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Jaxyon posted:You created a strawman and then proceeded with the strawman. So in that frame: What are your suggestions with Ukraine given that its safe to assume Russia's actions are not propaganda.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:41
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The Capitol Police are apparently having a busy day today. https://twitter.com/ReporterCioffi/status/1489302921892311052 Allegedly, someone sent in a threat and another person went through the metal detector with a gun. They aren't sure if they are related or if the threat is real.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They said that to support their belief that they targeted the right guy. They never claimed that he had killed the other passengers or as you said, "look how many kids got killed, that proves he actually murdered his family hisself." It is already an inexcusable fuckup and terrible, there isn't really a need to make stuff up to make it seem worse. They absolutely did suggest that additional casualties were caused by bombs in the car https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-military-investigating-kabul-drone-strike/story?id=79991451 quote:U.S. Central Command later said in a statement that it was aware of reports that as many as 10 civilians may have been killed in the strike that it said had "disrupted an imminent ISIS-K threat to the airport." Could you like, idk, read the statement at least before accusing people of making stuff up. You can just say "well I didn't read it, can you show me" if you don't know what you're talking about, it's okay.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:41
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CommieGIR posted:So in that frame: What are your suggestions with Ukraine given that its safe to assume Russia's actions are not propaganda. I'm telling you what you're doing in this discussion. I don't need to engage with this further than that.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:43
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CommieGIR posted:No, arguing that we need to fix things at home is very much a token part of isolationism, Taft struggled with this very issue. Except we really, really need to fix things at home instead of continuing ruinous spending on foreign wars. This does not mean the United States completely disengaging from the rest of the planet.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:48
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VitalSigns posted:They absolutely did suggest that additional casualties were caused by bombs in the car They never tried to claim that the drone strike on the car didn't kill the other people in the car or that the guy killed his passengers himself. They claimed that they were ISIS. The original quote you posted was in response to how they knew he was ISIS. The other civilian deaths were bystanders and not the people in the car. They did not have 12 people in the car. quote:The New York Times reported on Friday that interviews with neighbors and relatives indicated that the driver of the vehicle was not affiliated with ISIS but worked for Nutrition and Education International, a California-based NGO. quote:"We know from a variety of other means that at least one of those people that were killed was an ISIS facilitator," said Milley. "So were there others killed? Yes, there are others killed. Who they are we don't know. We'll try to sort through all that."
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Feb 3, 2022 19:50
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CommieGIR posted:Lets get the meat of the issue: How is the Us involved other than doing what we normally do: Sell weapons? I said this previously: What US units are stationed in Ukraine? Russia invading Ukraine does not require US action, especially if the Russian actions are primarily to provoke a US response. Also again, Ukraine and Ukrainians are saying they neither want or expect war. No one is saying no foreign policy they're just arguing that we shouldn't be involved in a war. Honestly I still don't understand your argument outside of wanting people to tell you you're right. Do we have a moral obligation to help? Is our hand being forced by Russia because of that? Is your point that we're most likely not really going to war and our involvement will be financial or do you think we are going to war but it's the right thing for us to do?
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Feb 3, 2022 19:54
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Nucleic Acids posted:You had specifically said we could do two things at the same time with prioritization. My point is that we are not only incapable of doing that, we cannot carry out the most basic of things taking them one at a time, so why should we be getting involved in another war right now? I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree whether or not it is possible for a nation to perform two actions at once and whether or not the US is currently capable of doing so. You will have to ask someone who thinks we should be getting involved in another war why we should though, you're talking to the wrong person here. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 19:56
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Lets just say as a thought experiment no domestic policies change but the US removes its entire international military infrastructure that is an objective good thing. I don't really see how you can have another view point unless you view the US army as a force of good in the world.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:58
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VitalSigns posted:Does murdering Russian workers who have never done me any harm make the world more safe Are the workers you're talking about the Russian soldiers invading Ukraine? Edit: typos DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 19:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Capitol Police are apparently having a busy day today. Don’t most Republican house members carry guns through metal detectors and threaten to shoot up the place on a weekly basis these days? Does anyone know where Majorie Taylor Green or Lauren Boebert are?
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Feb 3, 2022 20:00
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Solidarity with the literal imperialist troops?
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Feb 3, 2022 20:00
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Solidarity with the literal imperialist troops? Do soldiers count as the proletariat?
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Feb 3, 2022 20:01
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In other US news: Facebook is having a day. https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/status/1445103782279397384?lang=en Partially due to ad tracking blocking being the standard now for Apple devices and Metaverse basically falling flat on its face.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They never tried to claim that the drone strike on the car didn't kill the other people in the car or that the guy killed his passengers himself. They claimed that they were ISIS. The original quote you posted was in response to how they knew he was ISIS. The other civilian deaths were bystanders and the people in the car. They did not have 12 people in the car. Yeah that's what I said, they originally tried to put out the narrative that additional casualties beyond the "ISIS terrorists" in the car were killed by the car bomb detonating. There were not 7 children piled into that car, they were among the additional casualties. I think you've completely lost the thread of what you were trying to argue. They said everyone in the car (including the three kids who got in to help park that they didn't know about) were terrorists, and blamed 'additional casualties' on the victim supposedly having bombs in the car. That happened.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:05
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A lot of the Russian troops are conscripts right? That at least makes them less morally culpable than American soldiers who are actively participating in the imperial global hegemon
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Feb 3, 2022 20:06
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Are the workers you're talking about gete the Russian soldiers invading Ukraine? Yes. I don't see why I should be murdering another country's conscripts, just because they speak a different language? Or should I be murdering American troops as well, they invade other countries too. Herstory Begins Now posted:Solidarity with the literal imperialist troops? Yes now you're getting it. British and German troops playing football in Christmas 1914 had more in common with each other than with the princes and ministers and generals telling them to murder each other, can you not see that? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:07
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VitalSigns posted:Yes now you're getting it. Yes but those German troops still obeyed the orders to invade. So, likely will, the Russian conscripts. If there was a conscript uprising against the obviously aggressive order to invade another country, maybe you'd have a point? But otherwise: come an invasion they are obeying orders and failing to speak up about it. This feels more like a "Root of human issues" thing than a geopolitical one. The recognition that nearly all war is futile and wrong, which nobody would disagree with. But the actions still happen. The orders remain followed. This is dangerously close to absolving soldiers of following illegal orders because they did their duty. German soldiers in the trenches still entered and attempted to overthrow France. That was the order of the day. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:12
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Terminal autist posted:A lot of the Russian troops are conscripts right? That at least makes them less morally culpable than American soldiers who are actively participating in the imperial global hegemon Are Russian soldiers not free to disobey illegal orders just like any other human being on the planet? It seems to me that any troop, Russian or American, is free to say "this is an illegal war and I will not participate" and face whatever consequences for doing the right and Just thing.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:13
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Terminal autist posted:A lot of the Russian troops are conscripts right? That at least makes them less morally culpable than American soldiers who are actively participating in the imperial global hegemon Not the ones stationed at the border. Conscription only lasts for 12 months, they don't use troops who have had only a few months experience in conflicts, you can avoid it in a lot of ways, and the President can limit or waive it. As of 2017, only 11% of people required to serve for conscription actually ended up serving any time and conscripts are mostly used as a "national service" force. Russia has been trying to professionalize their military since the early 2000's. According to Google, they started officially winding down conscription in various ways in 2006, but they were trying to make it a career earlier than that.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:14
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CommieGIR posted:Yes but those German troops still obeyed the orders to invade. So, likely will, the Russian conscripts. What? Many people would argue that war isn't futile or wrong, that's why they go to war. By your own arguments Putin currently thinks war is loving awesome because it's how you get land and resources.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:15
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VitalSigns posted:Yes now you're getting it. I heard a story once about how some Nazis tried to do this again in WW2 but the Americans weren't having it and ended up stealing some of their stuff. I've never been sure if it's true or not.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:16
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Gumball Gumption posted:What? Many people would argue that war isn't futile or wrong, that's why they go to war. By your own arguments Putin currently thinks war is loving awesome because it's how you get land and resources. Putin likely feels overthrowing Ukraine would be a huge propaganda win. But much to VitalSigns point: That doesn't make the Russian conscripts evil. But it also does not absolve them of following the orders to invade a country. Worth noting I said 'Nearly all war' not just 'All War' CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:16
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CommieGIR posted:Yes but those German troops still obeyed the orders to invade. So, likely will, the Russian conscripts. Bertrand Russell I think had a good quote about how the average Englishman reacted with bemusement and mild contempt for the squabbles of minor nations, and could easily observe how ridiculous it all was that thousands upon thousands of Serbs and Croats were murdering each other over territorial feuds whose outcome clearly couldn't be worse for the average grunt than the war itself. But if you asked them to apply the same reasoning to England versus Germany the same people are incapable of understanding it and would scoff "but the Germans actually are evil" and "English pride is on the line" or whatever and vice versa of course. I suppose your average Serb in 1908 or whenever would react the same way "we can't stop killing Croats look how bad they are". I'll have to find it, it was pretty good. He also got imprisoned for speaking out against the senseless slaughter of WW1, and I think his way of thinking was probably better for the world than the people on both sides saying another 200,000 boys have to be put through the meatgrinder because the English/Germans were so bad for following orders to murder us Germans/English
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Feb 3, 2022 20:21
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But the orders were obeyed, nonetheless. Regardless of the common soldiers recognition of the futility if not outright evil of it all. I think that's part of the issue: Both side's common soldiers were fairly aware of the futility of it all, had they basically said "enough is enough" they could've ended the war. But that almost never happens. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:23
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nine-gear crow posted:Don’t most Republican house members carry guns through metal detectors and threaten to shoot up the place on a weekly basis these days? Does anyone know where Majorie Taylor Green or Lauren Boebert are? It looks like there were three separate things. 1) Someone called in a threat. 2) Someone walked through the metal detector with a gun (but, they left to go put it away afterwards) 3) Some construction workers accidentally set off an alarm. All three of them happening (plus, the bomb threat guy who parked in front of the Supreme Court coming back) at once convinced them to evacuate the building and shut it down while they investigated. https://twitter.com/ReporterCioffi/status/1489311489257361408
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Feb 3, 2022 20:28
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CommieGIR posted:But the orders were obeyed, nonetheless. Regardless of the common soldiers recognition of the futility if not outright evil of it all. That's literally also what Vitalsigns is saying. That the common soldiers and those arguing that war is necessary or inevitably would be in a better position if they recognized what they had in common. Dude you do not make arguments or have discussions, you just kind of act like a wet blanket and go "ahh yes but the reality of the situation". You're not helping generate discussion of what could happen or how things could be better.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:28
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VitalSigns posted:Yes. This is quite the spicy take. By this logic, people being colonized should do nothing to resist because, after all, these imperialist soldiers are workers too! Do you think that Germans invading France in WW1 should have been welcomed? Allowed to take control? I think you're either trolling, or you haven't actually thought through what you're saying and carried it to its logical conclusion. You can have empathy for conscripts without declaring that the shouldn't be shot at when they are literally invading. And the answer to "what about the American troops  ??" is a a resounding yes. Do you think the Vietnamese should have avoided shooting the invading American troops because they were conscripts?RBA Starblade posted:I heard a story once about how some Nazis tried to do this again in WW2 but the Americans weren't having it and ended up stealing some of their stuff. I've never been sure if it's true or not. If only the Americans had stood in solidarity with the Nazi soldiers who were, after all, conscripts, and just let them invade. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:29
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Gumball Gumption posted:That's literally also what Vitalsigns is saying. That the common soldiers and those arguing that war is necessary or inevitably would be in a better position if they recognized what they had in common. I fully understand what Vitalsigns is saying, what I am saying is it changes nothing. The orders will be obeyed. Vitalsigns is arguing that the conflict isn't worth it, but that does not make Russia's actions and possible invasion excusable and okay because we need to avoid harming Russian conscripts. Its bordering on rehabilitating invading armies because "They are human too!" in which case we'd be dangerously close to justifying some very bad things only because the people who did said bad things may not have been wholly willing participants. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 20:30
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CommieGIR posted:I fully understand what Vitalsigns is saying, what I am saying is it changes nothing. The orders will be obeyed. Vitalsigns is arguing that the conflict isn't worth it, but that does not make Russia's actions and possible invasion excusable and okay because we need to avoid harming Russian conscripts. I think you guys are arguing about two different things and talking past each other. Also, any forces who actually invade aren't going to be conscripts.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:31
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The Russian e: thank you for the elaboration, Leon.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:32
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I think you guys are arguing about two different things and talking past each other. The Wehrmacht was majority conscripts during both the invasion of Poland and the invasion of France. But yes, in Russia's case, only 11% are conscripts, the vast majority are willing participants.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:34
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CommieGIR posted:I fully understand what Vitalsigns is saying, what I am saying is it changes nothing. The orders will be obeyed. Vitalsigns is arguing that the conflict isn't worth it, but that does not make Russia's actions and possible invasion excusable and okay because we need to avoid harming Russian conscripts. The edits where you then make a bunch of guesses about the other person's actual evil intentions also suck. Stop assuming people are secret isolationists and justifying war crimes and invasions because they don't want war.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:The edits where you then make a bunch of guesses about the other person's actual evil intentions also suck. Stop assuming people are secret isolationists and justifying war crimes and invasions because they don't want war. That's not even remotely what I am doing? I am not arguing Vitalsigns WANTS any of this.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:35
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CommieGIR posted:Its bordering on rehabilitating invading armies because "They are human too!" It's not bordering this, it is this. I want to hear about how the Vietnamese were in the wrong for shooting invading American conscripts.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:36
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It's not bordering this, it is this. Ukrainian people are not wrong to defend themselves; the two empires that are trying to turn this into a proxy war are wrong to do so. It was also wrong for the empires of the Cold War era to involve themselves in Vietnam.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It's not bordering this, it is this. The working classes of two peoples at war are always the victims of that war: no war but class war.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:48
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Majorian posted:Ukrainian people are not wrong to defend themselves; the two empires that are trying to turn this into a proxy war are wrong to do so. It was also wrong for the empires of the Cold War era to involve themselves in Vietnam. I agree. That isn't Vital Signs' argument. selec posted:The working classes of two peoples at war are always the victims of that war: no war but class war. Sure. Should the Vietnamese have avoided killing American conscripts out of class solidarity?
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Feb 3, 2022 20:48
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The American remake of Squid Games is a lot less creative. https://twitter.com/artnet/status/1488945096192143368 quote:This morning, joggers in New York’s Central Park may have come across a curious, rather illustrious sight. A cube composed of 186 kilograms of pure 24-karat gold, conceived by the German artist Niclas Castello who has billed it as a conceptual “socle du monde” (base of the world) sculpture for our time, was wheeled out to the Naumburg Bandshell this morning at around 5 a.m.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:50
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I agree. That isn't Vital Signs' argument. No, because they were at home when we showed up. American conscripts shooting their officers or just dodging the draft were morally just though. Ideally American soldiers would have gone on strike.
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Feb 3, 2022 20:50
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