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Very nice to see them do away with the intrusive event spam. The journal entries also seem like a really neat idea, especially how they appear to be like a gradient between decisions and events, rather than all having the same core structure. Danann posted:Can't wait to get a bug that continually triggers Great Molasses Floods until the end of time.
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Jan 27, 2022 22:06
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decisions page looking good.
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Jan 30, 2022 19:58
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1488527560170373120 Qing Emperor Ulysses S. Grant (Yeah I'm sure character models are WIP but it's still funny to me)
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Feb 1, 2022 16:39
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I think general Lee will fit better.
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Feb 1, 2022 17:27
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I demand Celestial Emperor Burnsides
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Feb 1, 2022 18:10
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Pakled posted:https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1488527560170373120 The "unrecognized power" thing is one of the only features so far that feels at risk of being artificially dictated, but hopefully I'm missing something. Are China and Japan hardcoded as unrecognized, or is it something purely dynamic to do with diplomatic relations between the most powerful nations? Like if you tweaked the starting values a bit so that Asian nations held the majority of power at the start of the game, would they then automatically count as the recognized powers and Europe would be unrecognized?
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Feb 1, 2022 18:23
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I'm pretty sure that the recognised / unrecognised thing is just based on a flag you have on game startup. Which makes sense because it's inherently arbitrary already, either Europeans think you're a savage barbarian or not, it's not based on anything else.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:47
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They’ve said that unrecognized powers can gain recognition (don’t recall if the opposite is true). Wiz specifically cited IRL Japan as the inspiration for how they want the system to work.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:08
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fuf posted:The "unrecognized power" thing is one of the only features so far that feels at risk of being artificially dictated, but hopefully I'm missing something. dev blog 18 posted:What Rank a country has – be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power – is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition. Here's what we know, go check out the dev diaries I guess.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:08
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This is sort of a minor thing admittedly but "unrecognized power" seems like a very inapt term for, say, the Qing Empire or Tokugawa-era Japan, which rather famously negotiated treaties with the European states. "Unrecognized power" seems like it should be reserved for organized governments that lacked international recognition (Confederate States, Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, etc.) or various native societies that got bulldozed by the imperalists.
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Feb 1, 2022 21:41
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That seems to be why they sectioned them out to Unrecognized Major Power. I'm guessing even with all the changes they still haven't managed to make it so having Qing as a regular nation right off the bat wouldn't break the game
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Feb 1, 2022 22:07
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I think the idea is that it mostly boils down to whether or not the Great Powers care what the other Great Powers do to them. Like a lot of people wanted to trade with China, but when they said no, the British were just like "lol okay we're invading then" and the rest of Europe was totally fine with it. It's meant to be the same idea as the "civilized/uncivilized" system from Vicky 2 except without the arbitrary research restrictions for being "uncivilized". There's nothing mechanically preventing China from becoming an economic and military power on par with the British Empire this time around, but they start behind and while they are behind, other countries will have no qualms about trying to take bites out of them until they can prove that they are not to be hosed with.
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Feb 1, 2022 22:38
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HannibalBarca posted:This is sort of a minor thing admittedly but "unrecognized power" seems like a very inapt term for, say, the Qing Empire or Tokugawa-era Japan, which rather famously negotiated treaties with the European states. "Unrecognized power" seems like it should be reserved for organized governments that lacked international recognition (Confederate States, Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, etc.) or various native societies that got bulldozed by the imperalists. If you're going to use a simple term to capture that concept, "unrecognized" is as good as any and way better than "uncivilized".
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Feb 1, 2022 23:20
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HannibalBarca posted:This is sort of a minor thing admittedly but "unrecognized power" seems like a very inapt term for, say, the Qing Empire or Tokugawa-era Japan, which rather famously negotiated treaties with the European states. "Unrecognized power" seems like it should be reserved for organized governments that lacked international recognition (Confederate States, Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, etc.) or various native societies that got bulldozed by the imperalists.
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Feb 2, 2022 06:33
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In the European worldview China starts off being seen as a civilised country in the 18th.C, and then gets kind of retrospectively recategorised as backwards once industrialisation and scientific racism really start getting their groove on, travellers bring back stories of what a basket case late Qing-era China is and the opium trade shifts into high gear. It’s wild to me that this massive change in perspective happens over just 20 years, even though about the same has happened in reverse over the last 20 or so as China’s gone from undeveloped backwater to Top Nation.
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Feb 2, 2022 07:04
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HannibalBarca posted:This is sort of a minor thing admittedly but "unrecognized power" seems like a very inapt term for, say, the Qing Empire or Tokugawa-era Japan, which rather famously negotiated treaties with the European states. "Unrecognized power" seems like it should be reserved for organized governments that lacked international recognition (Confederate States, Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, etc.) or various native societies that got bulldozed by the imperalists. I'd love to use a better term but honestly I just haven't been able to think of one for 'countries that the Great Powers are racist against' since I don't want to actually use racist terminology. Feel free to come with suggestions.
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Feb 2, 2022 09:55
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Wiz posted:I'd love to use a better term but honestly I just haven't been able to think of one for 'countries that the Great Powers are racist against' since I don't want to actually use racist terminology. Feel free to come with suggestions. Marginalised or Peripheral?
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Feb 2, 2022 09:59
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It's still very western centered terminology. A GP is defined through the lens of western thought, but an industrialized China of equal or greater power to the western powers should be able to just be a power in its own sphere, on its own terms.
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Feb 2, 2022 10:07
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Demiurge4 posted:It's still very western centered terminology. A GP is defined through the lens of western thought, but an industrialized China of equal or greater power to the western powers should be able to just be a power in its own sphere, on its own terms. It can. Recognised/Unrecognised is literally just "what does the Official Great Powers Club think of this country?" and an unrecognised country can carve out and hold a sphere of influence just fine.
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Feb 2, 2022 10:15
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It's hard to think of the terminology when you don't know what it actually means in game terms. I guess the real world distinction was "is there any doubt this nation can withstand the aggression of any European country with their big ships with cannons" and the trend was started by Napoleon's surprising success in Egypt. I might totally misunderstand this but I think it was this invasion that made Europeans think of non-European armies as not a factor in a war. In this case, something like "sovereign/non-sovereign" would work? But then again, in many ways, say, Ottoman Empire was a non-sovereign state - as in Europeans did not adhere to local laws and its fate was decided in international blunders like the Crimean war - but in terms of Victoria 2 and probably Victoria 3 it's in the club.
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Feb 2, 2022 10:42
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I think unrecognised sounds fine, because that word's about optics, not actual terms of power.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:16
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This better be modeled on the map, just an ever expanding puddle of engulfing America and then the world. Sounds vaguely Lovecraftian.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:16
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Orange Devil posted:Sounds vaguely Lovecraftian. I wouldn't mind the option of adding the Biomass from UFO: Aftermath.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:23
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So imagine a set of starting conditions where you had, say, five major European powers, and five major Asian powers, of exactly equal strength. The game would have to arbitrarily decide that one group is the Official Great Powers Club, and the other group is "unrecognized". (Or maybe a mix of the two groups would constitute the Great Powers, but that wouldn't seem to make much sense diplomatically.) I get that this is necessary for how diplomacy works in the game, but it still strikes me as an unfortunate vestige of hard coding in a game which is otherwise beautifully dynamic. It also seems like the reason why all the suggested terminology sounds a bit awkward: it's a game where relations are immanent and fluid, but then there's this one set of terms that are imposed from above and framed by a particular perspective.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:33
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fuf posted:So imagine a set of starting conditions where you had, say, five major European powers, and five major Asian powers, of exactly equal strength. I imagine if modders wanted to model that, they could create their own mechanics to handle that, but since Vicky 3 takes place in the real starting date of 1836, it's not that weird to have the mechanic work that way.
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Feb 2, 2022 11:39
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Panzeh posted:I imagine if modders wanted to model that, they could create their own mechanics to handle that, but since Vicky 3 takes place in the real starting date of 1836, it's not that weird to have the mechanic work that way. Ok so how about a situation where the game starts historically but then for whatever reason the European powers slide into decline and the Asian powers become industrial powerhouses? I wonder how the game would handle that? Maybe the Asian powers would start making it onto the Great Powers list despite their unrecognized status (it sounds like being unrecognized just makes it harder to become a GP but not impossible) and then when enough of them are on the list everything would flip and the European powers would become the unrecognized ones? It all depends on whether your recognized/unrecognized status is determined by your diplomatic status with the GP list (so can change as the GP list changes), or if it really is just a hardcoded flag. To be clear none of this is really criticism it's just fun to think about. 
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Feb 2, 2022 11:57
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It literally says in the blog that it's the current Great Powers list and not hard-coded.
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Feb 2, 2022 12:31
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Fellblade posted:It literally says in the blog that it's the current Great Powers list and not hard-coded. I hope so but I was reading "countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized" from the dev diary as a bit ambiguous on that point. This bit definitely makes it sound dynamic: "it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal" But we don't know enough yet to say how it'll work for sure.
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Feb 2, 2022 13:06
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I imagine in the scenario you've described modders will have to make it so that every power starts off unrecognized. When the balance shifts some sort of mechanic or event will give some country Recognized status. Then existing mechanics will quickly spread it to some other countries.
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Feb 2, 2022 13:20
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Maybe but I'm hopeful the base game will also be able to handle the possibility of Asia becoming the locus of world power. I mean it's unlikely given the start date but it shouldn't be totally impossible.
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Feb 2, 2022 13:42
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It certainly sounds like it could happen pretty organically, as various asian nations are first recognized by the existing great powers, and then supplant them.
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Feb 2, 2022 13:55
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The dev diary says that one way of going from Unrecognised to Recognised is to bloody the nose of a great power, and if the Official Great Powers Club winds up weaker than China or Ethiopia or Mysore or whoever, that's probably gonna happen pretty quickly, because loving around where you aren't wanted is what great powers do.
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Feb 2, 2022 13:59
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fuf posted:I hope so but I was reading "countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized" from the dev diary as a bit ambiguous on that point. I don't think that line particularly suggests anything hardcoded? If anything it suggests otherwise - if you START in a given state that implies the possibility of change, otherwise you'd just say "countries are either Unrecognized or Recognized."
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Feb 2, 2022 14:17
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Tomn posted:I don't think that line particularly suggests anything hardcoded? If anything it suggests otherwise - if you START in a given state that implies the possibility of change, otherwise you'd just say "countries are either Unrecognized or Recognized." Oh yeah it can definitely change as the game progresses - we know that unrecognized nations can become recognized and that's one of their goals. But I don't think we know totally for sure whether the initial recognized/unrecognized status is calculated dynamically at the start of the game, or if it's manually specified. Like if you went in and tweaked some economic values so that different nations were on the GP list at the start of the game, would that also automatically change the distribution of recognized/unrecognized nations?
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Feb 2, 2022 14:54
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Achievement: The Tower of Bundon: As a Chinese Great Power, have a treaty port concession in an British Unrecognized Major Power.
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Feb 2, 2022 15:06
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The Southampton Concession
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Feb 2, 2022 15:12
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fuf posted:Oh yeah it can definitely change as the game progresses - we know that unrecognized nations can become recognized and that's one of their goals.
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Feb 2, 2022 15:12
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fuf posted:Oh yeah it can definitely change as the game progresses - we know that unrecognized nations can become recognized and that's one of their goals. Considering that if you're modding the initial economic status of nations, you can just as easily mod the recognized/unrecognized status to match what you want, I'm going to say that having it be manually specified is just clearly better in every possible way than trying to come up with some series of dynamic rules that will give the desired results in the historical scenario.
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Feb 2, 2022 15:15
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Jabor posted:Considering that if you're modding the initial economic status of nations, you can just as easily mod the recognized/unrecognized status to match what you want, I'm going to say that having it be manually specified is just clearly better in every possible way than trying to come up with some series of dynamic rules that will give the desired results in the historical scenario. Exactly, because again, this mechanism isn’t supposed to represent any tangible merits of the country in question. Calculating that stuff is what the normal power score for.
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Feb 2, 2022 15:19
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Fray posted:Exactly, because again, this mechanism isn’t supposed to represent any tangible merits of the country in question. Calculating that stuff is what the normal power score for.
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Feb 2, 2022 15:37
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