis on their economy and we really haven't seen any Ogres or Kislev. I think Legend said that the Cathay economy has some big exploits. agreed. Also Tzeentch. He's tight-lipped because he doesn't want CA to change it before he gets a crack at it. And I'm also not saying "this game is no fun I'm not gonna buy it rah rah." I am going to have fun figuring out new ways to break the AI or exploit the game otherwise, if that's what I feel like doing. I'd just prefer it if I didn't have to sit there through tons of load screens because I'm forced to fight tiny stack of spray-farting demons that want to ransack my level 5 settlement I spent 150 turns building up. Why is doomstacking being impossible good? Also, Direct Damage spells cost a lot more winds. That's part of the nerf.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:12
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I used to watch a lot of multiplayer streams but the domination streams released last week are doing nothing for me at all, it's boring to watch people ping between flag capture points. It also feels very "gamey" compared to the standard pitched battles because there's lots more arbitrary numbers like capture points and supply points and what have you. It might be more fun to play, and that is what people are saying, but I don't see it as being more fun to watch. At least from what's been released so far.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:15
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Load screen times shouldn't be too long if you have a SSD. If you still find it long, yah that kinda sucks. But doom stacking viable promotes it instead of any sort of gameplay. It is hard to have both doom stacking as an option as well as mixed units closer to how a MP army would look. A lot of the units you get just go away from being useful or viable currently in game 2. I have to use mods to even make some units viable. A restricted economy helps, but the main problem was the strength of lords and supply lines. They seem to be promoting more options to use multiple lords, and that is a good thing unless you want every fight to be the same or auto resolved.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:17
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Everyone chill out, the previous games launched with problems and this one probably will too, Cranappleberry isn't an idiot for speculating about it. I'm of two minds about the auto-resolve thing. One of the best TW campaigns I ever had was as the Seleucids in Rome Remastered, because the autoresolve in that game doesn't appreciate what you can accomplish with phalanxes, so I had to manually fight like 95% of my battles. Especially vs the Romans; praetorians in AR could get 500 kills, while in manual I could carefully box them in and destroy them. Anyway, while it was fun, from looking at LPs it seems like people are taking unacceptable losses in battles that should be stomps, and manually fighting an unlosable siege attack sounds a bit dull, especially if you're Nurgle and your troops take ten minutes to get to the enemy.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:21
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Rabelais D posted:I used to watch a lot of multiplayer streams but the domination streams released last week are doing nothing for me at all, it's boring to watch people ping between flag capture points. It also feels very "gamey" compared to the standard pitched battles because there's lots more arbitrary numbers like capture points and supply points and what have you. Absolutely. I haven't played the domination battles so it might be more fun, although this is likely part novelty. Third World Reagan posted:Load screen times shouldn't be too long if you have a SSD. If you still find it long, yah that kinda sucks. I have an SSD but it's still moments of my life being drawn away as I approach the inexorable. I've made this argument before but you can play Legendary/VH with a balanced army and still win. The early game is MUCH harder and melee being weak vs AI means your lines will collapse much more easily but it's doable and winnable. It's just a slog vs heavy ranged/Artillery. I understand your point that pushing the extremes shifts the window but forcing players into balanced armies forces everyone into that slog, especially if they can't autoresolve easily when they vastly outnumber, outgun and outstrength the AI.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:23
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Cranappleberry posted:I'm basing this on the information we have. Relative to non-broken economies (so no-high elves), but also not something so extreme as dark elves, the strongest economy so far is not even as strong as Lizardmen. The strongest economy so far is either Khorne or Nurgle. Khorne is a horde economy where you get your income off sacking and looting, you get to raise low upkeep temporary stacks, and you settle for free while your fighty armies provide very powerful economic bonuses. It's powerful despite running negative income every turn. Nurgle is a Skaven-style economy where every single building provides income and where you never have to pay for more than the first level of a building so your infrastructure costs are very low. But where you make bank is the second source of Nurgle income; there's at least one tech that gives you gold every time you infect someone and at least one infection bonus that gives you gold for infecting
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Jan 31, 2022 14:23
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neonchameleon posted:The strongest economy so far is either Khorne or Nurgle. Khorne's strength isn't their constructed economy, but their faction/LL bonuses. Nurgle can hardly support 3 crapstacks with several provinces without running a deficit on Legendary. Besides replenishment and maybe growth early on, plague spread is too weak, imo (and I don't mean in the sense of trying to game the system, either).
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Jan 31, 2022 14:26
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If it’s not fun at the highest difficulty tier, choose a lower difficulty which is less constricting.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:34
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Cranappleberry posted:Khorne's strength isn't their constructed economy, but their faction/LL bonuses. The faction needs to be taken as a whole. The constructed economy is part of the overall economy and Bloodletting and the bonus armies are part of the whole thing. quote:Nurgle can hardly support 3 crapstacks with several provinces without running a deficit on Legendary. 3 crapstacks is still three stacks. And the thing is plague snowballs. Early plagues that last three turns and have a low cross-infection rate and no secondary effects are weak. There are techs that include longer lasting plagues and more infectious plauges even fairly early in the tech tree.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:38
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Didn't they drop the supply lines upkeep to like two percent or something?
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Jan 31, 2022 14:49
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Auto-resolve is tilted heavily only on legendary and very hard according to legend. That's not great but I also don't care
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Jan 31, 2022 14:50
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DaysBefore posted:Didn't they drop the supply lines upkeep to like two percent or something? Apparently it's 2% on normal, scaling up to 4% on legendary. For reference, it was 15% on legendary in 2. Three crapstacks is better than you could afford on most factions before, like, turn 40 on VH or legendary in 2, so it should be fine
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Jan 31, 2022 14:59
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DaysBefore posted:Didn't they drop the supply lines upkeep to like two percent or something? Also economic limiters that make it so I can't just field my best units all the time sounds great. Give me a reason to care about cost effectiveness! Also give me a reason to care about replenishment instead of just getting a full army back after hitting the "eat captives" button. (Also limit ammo replenishment).
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Jan 31, 2022 15:03
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Daemons of Chaos are going to be weak economically I think. They will need to use upkeep reduction. The other daemonic factions may need to lean more on their cultbuilding for income. Cathay seems to have a very strong economy with the caravan system.
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Jan 31, 2022 15:25
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Cranappleberry posted:Also, Direct Damage spells cost a lot more winds. That's part of the nerf. But you also get more winds, so it's not necessarily an issue? Also, please look at this 3 minute vid please: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcrZCx5VIM One big problem for me is that it's hard to evaluate WH3 when we only have streams of people playing on legend. I'm not a legend player, I top out at hard/hard. But I can also enjoy a normal difficulty campaign if I have a gimmick in mind. Some of the issues you're talking about become non-issues on lower difficulties. And I don't play MP. So perhaps the game really will feel unfun at my chosen difficulties, or it will be fine. Not that I believe that WH3 will launch without problems. But CA have been good enough with balance changes, so we'll see in what state WH3 will end up in.
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Jan 31, 2022 15:28
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:If battle difficulties affected how many actions-per-minute the AI could make so maybe fighting armies with a bunch of fliers and/or cav and/or SEMs wasnt actively painful then my opinion might change. This is an excellent, excellent idea and I love it. Just give the AI a "cooldown" on commanding units that gets shorter and shorter on higher difficulties.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLZMDjC66k A replay of a multiplayer land battle (that is not domination) Khorne vs Daemons of Chaos fielding only Slaanesh units. Not the Slaanesh factions and missing some of the mortal units and stuff like the god-specific furies, but I gotta say Slaanesh also looks pretty drat fun. They're really fast (their infantry unit, Daemonetttes have 54 speed and they've got monstrous cavalry and chariot with ~100 speed) and essentially play by the philosophy of winning big or losing big, no middle ground of grinding out a win or loss.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:43
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Rabelais D posted:I used to watch a lot of multiplayer streams but the domination streams released last week are doing nothing for me at all, it's boring to watch people ping between flag capture points. It also feels very "gamey" compared to the standard pitched battles because there's lots more arbitrary numbers like capture points and supply points and what have you. As someone who also watches a lot of multiplayer streams, I honestly feel something close to the opposite, I think? I agree with you that it's definitely much more "gamey" because there's victory points and stuff in play, but the fact that you have to think about splitting your attention and forces between multiple points and how holding specific pieces of ground matters a lot flips the script in a lot of ways that are interesting and has huge ramifications for how a lot of factions and units are going to play the game, especially when the old races make it in. As one example, elite infantry is now actually desirable and useful, instead of a hilarious cost sink that will simply be kited to death and die uselessly 100% of the time unless you're bringing it against a faction that has literally zero missile play.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:48
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Point capture battles always are better than a straight up maul balance wise since it stops you from playing the huns non stop.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:52
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Also don't forget that the build the content creators are playing is likely several weeks or possibly even a few months old, and CA deliberately could have tweaked auto resolve in order to force them to play battles and get footage of those battles as a big selling point of the game. Alternatively, they overtuned it in this build accidentally, have seen how harsh it is, and can tone it down prior to release. I have been watching MonstersAbound and his Nurgle campaign, and he mentions that AR is suuuuper harsh and he feels forced to fight battles manually, even when the odds are heavily in his favor. I can't imagine CA is ignoring that outright. Economically, on the other hand, I'd argue that factions are going to have wildly different economics. This is definitely subjective, of course, but I kind of enjoy the idea that Khorne or Nurgle don't necessarily poo poo money. I do hope their economies make sense in the long run, but we have no way of knowing that right now. Hopefully CA doesn't gently caress that part up.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:53
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