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Madurai posted:To Powder, the enforcers aren't oppressors, just a bigger gang that has hurt her personally, and she desires revenge, period. As Jinx, she never grows out of a completely personal revenge-based outlook. If Jinx is as one-track minded and apolitical as you claim, unable to comprehend or uninterested in the social basis of her own material life of which she struggles to find food, and cares not that the Enforcers' violent subjugation is legitimized by the state and ultimately serves the interests of the privileged class, why, in her initial attack on Piltover did she leave a message directly mocking their celebration/notion of Progress which emphasizes her subaltern position? Why was her final act of the series in the 'entirely apolitical' last dinner scene, upon complete formal acceptance of her extremist position, the immediate launching of a direct attack on the literal ruling class? pidan posted:She already has the crystal at that point, she's not fighting for Silco, she's living out a personal grudge. It's also not a suicide attack. If she intended to die at all, it's something she decided on the spot. A suicide attack is not defined by how far in advanced it's planned. She had lost the fight at that point. Your reading of the scene was what, that Ekko was considering letting her go and that she knew this? KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 13:23
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I don't think my eyes have rolled so far back into my head before but congratulations on achieving that. Jesus loving christ this conversation is so loving stupid
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Feb 1, 2022 13:40
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pidan posted:There are a number of ways you could interpret the grenade scene that tie in with aspects of Jinx story that are explicit in other parts of the series: My read was "Ekko was one of the last people that she loved." Sure, they were already enemies before, but this was the first real, personal battle between the two. It's canon, at least in the game itself, that Ekko had a crush on Jinx when they were kids. I think that was likely reciprocated. At the very minimum, she was aware of his old feelings. The way Jinx moves before the fight, everything about it, is pretty flirty. Maybe she would have felt differently had she won---probably would have hosed her up either way, but she didn't win. Instead, this girl with pretty clear attachment issues gets the absolute poo poo kicked out of her by yet another person she knows loved her. Even though it's her fault, she sees another betrayal. In her warped mind, she was supposed to win. Maybe because she always won. Maybe because Ekko was supposed to still love her. Maybe both. A few years back, a friend of mine lost his drat mind and assaulted me. I am not a big guy. I had to dig really deep and did some things I am not proud of to keep me out of a hospital bed. That friendship was dusted the moment I got attacked, but to the old friend, I was the one who did the betrayal. Because he was so much bigger and stronger than me, he was supposed to win. That I was supposed to ignore the clear threat to my life and fight "fair" and lose. Jinx had a bit of that in this scene, I will bet anything. Even though she caused the fight, she still feels betrayed, and it was just one dagger too many. The last person from her childhood she ever hoped to reconcile with, no matter how unrealistic that hope was. There was no "cause" she was fighting for. She wanted to kill herself, and she wanted to take the "traitor" with her. And, probably, there's some kind of hosed up romantic element at work--dying together with one's love to seal intimacy.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:16
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If you look at the Imagine Dragons video it does show them hanging out and being at the least, besties. The video is actually pretty good about showing early Vi and Powder stuff I wish we'd seen in the series but was understandably chopped for time.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:53
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We spend a tonne of time inside Jinx's head during the series. We can refer to those scenes when discussing her motivations, rather than writing inane political screeds
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Feb 1, 2022 19:17
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Veryslightlymad posted:My read was "Ekko was one of the last people that she loved." I like this interpretation, thank you for sharing it :3
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Feb 1, 2022 23:41
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Irony Be My Shield posted:We spend a tonne of time inside Jinx's head during the series. We can refer to those scenes when discussing her motivations, rather than writing inane political screeds This is a story where Jinx overcomes the reliving of the most traumatic moment of her life to weaponize the gemstone in order to strengthen the underclass rebellion; one of which she's a frontline soldier that she's willing to die for. Which of these scenes are you referring to where it reveals that she doesn’t actually care about class warfare (Y'know, the basic premise of the series)?
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Feb 2, 2022 14:51
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KVeezy3 posted:(Y'know, the basic premise of the series)? Says you. You are the only one saying this.
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Feb 2, 2022 14:56
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Asema posted:Says you. You are the only one saying this. Amid the stark discord of twin cities Piltover and Zaun, two sisters fight on rival sides of a war between magic technologies and clashing convictions. - The official Netflix description
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Feb 2, 2022 16:27
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How the gently caress is this conversation still happening?
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Feb 2, 2022 16:29
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I do think its hard to pin exact political ideologies onto the characters, Jinx in particular. Because although she fights alongside a bunch of revolutionaries she doesn't seem politically motivated - it's an emotional/personal battle for her. And the fact that the writers have chosen to take a class conflict and collapse it down into a character-play is just as, if not more, interesting as the exact class symbolism behind Silco or Vander or whoever.
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Feb 2, 2022 16:34
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Arcane is ultimately a character piece yes, using the class struggle as a setting detail to add flavour, but it's focused more on the individual experiences within the struggle than any message about the struggle itself.
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Feb 2, 2022 16:35
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I’m glad we finally circled back to the point I made a month ago.
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Feb 2, 2022 16:39
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There's a conflict between two cities because it gives a lot of drama, like oh no my girlfriend is posh can it ever work, or oh no my colleague is a bigot now I'm not in love with him anymore. It's a super common way to create drama, characters coming from different and incompatible backgrounds. It needs to have a war theme so that the lol characters can show off their fighting moves. It's not that deep.
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Feb 2, 2022 16:46
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pidan posted:There's a conflict between two cities because it gives a lot of drama, like oh no my girlfriend is posh can it ever work, or oh no my colleague is a bigot now I'm not in love with him anymore. It's a super common way to create drama, characters coming from different and incompatible backgrounds. It needs to have a war theme so that the lol characters can show off their fighting moves. It's not that deep. ‘Depth’ in art is ideological. That is to say, you can completely disregard the political dimension of the story, but that is a choice you make. Strom Cuzewon posted:I do think its hard to pin exact political ideologies onto the characters, Jinx in particular. Because although she fights alongside a bunch of revolutionaries she doesn't seem politically motivated - it's an emotional/personal battle for her. The disagreement is not over the nuances of the precise mapping of these characters on an ideological spectrum, but the basic premise of the story. The concisely written official description apparently goes even farther than my readings in explicitly characterizing Vi and Jinx as on opposing sides of a class war — it even has the phrase “Clashing convictions” in it! Truly radical.
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Feb 2, 2022 18:57
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I like how you’re assuming that blurb was actually written by the development team/writers and not some marketing schmuck. Do you know how many DVD and video game cases I have where the description on the back is barely reminiscent of the actual material of the movie/show/game?
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Feb 2, 2022 21:50
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It will be really interesting seeing what Jinx might have to say about class struggle in Zaun/Piltover next season. Without Silco around to set the tone for Zaun leadership, she might end up having to articulate more of an ideology for what Zaun should be doing on-camera. Or she might end up drifting away from the center of purple drank company decision-making... If Singed and Viktor end up being the face of Zaun next season, that could also generate some really cool conflicts.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:51
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Not to spoil the potential Arcane season 2 stuff but there's already foundations of whats after with the Runeterra lore as well as the last couple champions in league.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:14
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Rarity posted:How the gently caress is this conversation still happening? I'm not one to tell somebody to shut the gently caress up but it would be really cool if said person who is driving this circular conversation made an offshoot thread to specifically talk about the inner workings of the show so that this thread can talk about neato things without wasting ten pages on the same bullshit
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Feb 2, 2022 23:15
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AlternateNu posted:I like how you’re assuming that blurb was actually written by the development team/writers and not some marketing schmuck. I'm not assuming any such thing — I could not care less if the head creatives personally wrote it, as I believe authorial intent is irrelevant, but these kinds of things seem to be very important to other posters in this thread. I specifically cited the official 'canon' description in this case in response to a poster positing that no one else sees Arcane on the same basic premise as I do. That said, there's no need to play hypotheticals — I think this marketing blurb is both very accurate and concise; so what about it do you think is inaccurate, and why? Asema posted:I'm not one to tell somebody to shut the gently caress up but it would be really cool if said person who is driving this circular conversation made an offshoot thread to specifically talk about the inner workings of the show so that this thread can talk about neato things without wasting ten pages on the same bullshit Thanks for the suggestion, but I'll pass. Feel free to make an Arcane 'no politics discussion' thread tho KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 2, 2022 |
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Feb 2, 2022 23:33
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KVeezy3 posted:Thanks for the suggestion, but I'll pass. Cool have this suggestion next: Shut up for a bit so the thread isn't doing the same conversation for 20 more pages
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Feb 2, 2022 23:34
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Asema posted:Cool have this suggestion next: Shut up for a bit so the thread isn't doing the same conversation for 20 more pages Yeah it's time to have a much more important discussion. I think next season the punchy lady and the shooty lady should kiss on the mouth
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Feb 2, 2022 23:36
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Rarity posted:Yeah it's time to have a much more important discussion. I think next season the punchy lady and the shooty lady should kiss on the mouth Kissing is praxis.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:40
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The should keep kissing for the next two years, until we get some more content. Possibly in Caitlyn's shower.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:14
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avoraciopoctules posted:It will be really interesting seeing what Jinx might have to say about class struggle in Zaun/Piltover next season. Without Silco around to set the tone for Zaun leadership, she might end up having to articulate more of an ideology for what Zaun should be doing on-camera. Or she might end up drifting away from the center of purple drank company decision-making... If Singed and Viktor end up being the face of Zaun next season, that could also generate some really cool conflicts. Agreed! I'm putting money on my boy Viktor generating the next big political shift after Jinx's radical conclusion; and I don't think he will forget King Jayce unwittingly going full Trump/Netanyahu on him.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:23
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At the beginning of Arcane, a bombing causes the bourgeoisie to panic and demand that somebody get punished to make them feel better. Carry that forward to something that might parallel the September 11 attacks, and things might be about to get REALLY messed up. You could probably do some interesting stuff with all the messiness of a civil war and the War on Terror both squished into a single state at the same time. Definitely agree that Viktor has some seriously good reasons to start considering a more radical engagement with the problems of the day. He's gotten plenty of experience seeing how little of a difference more efficient labor made in regular people's well-being. He's seen that the undercity has been able to make actual demands once it grows in power. And finally, if he's aware of how Jayce negotiated with Silco towards the end, I'd say he's got really compelling reasons to cut ties right then and there. Jayce put personal grudges front and center, he didn't bother thinking ahead to how this sweeping treaty would actually change things, and he based the whole thing on threats of overwhelming force... that is not a recipe for any kind of lasting or stable settlement. As a person, Jinx is a huge jerk. But as a political actor, her actions might have been necessary to shake things up enough to maybe get people to consider that a different future was possible. Now, let's take a hypothetical: what if Jayce got what he wanted, had the famous terrorist dragged in and punished for being the savior of the undercity? That sounds a whole lot like a martyr/folk hero that could inspire a whole culture of imitators to me. This whole political mess is fascinating from numerous different angles. I'm really happy the studio is taking their time with next season, because if they put in the same amount of care Season 2 could be absolutely amazing through both character and political focused framing.
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Feb 3, 2022 01:42
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Rarity posted:Yeah it's time to have a much more important discussion. I think next season the punchy lady and the shooty lady should kiss on the mouth Open mouth or do we save that for season 3?
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Feb 3, 2022 02:20
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Asema posted:Cool have this suggestion next: Shut up for a bit so the thread isn't doing the same conversation for 20 more pages how bout you stop bitching about some neat posts you dont have to read
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Feb 3, 2022 02:32
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i'm gonna blow up the thread with little robot things
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Feb 3, 2022 03:01
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precious
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Mazerunner posted:how bout you stop bitching about some neat posts you dont have to read Turning this thread into a cinema discusso level mess isn’t what I would call neat posts personally. There’s nothing wrong with the discussion inherently, and Arcane does have something to say about class struggle. But the hard full only the class struggle narrative means anything level of stuff is the sort of thing that makes say, the MCU conversation in CD pretty unbearable at times. I’m all for interesting interpretations and discussions. I do not think Kveezy’s posting is actually either of those things and stifles conversation by making the entire thread about their nonsense.
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Feb 3, 2022 03:13
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What's Silco's Plan?
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Feb 3, 2022 03:46
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Torchlighter posted:What's Silco's Plan? He places his plan in a nicely formatted letter directly to Jayce in episode 9. avoraciopoctules posted:At the beginning of Arcane, a bombing causes the bourgeoisie to panic and demand that somebody get punished to make them feel better. Carry that forward to something that might parallel the September 11 attacks, and things might be about to get REALLY messed up. You could probably do some interesting stuff with all the messiness of a civil war and the War on Terror both squished into a single state at the same time. This entire post is excellent, with a bunch of interesting things opened up to dive into; but to start with I bolded for emphasis the parts above because it makes me recall my favorite Jayce 'full mask off' moment: Today, I got a glimpse of what war between us might look like. Your people wouldn't stand a chance. The Council couldn't care less. I'm trying to save you from annihilation. - Jayce I have plans on Afghanistan that if I wanted to win that war, Afghanistan would be wiped off the face of the Earth. It would be gone. It would be over in -- literally in ten days. And I don't want to do -- I don't want to go that route - Trump
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Feb 3, 2022 03:52
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KVeezy3 posted:He places his plan in a nicely formatted letter directly to Jayce in episode 9. Jayce legitimately is offering Silco everything he wants because Jayce actually doesn't want to hurt people he wants to help people, he's fully accepted that no the Council can't help Zaun and that going to war would only cause more death, he's reached Vandar's pov in the first three episodes from the other end and is using his own version of the deal to stop a war. The idea that somehow this is a mask off to present him as similar to Trump (who is a populist who intentionally incited revolution when he didn't get his way) is baffling.
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Feb 3, 2022 04:00
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KVeezy3 posted:He places his plan in a nicely formatted letter directly to Jayce in episode 9. That's not a plan: That's demands. What, exactly, is the plan that Silco, as Head of the Revolution, has to gain independance for Zaun from Piltover? I would think that a show about revolution would care about that.
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Feb 3, 2022 04:07
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Torchlighter posted:That's not a plan: That's demands. What, exactly, is the plan that Silco, as Head of the Revolution, has to gain independance for Zaun from Piltover? I would think that a show about revolution would care about that. The demands include national self-determination that unites all of the underclass far beyond Vander's best hopes, world-class tax-free trade routes, access to their own labor/resources, and formal recognition by a massive world power. Lord_Magmar posted:Jayce legitimately is offering Silco everything he wants because Jayce actually doesn't want to hurt people he wants to help people, he's fully accepted that no the Council can't help Zaun and that going to war would only cause more death, he's reached Vandar's pov in the first three episodes from the other end and is using his own version of the deal to stop a war. The idea that somehow this is a mask off to present him as similar to Trump (who is a populist who intentionally incited revolution when he didn't get his way) is baffling. To quote Palpatine: Jayce is the Council — his presence over the rest of the ruling class was established once they became economically/politically reliant on his technology. The idea that he has literally no other way to help the underclass is an even bigger joke.
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Feb 3, 2022 04:14
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KVeezy3 posted:The demands include national self-determination that unites all of the underclass far beyond Vander's best hopes, world-class tax-free trade routes, access to their own labor/resources, and formal recognition by a massive world power. Stop dodging the question, or if you're still confused, let me reword: How does Silco plan to achieve his demands/goals? If the show is, in your own words, about class warfare, why is the basic means of achieving victory in the class war not shown? Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 04:29
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Torchlighter posted:Stop dodging the question, or if you're still confused, let me reword: How does Silco plan to achieve his demands/goals? If the show is, in your own words, about class warfare, Silco's plan to achieve his goals is to engage in asymmetrical warfare with the previously disparate underclass united against the bourgeois class. He won this fight.
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Feb 3, 2022 04:55
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KVeezy3 posted:Silco's plan to achieve his goals is to engage in asymmetrical warfare with the previously disparate underclass united against the bourgeois class. He won this fight. No he didn’t. The fight he was planning didn’t even start. That’s why there’s the bit about him getting everything he wanted and having no idea about accepting it because it was too easy, and simultaneously too hard (the price of his demands is his daughter’s life effectively). Jayce is removing the ruling class that failed Zaun from power over Zaun, that’s his idea because it feels like the only response to him he can make. It’s one Viktor implicitly agrees with. Jayce basically accepts Zaun should rule itself instead of be beholden to the neglectful to downright abusive treatment of Piltover’s current leadership. This is also why Heim’s bit is about him actually learning more about Zaun instead of denying his own culpability for the situation. Heimerdinger goes to Zaun because he’s actually been convinced he did fail them and now wishes to find some way to make amends for his neglect.
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Feb 3, 2022 05:43
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KVeezy3 posted:Silco's plan to achieve his goals is to engage in asymmetrical warfare with the previously disparate underclass united against the bourgeois class. He won this fight. He never engaged in asymmetric warfare though. Jayce is the person who engaged, and in doing so came to the conclusion that any actual instance of war would result in Zaun losing, and that the human cost of such an event was more than he personally was willing to stomach, leading to the Parley on the bridge. A 'victory' in the sense that Silco achieves his objectives, but not one by narrative weight or thematics. A revolution won by the idea that you can do nothing and your opponents will be moved emotionally by the idea that they feel bad killing you is textbook liberal centerist 'peaceful protest' rhetoric and does not advance the argument that violent revolution is necessary. Silco himself seems entirely unwilling to engage in any warfare, constantly demanding that Jinx figure out how to weaponise the hextech before even considering the action of puttting any plan against Piltover in motion, and when Jayce says that Piltover would destroy the attempted revolt, Silco in no way attempts to argue otherwise. Is this because he doesn't agree but recognises that Jayce is giving him a victory, or is this because Silco agrees that any attempted action of violence would result in the death of his revolution? The closest thing that Silco does to asymmetic warfare is the smuggling of Shimmer into Piltover, an action that again has only one revolutionary payoff and otherwise is never mentioned again because it's narrative prupose is to both setup Caitlyns entry into the plot and place Jinx in a position to come into contact with a refined Hextech Gem, a technology that was developed in secret by Jayce and Viktor and that Silco has no way of knowing about. Jinx's thievery and subsequent bombing is an action of opportunity, planned and execture the day of by Jinx, whose entire justification at the time lies in her perceived strength and wish to live up to the ideals of Silco who preaches revolution. The action may be 'revolutionary' by consequence, but again the story very clearly frames such an action as intended by emotion, a platitude that consistently tinges every time Jinx flirts with the concept of class warfare. And that 'revolutionary payoff' that the shimmer shipment has? Is Jayce again responding in a way that makes things worse for the underclass and has no intent behind it, another situation that works out in Silco's favour without any action on his part, leaving aside that he never intended for the shipment to be discovered. If Arcane is about revolution, it is about a revolution in which no violence or warfare against the ruling class is attempted save by a girl who is ruled almost exclusively by her emotional state, where victory is won by things that you never intended breaking in your favour, and where the entire success of the venture lies on the benevolence of your ruling class feeling bad about the human cost of stopping you. That is not class warfare. That is the arc of history being long, but bending ever towards justice, a narrative of some enlightened future time, not now, but eventually, where all our ills are laid down and our greivances are answered with kindly wisdom by those who rule with benevolence. Silco should get out and vote.
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Feb 3, 2022 05:48
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Obviously, Silco did not know about the hextech gemstone technology - maybe 4 people on the planet did at that point. But once Jinx brought it to his attention, he instantaneously made it a significant part of his asymmetrical warfare plan, to the point of alienating other members of his party. And no, Jayce did not fold out of the kindness of his bleeding liberal heart, but because the violent uprising from the underclass creates national instability to the point that it creates a threat to the bourgeois class as a whole by opening it up to international invasion.
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Feb 3, 2022 05:57
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