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Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


corn haver join me in a Let's Read of this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25955107-the-heart-of-the-buddha-s-teaching

(You know ima post about it ITT, glad I didn't break it before :ohdear: )

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corn haver
Mar 28, 2020

ram dass in hell posted:

the burning house is a bit from the lotus sutra and it's a good bit and a good sutra op
Yeah I know, for some reason I did a preachy derail.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



ram dass in hell posted:

the burning house is a bit from the lotus sutra and it's a good bit and a good sutra op
Some would say the best and worthy of veneration in its own right... but that's just Nichiren's opinion. (It is legitimately great though)

corn haver
Mar 28, 2020

Bilirubin posted:

corn haver join me in a Let's Read of this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25955107-the-heart-of-the-buddha-s-teaching

(You know ima post about it ITT, glad I didn't break it before :ohdear: )
Thanks, I'll pick up a copy.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


corn haver posted:

Thanks, I'll pick up a copy.

cool not a huge rush I'm still reading through the The Teaching of Buddha and want to finish it first https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23419773-the-teaching-of-buddha

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

corn haver posted:

I'm considering the possibility of somehow convincing/tricking reddit atheists, jordan peterson freaks, and similar types into becoming stream-entrants, giving them the dustless, stainless Dharma eye, knowing that all conditioned things are subject to disintegration. Not just understanding that with their cognition, but connecting with their emotional heart, their citta. Their stupid emotional heart that has to see things directly rise and fall and then just knows. Those guys loving suck and remind me of myself in the early 2000s reading the internet as a kid/young teen in terms of emotional intelligence. I think it would be really funny if it worked even once.

This really isn't that big of a stretch.

Stoicism made a comeback. Buddhism has a very nerdy intellectual and debate culture. For aesthetics, you can go poetic yet austere Zen, or human bone horns and vengeful deities of Tibetan, or the orthodoxy of Theravada.

But, there are also the types that learn just enough meditation to hack their sleep schedule so they can day trade more. Or enough pop tantra to think they can gently caress their way to enlightenment.

There is definitely an audience out there looking for stuff the dharma provides. But there also also plenty of examples of people who lost the script and went down some crazy paths.

Caufman
May 7, 2007

Bilirubin posted:

thank you for a wonderful post. There are a lot of videos from this week that I plan to watch over the coming days.

Your post also touches upon something I have been thinking about a lot too. I mostly eat vegetarian--my partner has done so for a very long time--and I have been considering giving up my minor meat intake for ethical reasons as well. That would not be difficult, except for fish, which has both health and cultural aspects for me. My bigger obstacle is related to my work, which utilizes animals in a minor way. I think this is justified because in the long run animal health and welfare will be improved much more than without my work, and that a lot of the animals are being put down for other reasons unrelated to me, but still, I'm indirectly responsible, at least in part. I'm ok with this but I can see others not being so.

Unrelated: I'm noticing a drastic decrease in the amount of wine I enjoy over the week, and I'm doing much better getting back on a regular, early (to me, I'm a natural night hawk) sleep cycle. I was reading last night in the Teachings of Buddha that I should be getting up before the sun, and now as I am watching it rise that statement came back to me. Another interesting coincidence with my reenergized mindfulness practice and early explorations in the philosophy underlying mindfulness.

Oof, changing a habit is tough work, in my experience, especially when you're trying to cut against the grain that this world encourages. I am also a natural night hawk, and changing my sleeping pattern is probably one of the most difficult things to stick to. At the monastic retreat, I was able to get up for early morning sitting meditation every day, and I think the monastics started their day at around 5 AM and went to bed at 9 AM. Since getting back, I have not been able to sustain that practice consistently, as the time of this post proves.

I have been able to reduce my consumption of animal products. I'm fortunate that I like tofu and grew up eating it, and other plant-based meatless products taste fine to me. And so far, I haven't had any health issues with eating less animal products. But I'm not as strict as some people are about it. My wife eats dairy and occasionally meat, and I'll finish what she doesn't finish because I don't want food to be thrown away. I'm also reminded of a story the Deer Park abbot shared about the difficulties of always eating vegan when the monastics travel outside their monasteries, particularly in France. He recounted when he want to a bakery in France and asked if they had any vegetarian sandwiches and was told, "Yes. The tuna sandwich is vegetarian."

But the biggest consumption change I've managed to sustain is that I used to be a daily and heavy cannabis user for years, but I've managed to quit since getting back. My biggest motivation was just to get by with a little less consumption in my life, but I guess it's nice that it is also in keeping with the fifth mindfulness training (Plum Village Tradition's version of the five precepts). There's still plenty of other less-than-wholesome consumption habits to work on, but I was surprised by how I've been able to sustain the sobriety from cannabis.

LuckyCat posted:

The last week of memorial and ceremony has been moving to say the least, and has made me want to live the dharma more fully. One thing I have been greatly struggling with reconciling is my feelings on compassion for animals while continuing to eat meat. Today I lost a hen and really struggled with my emotions. After discovering her and tucking her away safely to cremate later I came inside to watch the livestream of Thay’s funeral procession and cremation ceremony. There was poetry, song, touching of the earth, and a sea of saffron as thousands of monks, nuns, and lay paid their respects. At the end I just had a feeling that my desire for meat had disappeared. Idk this is kind of a stream of consciousness post with no real meaning other than I am grieving and growing.



I listened to a lovely dharma talk today by Br. Phap Dung about Thay Nhat Hanh's impact on his own life and others. It had moments of tears and laughter. It captured well how Thay both challenged his students to strive to practice better but was also fully compassionate at meeting people where they are and what limitations they faced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EbhHafr2CY&t=1995s

Spacegrass posted:

The only people I know can help me are Christians. And I am starting to drop back from Christianity.

I echo the wishes of others who hope you'll have an easier time, and that you'll have wise and compassionate people around you. I think it's possible for a Christian to be a bodhisattva, even if it's not possible to generalize that all Christians (or all Buddhists) will be helpful.

corn haver posted:

I'm considering the possibility of somehow convincing/tricking reddit atheists, jordan peterson freaks, and similar types into becoming stream-entrants, giving them the dustless, stainless Dharma eye, knowing that all conditioned things are subject to disintegration. Not just understanding that with their cognition, but connecting with their emotional heart, their citta. Their stupid emotional heart that has to see things directly rise and fall and then just knows. Those guys loving suck and remind me of myself in the early 2000s reading the internet as a kid/young teen in terms of emotional intelligence. I think it would be really funny if it worked even once.

May you have success opening dharma doors for people, especially the ones that remind you of who you were when you were less happy or less wise than you are now. Speaking personally, I find it easy to dismiss or despise people I find contemptible, whether they remind me of myself or not. I need the thays to remind me to look with the eyes of compassion, to consider that people are the way they are because they do not know the practice and have not started, and that my scorn is likely not more helpful than my compassion would be.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>
there's some way of saying it in buddhist terms, but setting those aside,

i think it's a total waste of time and energy to try to trick anyone into being a buddhist who doesn't want to and that all they're going to take from it is some self-serving misunderstanding of how 'actually there's no right and wrong so it doesn't matter what you do' which is generally the idiotic message people take from buddhism when they just ignore/aren't at all drawn to the ethical framework, which is both the precursor to and the result of practice)

that's not to say don't wish the best for them or w/e

corn haver
Mar 28, 2020
Yeah, I was being foolish. I was thinking the self-interest factor could be enough to get people going on a sort of minimal secular Buddhism with very clear simple instructions to at least keep them out of the worst states of mind, but that's already out there presented in 15 different ways for people to discover and few people bite. The ones who actually need it and do find it often end up becoming more deluded. If I do seriously consider trying to help people in such a way I need to be more skillful myself and more realistic.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Caufman posted:

Oof, changing a habit is tough work, in my experience, especially when you're trying to cut against the grain that this world encourages. I am also a natural night hawk, and changing my sleeping pattern is probably one of the most difficult things to stick to. At the monastic retreat, I was able to get up for early morning sitting meditation every day, and I think the monastics started their day at around 5 AM and went to bed at 9 AM. Since getting back, I have not been able to sustain that practice consistently, as the time of this post proves.

I have been able to reduce my consumption of animal products. I'm fortunate that I like tofu and grew up eating it, and other plant-based meatless products taste fine to me. And so far, I haven't had any health issues with eating less animal products. But I'm not as strict as some people are about it. My wife eats dairy and occasionally meat, and I'll finish what she doesn't finish because I don't want food to be thrown away. I'm also reminded of a story the Deer Park abbot shared about the difficulties of always eating vegan when the monastics travel outside their monasteries, particularly in France. He recounted when he want to a bakery in France and asked if they had any vegetarian sandwiches and was told, "Yes. The tuna sandwich is vegetarian."

But the biggest consumption change I've managed to sustain is that I used to be a daily and heavy cannabis user for years, but I've managed to quit since getting back. My biggest motivation was just to get by with a little less consumption in my life, but I guess it's nice that it is also in keeping with the fifth mindfulness training (Plum Village Tradition's version of the five precepts). There's still plenty of other less-than-wholesome consumption habits to work on, but I was surprised by how I've been able to sustain the sobriety from cannabis.

I listened to a lovely dharma talk today by Br. Phap Dung about Thay Nhat Hanh's impact on his own life and others. It had moments of tears and laughter. It captured well how Thay both challenged his students to strive to practice better but was also fully compassionate at meeting people where they are and what limitations they faced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EbhHafr2CY&t=1995s

Thanks again for this. I appreciate your insights and learning of your own struggles. And I am looking forward to listening to that dharma talk.

I have decided that once my current store of frozen lunches are finished I will only buy vegetarian, and will be donating my remaining cans of meat soup to the food bank. I'm not going to stress too much about traces of beef broth here or there (will avoid where I can), and will still permit myself a weekly indulgence in fish, but will be more careful in my purchasing habits going forward. Not going full vegan yet, and will check my blood levels carefully since I have struggled with anemia over the years.

LoL the boulangerie story. I lived in Paris for 2 months and the only time I ever had a "Paris moment" was with a particular bakery, who tried to tell me an incorrect way to order a half baguette. When I protested that asking for "a bit of a baguette" wasn't exactly clear, he then argued that I spoke French "funny." Well, yeah, I'm an anglophone who lived in Quebec for many years; but he spoke French funny too, being from Algeria. I then went down the block to the next bakery (there is ~always~ another bakery in France) and got what I wanted, then asked whether they had ever heard of the word this guy was telling me to use to ask for half a baguette. She laughed and said never, so I never went back to the first place again. Some bakers apparently live in another dimension.

(Although, in a bit of a reversal of this, one day my partner and I wanted pho, but finding a place that serves vegetarian pho is...difficult. We finally found a place, and the food was fabulous, but the weird thing was the owner and all of the wait staff, all women, were all over my partner (also a woman) in attentiveness, to the point that it was a little much. Like we found a Vietnamese lesbian hangout or something and she was the exciting new girl. A week later it struck me: my partner shaves her head--has done for a very long time. They thought she was a monastic.)

re cannabis: haven't hit the vape pen in two weeks now. I have never been a heavy user though, just a toot or two to help me get down to sleep, but that isn't actually good sleep hygiene so I stopped that in favor of sleeping naturally, and its helping.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Herstory Begins Now posted:

there's some way of saying it in buddhist terms, but setting those aside,

i think it's a total waste of time and energy to try to trick anyone into being a buddhist who doesn't want to and that all they're going to take from it is some self-serving misunderstanding of how 'actually there's no right and wrong so it doesn't matter what you do' which is generally the idiotic message people take from buddhism when they just ignore/aren't at all drawn to the ethical framework, which is both the precursor to and the result of practice)

that's not to say don't wish the best for them or w/e
I agree but I don't agree.

I agree that some kind of elaborate trick or stunt to walk people up into Buddhism would be pointless. The point is practice and while I think you can say that any practice is better than no practice, you should, in the long run, not be deceitful. I suppose the strict Pure Land people might have a case, but even there, I don't think the equivalent of Buddhist Chick Tracts would accomplish a whole lot.

I disagree that a change in presentation, or a basic introduction in different ways, would not be a good thing... if the obstacles people encounter involve things which can be ameliorated with different packaging, or by seeing that this isn't something just for (insert group here), then that's certainly good. I did some sitting at a big statue on the grounds of a Sri Lankan sangha not far from me and it felt awkward because I knew I was an outsider to their community. If I had been able to overcome that more easily I think I would have gotten more benefit. That kind of thing.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


But evangelizing is more a Christian thing, even if coming from a place of compassion. At least as I understand it.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bilirubin posted:

But evangelizing is more a Christian thing, even if coming from a place of compassion. At least as I understand it.
My understanding is that Islam and Christianity, broadly constructed, have missionary exhortations in the core texts. Judaism specifically discourages missionary activity - you see a little of this with things like the Hasidim in New York but it's more about trying to get current Jews to perform more religious actions.

Buddhism to my understanding has no missionary exhortation, but some degree of attempting to spread the dharma is a natural outgrowth of compassion. It certainly shouldn't be hidden, or at least any concealments would be along the lines of 'We're making it a little difficult to access this complex Vajrayana visualization exercise because if you do it from a cold start, it will either do nothing or may lead to delusions'.

Spacegrass
May 1, 2013

Caufman posted:


I echo the wishes of others who hope you'll have an easier time, and that you'll have wise and compassionate people around you. I think it's possible for a Christian to be a bodhisattva, even if it's not possible to generalize that all Christians (or all Buddhists) will be helpful.


Thanks. I have a Christian background; I mean literally the strongest memory I had in my youth after kindergarten was a painting my mom put up of Jesus' last supper. I guess I'm stuck; and I hope I find some Christian friends; because I'll probably be treating Buddhism as a philosophy as I usually did (no offense to people who's main religion is Buddhism).

LuckyCat
Jul 26, 2007

Grimey Drawer
Labels lead to suffering ultimately, but I prefer to think of it as a practice and not a religion.

Thirteen Orphans
Dec 2, 2012

I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

LuckyCat posted:

Labels lead to suffering ultimately, but I prefer to think of it as a practice and not a religion.

I personally don’t think those things are mutually exclusive. With my interest and study into the monastic way of life I can in all honesty call Catholicism both my religion and my practice. But that’s just me.

corn haver
Mar 28, 2020
Here's my very brief, very stupid secular introduction to the Buddhist path that I cobbled together. I wrote this for my benefit to try to wrap my head around things and how to discuss the Dharma with people who would not be drawn to the supernatural aspects of Buddhism or the Bodhisattva path but who might actually take things seriously. Please feel free to dunk on me and definitely please point out anything that is straight up wrong.I'm just trying to learn.

quote:

You have a fundamental emotional problem. The part of your mind that is involved with your emotions and will, which I will subsequently be referring to as the heart, is very naive. When it is resting, when it’s not going out into the world of the senses and mental objects, it is profoundly at peace. But the heart doesn’t know that it can do this. It always searches for things outside of itself for happiness and freedom when it’s right there. It's always experiencing a state of stress because it sees itself in things that will change and that you cannot control. This is the fundamental problem. There are two subsequent problems that arise from this lack of awareness. One is the heart seeing itself in things it likes. The other is the heart wanting to not be with things it doesn’t like. The heart does not know how much it can hurt itself in this process. The results can range from the most subtle, such as gently, almost imperceptibly wanting things perceived as good things to continue and a mild sense of dissatisfaction if they didn't, to states of continual, deep suffering that the heart cannot even conceive of escaping.

The process of the correcting this problem involves presenting the heart with incontrovertible evidence that something better is out there, which is directly seeing the true peace and freedom in letting go. This is achieved through ethical conduct, developing the ability to calm and focus the mind, and gaining insight into your moment to moment experience. Developing ethical conduct, concentration, and insight are all tied together. These are your tools for learning about your experience, which will eventually lead to a state in which your heart can no longer harm you because it no longer ties itself to things that can hurt it. Ethical training involves at first following moral guidelines laid out by others. However, it ultimately becomes a process of being with your feelings and understanding things that would make your heart hurt to do, and then abstaining from doing them to reduce the overall burden on your heart, while actively cultivating things that aid in letting go. Concentration involves slowing down using an object of meditation, like the breath or a repeated word. Eventually your heart becomes settled and happy because it doesn’t have to do the work of finding new objects to obsess over. Once you do this, the heart is primed to learn. You work towards investigating your experience. You may watch sensations associated with the breath rise and fall, your emotions, or your mental activity.

Once these factors are developed to a sufficient degree, the heart will get a glimpse of freedom. This is a profoundly life-changing experience. What happens is that when you view things happening very closely, with a calm heart, you can see things arise and fall in your mind. When something that the heart identifies with is clearly arises and falls, the heart will never again see itself in that thing in the way that it did before. This can occur in four stages, which mark milestones in a person's relationship with reality.

The first stage is having insight into the rise and fall of something, anything, the heart identifies with by seeing it happen directly. Once it has done this, it has a fundamental understanding that everything in the world is like this, that it will rise and pass away. But the heart still can’t help jumping out at things and identifying with them if there's pleasure or distaste involved. Things in the outside world still have an emotional draw that can’t be resisted at times, but you can’t knowingly do anything that will cause you great emotional suffering because it was wrong to do. You also gain a sense of fearlessness and comfort in your everyday life that is totally absent from most people. In the second stage, the heart sees the rising and passing away over something it truly obsesses over, like sexual desire or desire to not be in physical pain. Once this happens, true freedom starts to open up in your daily life. You still have desires, but you are incapable of obsessing over them and you can drop them almost immediately if there is harm in them beyond simple distraction. You drop almost all of your emotional activity involved in maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain and generally have a blissful life free of major distress. In the third stage, which is really the culmination of the second stage, the heart no longer identifies itself with anything in the sensory world at all. It still has pride and self-conceit, but in general people experience a deep freedom from everything that concerns others.

Finally, with the ultimate realization, the heart doesn’t identify with anything, not even with the increasing sense of bliss and freedom that has occurred up to this point on the path. At this point, peace is truly unshakable. The heart is now like light shining in empty space, never touching an object. Not even the slightest whiff of dissatisfaction can penetrate the heart and there is final knowledge that there is nothing else that needs to be accomplished. Peace and freedom is enough.

Caufman
May 7, 2007

LuckyCat posted:

Labels lead to suffering ultimately, but I prefer to think of it as a practice and not a religion.

Thirteen Orphans posted:

I personally don’t think those things are mutually exclusive. With my interest and study into the monastic way of life I can in all honesty call Catholicism both my religion and my practice. But that’s just me.

This is an interesting topic for me, the relationship between practice and religion. Thay Nhat Hanh and his monastics will talk about there being a popular form of devotional Buddhism that one can find especially throughout Asia, and there is a numerically smaller form of insight Buddhism that is practiced which focuses more on transformation and healing. The Plum Village Tradition falls mostly on the latter without trying to attack or disparage the former.

At the monastic retreat, I was one of only three Asians that I met who were not of Vietnamese descent. I estimate about half the retreatants were Vietnamese and half were non-Vietnamese, mostly White/White-passing. (I am very used to explaining to non-Indonesian Asians that I don't speak their language when they try to speak it to me, which happened a few times at the retreat to my amusement. I assume they walked away thinking I was a poorly-educated young Vietnamese American as opposed to a non-Vietnamese Asian.)

I met a Vietnamese women who was interested in the monastic life, and she told me that, in her experience, Thay Nhat Hanh was far from universally popular among the Vietnamese community in America. This did not surprise me, as it is consistent with my experiences of spiritual teachers who take a more revitalizing aspect to their spiritual tradition. I asked her why she thought Thay Nhat Hanh was unpopular among some Vietnamese Americans, and she said she believes it's because they find his teaching intimidating. Again, that's consistent with my experience among religious traditions. I imagine that anyone looking for a more familiar, "traditional" form of their religion will be put off by a teacher whose method could be described as modern in its approach but also remaining very true to the original intent of the root teacher. I see this happening in Christianity and Judaism as well for sure, and I don't imagine it would be hard to find examples of this happening in other large traditions/world religions as well.

I'm also interested in the topic of dual/double/multiple belonging. I was reminded of this because of a recent article on Plum Villlage's website about double belonging with an interview with a dharma teacher of Jewish ancestry. Like Spacegrass, I have Christian background. Specifically, my family growing up was nominally Catholic, but I would say its values were closer to Confucian in actual practice. I believe my family converted to Catholicism for practical/political reasons related to the experiences of the ethnic Chinese living in Indonesia more than for any particular fondness for the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. But I had and still have a fondness for those stories and teachings. I also mentioned in the Religion thread that I work for a progressive synagogue and get to observe their weekly Torah study, and this has been a real treat. Seeing people engage the stories and characters of the Torah with such curiosity and intimacy, it makes me think that if a person can draw such closeness from stories of different origins with such original characteristics, why would they not want to, and why would I want to discourage them from doing so?

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Nessus posted:

Buddhism to my understanding has no missionary exhortation, but some degree of attempting to spread the dharma is a natural outgrowth of compassion.'.

Compared to Christianity, Buddhism doesn't have the same Manichean like battle for souls.

But Buddhiam does have a missionary spirit. We wouldn't know of Buddhism if it didn't, because it practically went extinct in the land of its birth, and many of us practice a variety which was spread to Thailand, or Vietnam, or Tibet, or Japan.

Soon after the Buddha's enlightenment comes tales of deities pleading to spread the word. Of telling his old companions what he learned. Of traveling the county to train converts and debate the merits of the path he found.

Later Mahayana texts are often quick to label pratyekabuddhas, those who find enlightenment on their own but fail to teach it, as a lesser path.

I would say that many later forms of Buddhism lost the original evangelical sprit. In places where it became a the official state religion, it is understandable. But when sects lost that comfort, they quickly went back to missionary effort. The spread of Zen out of post war Japan. The spread of Tibetan schools during their diaspora. Thich Naht Hahn after being exiled from Vietnam. Vipasana schools out of Myanmar's coups.

Buddhist evangelizing certainly doesn't look like Christianity's. But it still has a long history of spreading the dharma to converts.

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

corn haver posted:

Here's my very brief, very stupid secular introduction to the Buddhist path that I cobbled together. I wrote this for my benefit to try to wrap my head around things and how to discuss the Dharma with people who would not be drawn to the supernatural aspects of Buddhism or the Bodhisattva path but who might actually take things seriously. Please feel free to dunk on me and definitely please point out anything that is straight up wrong.I'm just trying to learn.

That is not a bad take on Buddhism, in the context of keeping it in a secular framework.

I would only ask; Is this mostly just to emphasize the insight gained from experiencing the Arising and Passing Away, or are your 4 stages an analogy to the 4 stages of awakening (stream entery to arahant)?

corn haver
Mar 28, 2020
It's just a conceptual framework to explain that there is a real permanent psychological change that happens to a person with insight, and that there is there a yardstick for this that can again be grasped with insight, ie what is abandoned. I've poked around online and it seems like those labels found in Theravada can be deeply harmful to people. But tossing the baby out with the bathwater and not discussing liberation in a way that seems possible or understandable also seems like a mistake, like only mentioning full enlightenment.

corn haver fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Feb 1, 2022

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

corn haver posted:

Here's my very brief, very stupid secular introduction to the Buddhist path that I cobbled together. I wrote this for my benefit to try to wrap my head around things and how to discuss the Dharma with people who would not be drawn to the supernatural aspects of Buddhism or the Bodhisattva path but who might actually take things seriously. Please feel free to dunk on me and definitely please point out anything that is straight up wrong.I'm just trying to learn.

I enjoyed reading this

Do you think the insights are threshold, aha moments? or is there still a very gradual sense of insight as it grows?

I think I know a lot of this stuff intellectually, but I don't feel any insight. Probably relates to not enough time on the cushion.

corn haver
Mar 28, 2020

echinopsis posted:

I enjoyed reading this

Do you think the insights are threshold, aha moments? or is there still a very gradual sense of insight as it grows?

I think I know a lot of this stuff intellectually, but I don't feel any insight. Probably relates to not enough time on the cushion.
There's a lot of required groundwork to permit realization for most people. I think most people who have actually achieved some degree of freedom basically slowly gain enough insight to recognize a fundamental problem they are having in their emotional world, and then develop a very deep determination to investigate it fully because they know that they are just wasting time and potentially backsliding to varying possible degrees by not addressing it. This insight is like knowing that you have a thorn in your foot that hurts every time you walk and that to delay removing it is allowing it to fester, regardless of how much it might hurt to get it out. Eventually whatever combination of skills they have developed and natural strengths come together in their efforts, and the heart is able to see the temporary nature of the affliction (and the volitional activity involved in perpetuating the heart's involvement with it) in a moment, after which there is disenchantment, ranging from what I described in the first step to full enlightenment.

There's exceptions of course, like the story of the monk that got horned up while looking at a naked corpse while trying to contemplate death, and they gained full release right then because they saw the utter senselessness of the heart's desires in full.

I am super ignorant though so please take everything with a grain of salt. Someone who really knew their stuff with what is required to gain insight and felt it was important to talk about their own experiences was Ven. Maha Bua, a Thai monk. His book The Path to Arahantship was really fascinating to me because he speaks frankly about his very advanced meditation practice. On a lighter note, he really goes off and ends up calling Thai Buddhists "really stupid" because a lot of monks didn't like the fact that he cried while discussing his experience with the Dharma, which in their minds indicated a lack of attainment. But the skandhas are not the arahant.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


I love logging into the thread in the mornings to find several posts. You all always give a lot to think about.

Was reading the The Teaching of Buddah last night, and we're starting to get to the heart of things. One thing stood out to me, about looking into the sky and there being no innate concept of East or West, except for that which we humans introduce. That resonated.

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019



:420::toot::420:

Bilirubin posted:

I love logging into the thread in the mornings to find several posts. You all always give a lot to think about.

Was reading the The Teaching of Buddah last night, and we're starting to get to the heart of things. One thing stood out to me, about looking into the sky and there being no innate concept of East or West, except for that which we humans introduce. That resonated.

It's a personal habit of mine to push this one level down every time I possibly can - the "no innate East or West" in nature except what we humans introduce is true in the specific and (because of?) the general. All dualities are mental constructs that consciousness is projecting on the universe. And it's separate from good and/or bad, because the essential function of the human brain is to conceptualize functional frameworks of duality that allow us to navigate life in the world, to a degree of success. All dualities are empty as the east and west; as I learned from Thich Nhat Hanh a while back; no mud, no lotus!

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



LuckyCat posted:

Labels lead to suffering ultimately, but I prefer to think of it as a practice and not a religion.
I think there is flexibility here... to me it fits the same sort of space in my mind and hopefully in my life-style as a religion; it may not be the same as a Christian sect or a Jewish sect (and it is understandable that to many people, that = Religion, not that != Religion) but I can say I had a brief visit to the hospital in 2019 and in 2021; when they asked me my religion I was able to say "Buddhist" both times without really thinking about it. I assume if I'd stayed there for a while to recover from surgery or other treatments a Buddhist minister of some fashion would have dropped by.

At the same time I think that the meditative practices are a little different from prayers and devotions in Western traditions, especially since you can dabble with them without any sort of a commitment and still get great benefits.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 1, 2022

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


ram dass in hell posted:

It's a personal habit of mine to push this one level down every time I possibly can - the "no innate East or West" in nature except what we humans introduce is true in the specific and (because of?) the general. All dualities are mental constructs that consciousness is projecting on the universe. And it's separate from good and/or bad, because the essential function of the human brain is to conceptualize functional frameworks of duality that allow us to navigate life in the world, to a degree of success. All dualities are empty as the east and west; as I learned from Thich Nhat Hanh a while back; no mud, no lotus!

yeah this section of the book went on at length (the longest section so far) on this very topic, which I should reread since its important and I'm not sure I got all of it. I understand how good/bad are impermanent--good things can lead to bad if held to long (thinking ego inflation here) and bad things can turn to good in the longer run. But then we still have to perform "right" (suggesting there is a "wrong" to my duelist brain) actions so I guess the answer is to stay even, calm, in order to know and do right at that time. And if it turns out to be wrong, well, not to beat ourselves up about it because we couldn't know before hand, and can only do what we know is right at the time.

Maybe I am jumping ahead to far though

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

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Bilirubin posted:

yeah this section of the book went on at length (the longest section so far) on this very topic, which I should reread since its important and I'm not sure I got all of it. I understand how good/bad are impermanent--good things can lead to bad if held to long (thinking ego inflation here) and bad things can turn to good in the longer run. But then we still have to perform "right" (suggesting there is a "wrong" to my duelist brain) actions so I guess the answer is to stay even, calm, in order to know and do right at that time. And if it turns out to be wrong, well, not to beat ourselves up about it because we couldn't know before hand, and can only do what we know is right at the time.

Maybe I am jumping ahead to far though
I think you're on the right track.

Right action doesn't guarantee success in the task, but it does guarantee that you didn't undertake wrong action. In terms of karma, the more you follow right action, the better. It's not an absolute, it's more like an orientation and a location. As you do more right action and less wrong action, you move in a better direction, even if some wrong action is difficult or practically impossible to cease.

I think the metaphor of 'accumulating merit' is helpful because it isn't like you are sent to eternal hell if your Karma Score isn't above 370 at your time of death. You can always do good, even if sometimes only a little bit.

Spacegrass
May 1, 2013

Nessus posted:

I think you're on the right track.

Right action doesn't guarantee success in the task, but it does guarantee that you didn't undertake wrong action. In terms of karma, the more you follow right action, the better. It's not an absolute, it's more like an orientation and a location. As you do more right action and less wrong action, you move in a better direction, even if some wrong action is difficult or practically impossible to cease.

I think the metaphor of 'accumulating merit' is helpful because it isn't like you are sent to eternal hell if your Karma Score isn't above 370 at your time of death. You can always do good, even if sometimes only a little bit.

I've made ALOT of wrong actions; and I have paid for it in prison, though these actions still haunt me. I try and make it up by helping people. Is helping people futile as far as a good rebirth? (Though it's not such a selfish act, as I actually want to see the world as a better place.)

Spacegrass fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Feb 2, 2022

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
There's no futile actions, just cause and effect. If you do good things that help people, you create good causes and get good results. If you do lovely actions that create suffering, you get those results.

So there's no futility in doing moral acts if your goal is good results and a net improvement in the world because of cause and effect. Apple trees only give apples, not oranges, you know?

More than anything in Buddhist ethics I think the most important thing is recognizing that the fruits of good actions are good fruits, and because karma is complicated maybe you see the benefits at once, maybe you see it later, but you can't not see it.

Additionally, it's not like a big ledger. There's no karmic accountant doing math to give you net positive or negative merits. If you punch a guy in the face and then help his mom across the street, they don't cancel each other out. You just get the results of both.

So just be good to people and accept that that's good to do no matter what suffering you've caused in the past.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
In my opinion the pro move with moral behavior is to do those things that reduce suffering for sentient beings because suffering sucks. The precepts and bodhisattva vows and so on are just a good roadmap for what that looks like. But for me, if I can reduce suffering in the world then it doesn't even matter if I get personal liberation because this world of suffering sucks rear end and anything I can do to reduce that suffering is worth it.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
Similarly the pro move to deal with my brevity problems is to break my posts up into chains,,,

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Spacegrass posted:

I've made ALOT of wrong actions; and I have paid for it in prison, though these actions still haunt me. I try and make it up by helping people. Is helping people futile as far as a good rebirth? (Though it's not such a selfish act, as I actually want to see the world as a better place.)
I can't really say when, but I can say that a good act will bear its fruits -- just can't say when. But the more you sow, the better the harvest, right?

There are schools that say if you call on Amida Buddha you will surely be reborn in a place where you can practice the dharma in way better conditions than you can here, which may interest you.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Paramemetic posted:

There's no futile actions, just cause and effect. If you do good things that help people, you create good causes and get good results. If you do lovely actions that create suffering, you get those results.

So there's no futility in doing moral acts if your goal is good results and a net improvement in the world because of cause and effect. Apple trees only give apples, not oranges, you know?

More than anything in Buddhist ethics I think the most important thing is recognizing that the fruits of good actions are good fruits, and because karma is complicated maybe you see the benefits at once, maybe you see it later, but you can't not see it.

Additionally, it's not like a big ledger. There's no karmic accountant doing math to give you net positive or negative merits. If you punch a guy in the face and then help his mom across the street, they don't cancel each other out. You just get the results of both.

So just be good to people and accept that that's good to do no matter what suffering you've caused in the past.

it sounds kinda boring and mundane, but imo one of the most legitimately transformative things is just how much life changes after you've meaningfully worked to not be destructive and harmful and hopefully even have worked to be decent and supportive person for a while. It doesn't change the past, and of course it isn't some 'you have good karma so now life is all good and you are always happy' thing either, but it's a lot like lifting weights: if you stick with it, eventually the results pile up and you look like someone who has been lifting weights for several years, even if you weren't perfect or doing some scientifically optimal program.

anyways i realize I'm mostly just paraphrasing what you already said

On a similar but somewhat different note: I don't always know what tf to do in life, but if absolutely nothing else, trying to figure out the path through situations that doesn't do harm and doesn't add to the trauma of the world has never let me down. Definitely doesn't always turn out how I'd prefer, but man I've literally never regretted using that as a guiding principle and wherever that leaves me always seems better for everyone than the alternative. That's probably pretty obvious to most people, but idk I was a huge rear end in a top hat and had to learn that the hard way.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Thanks for all these posts all

Tonight was a bit of a backslide for me, in that events led to a bit of an emotional overwhelm and bad decisions were made. These however led to better connection with my loved others and in the end it was a positive I'd say, stress and pain notwithstanding.

Keep moving forward and trying to do the right thing. And I need to redouble my meditation, which was helping tremendously, but I've let slide the past few days.

E4C85D38
Feb 7, 2010

Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

corn haver posted:

Here's my very brief, very stupid secular introduction to the Buddhist path that I cobbled together. I wrote this for my benefit to try to wrap my head around things and how to discuss the Dharma with people who would not be drawn to the supernatural aspects of Buddhism or the Bodhisattva path but who might actually take things seriously. Please feel free to dunk on me and definitely please point out anything that is straight up wrong.I'm just trying to learn.

I found this super useful and have added this to my notes for when I need help with communication and perspective-taking. Thank you.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bilirubin posted:

Thanks for all these posts all

Tonight was a bit of a backslide for me, in that events led to a bit of an emotional overwhelm and bad decisions were made. These however led to better connection with my loved others and in the end it was a positive I'd say, stress and pain notwithstanding.

Keep moving forward and trying to do the right thing. And I need to redouble my meditation, which was helping tremendously, but I've let slide the past few days.
Always remember, it's better to do a little every day than a whole bunch today, none tomorrow, none the day after, a little the third day but not really, none the fourth, etc.

But it's good to do some practice too, so just don't feel like you "have" to do 15/30/60 minutes a day or what not, especially if it is early days.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Nessus posted:

Always remember, it's better to do a little every day than a whole bunch today, none tomorrow, none the day after, a little the third day but not really, none the fourth, etc.

But it's good to do some practice too, so just don't feel like you "have" to do 15/30/60 minutes a day or what not, especially if it is early days.

Yes good advice, which I will attend to. I was up to 15 minutes of good meditation but I let some deadlines push it aside. I will ensure that time is always allowed in the schedule.

Appoda
Oct 30, 2013

Hi buddha thread :)

Is there a goon thread or otherwise generally accepted "Meditation for Dummies" guide? I remember messing with it a decade ago when I was bored and out of work but I can't recall anything I've learned and it'd probably be best to start over.

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BIG FLUFFY DOG
Feb 16, 2011

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.


Appoda posted:

Hi buddha thread :)

Is there a goon thread or otherwise generally accepted "Meditation for Dummies" guide? I remember messing with it a decade ago when I was bored and out of work but I can't recall anything I've learned and it'd probably be best to start over.

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