Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

There's a whole thing where a lot of the terms that native groups actually end up preferring for themselves don't actually jive with the terms that outsiders prefer to call them out of want to be politically correct. There's a whole thing over the term "indian". I guess there's a similar thing over how the term "Latinx" keeps getting shopped around as a sensitive way of referring to hispanics by implying that their languages are intrinsically immoral. Although later generations seem more open to the concept.

# ? Feb 3, 2022 15:25

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# ? May 18, 2024 18:51

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

PittTheElder posted:

Then there's an additional split in the Arctic; within Canada the term Eskimo is seen as an outdated slur, but I believe the groups within Alaska still use it as a generic high level term for themselves.

Similarly, many Yupik and Aleut don't like being called 'Inuit', because the 'Inuit' are a specific group.

# ? Feb 3, 2022 18:55

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Tunicate posted:

The preferred terms are (as one would expect) very different region-by-region, and there's some backlash against Westerners trying to come up with a new euphemism that lumps together (for instance) people in the Great Plains with Australia and the Arctic circle as a homogeneous blob.

Yup. There's no agreed upon terminology anywhere. Best you can do is try not to be an rear end in a top hat about it.

# ? Feb 3, 2022 19:35

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Weka posted:

Would you care to go into this more? 'Round here that's how indigenous people tend to refer to their top level organizations when using English.

Caveat: I am not a North American indigenous person.

Some indigenous people are reclaiming words like "tribe", or "Indian" or "native", but that doesn't mean that it's OK for settlers to use those terms. This is similar to black Americans reclaiming some racial slurs.

And I mean, it's hard to go wrong with "indigenous people" or "indigenous peoples", and to be more specific about particular peoples where you can (Cree, Musqueam, etc). If there's a word that's potentially problematic but is a self-given title by an indigenous person, I'd probably use it, but with hesitation?

PeterCat posted:

Really? Cause I got bitched out on SA for using "First Nations" as "nation" is apparently a European concept.

I dunno -- "nation is a European concept" is a new one to me? Like for sure European and modern US/Canadian concepts of nation, territory, bordersm etc differ significantly from the form of those concepts in traditional culture for most indigenous peoples of North America. But the term "nation" at least linguistically ascribes equal standing between Westphalian nation states and indigenous governance structures, even if that's mostly lip service.

And a lot of indigenous peoples around here do refer to themselves as First Nations -- e.g. Squamish Nation, Cheam First Nation, Tsleil-Waututh Nation. Musqueam actually seem to be an exception, in that they're still using "Musqueam Indian Band". "Band" is a pretty common term also used, with less baggage than some other terms, although it has generally fallen out of favour to "Nation".

But another wrinkle with "First Nations" (in Canada) is that sometimes people use it in place of "indigenous people", but the term doesn't include M�tis and Inuit people.

Grand Fromage posted:

Yup. There's no agreed upon terminology anywhere. Best you can do is try not to be an rear end in a top hat about it.

And this.

Edit: also "First Nations" does seem to be a fairly Canadian term, and I'd maybe be hesitant to use it in reference to indigenous peoples of what is now the US, unless in cases where it's used self-referentially.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 09:11

galagazombie: Oct 31, 2011; A silly little mouse!

Call people what they like to be called, anything else is the rankest chauvinistic paternalism dressed up as being �woke�.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 09:16

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

In the US case it is worth noting that certain legal rights and privileges are tied to the word "Indian." It is the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood, and so on. These are basically all racist institutions but they do come with things like e.g. college grant funding.

Phobophilia posted:

Yeah, my post was a huge oversimplification, but nonetheless from what I understand, the manifestation of a state exerts a gravitational pull that warps all space and energy around its orbit. The tendency of the state to redistribute resources hierarchically may render it unsustainable in the long run, but while it is extant it's Everyone's Problem. It can't be ignored, either you submit to its authority and become a part of it, run away and make yourself a PITA to govern, or manifest a rival state

In that case, this is how it looks to me:

Until quite recently states did not have a unique ability to warp their political environment in any special way. An equally populous non state actor is likely to have about the same effect, though this obviously depends considerably on the particular context - in the Eastern Zomian context, populous states were frequently overtly dependent on less populous non-state actors, and the ability of the Uyghur Khaganate to warp Tang politics with little cost to themselves is well remarked on despite the obvious population gap between them. Our mind tends to go to Egypt and Rome who generally had overwhelming power over their non state neighbors, but that is a function of them being large and heavily armed rather than other elements of civic sophistication - we can see with great clarity that the Sumerian states had massive, complex apparatus for acquiring goods from non-state neighbors frequently from a position of weakness, and I would absolutely not say the Sumerian states were unsophisticated or not state like. They just were in a political context where they were not the biggest nor the strongest, despite being the most literate.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 14:58

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

galagazombie posted:

Call people what they like to be called, anything else is the rankest chauvinistic paternalism dressed up as being �woke�.

The weirdness at the core of most discussions over what to call native americans is that there's relatively very few of them and often there's not any around to take part in the conversation.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 15:55

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

also different people within similar or the same group have different preferences about what they want the group to be called. like if you are generically referring to my group there are people with preference for Japanese-American and people with preference for Nikkei so which is the correct non-chauvinist term to use?

edit: also, to be fair, i would find it not at all weird for another group member to refer to the group as Nikkei, but I would find it really loving weird for an outsider to refer to the group as such outside of like possibly an academic setting. group identities are weird and complex!

# ? Feb 4, 2022 17:04

Mr. Nice!: Oct 13, 2005; c-spam cannot afford

SlothfulCobra posted:

The weirdness at the core of most discussions over what to call native americans is that there's relatively very few of them and often there's not any around to take part in the conversation.

for example, the florida state seminole mascot is a-ok because it has been blessed by the seminole tribe of florida.

An astute student of history will note that no seminole was left in florida as they were forcefully relocated on foot to indian territory. The seminole tribe of florida are the white guys that run all of the "native" casinos.

e: I'm a jackass.

Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 4, 2022

# ? Feb 4, 2022 17:10

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Mr. Nice! posted:

An astute student of history will note that no seminole was left in florida as they were forcefully relocated on foot to indian territory. The seminole tribe of florida are the white guys that run all of the "native" casinos.

Not really. The Seminole of Florida are descended from Seminole who avoided relocation by fleeing into the Everglades, becoming the Cow Creek Seminole and the Miccosukee (who are now recognized as a distinct tribe)..

# ? Feb 4, 2022 17:29

galagazombie: Oct 31, 2011; A silly little mouse!

Mr. Nice! posted:

for example, the florida state seminole mascot is a-ok because it has been blessed by the seminole tribe of florida.

An astute student of history will note that no seminole was left in florida as they were forcefully relocated on foot to indian territory. The seminole tribe of florida are the white guys that run all of the "native" casinos.

Too bad for your �astute study of history� I personally know Florida Seminoles rear end in a top hat. They never left Florida because the Everglades made removing them more trouble than it was worth.
Also lol at trying to use a reverse one drop rule to kick people out of their tribes.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 19:52

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

The one where you really can set folks off are the South and North Carolina Cherokee, who are very specifically *not* recognized by the Oklahoma Cherokee, because they don't have ancestors who were on the Trail of Tears, because they refused to go / skipped out.

The whole situation of who is and isn't Native American can be a giant sad awful mess, really. See, e.g., the Rebecca Roanhorse controversy:

quote:

Roanhorse was born Rebecca Parish[1] in Conway, Arkansas in 1971.[2] Raised in northern Texas, she has said that �being a black and Native kid in Fort Worth in the �70s and �80s was pretty limiting�; thus, she turned to reading and writing, especially science fiction, as a form of escape. Her father was an economics professor, and her mother was a high school English teacher who encouraged Rebecca�s early attempts at writing stories.[6]

She was adopted as child by white parents. In a 2020 profile by Vulture Magazine, she said that at 7 years old she learned from looking at her birth certificate that she is "half-Black and half�Spanish Indian".[7] She reunited with her birth mother later in life, though they rarely speak. Roanhorse has said that she is of Ohkay Owingeh Pueblo and African American descent, though she is not an enrolled tribal member.[7] Members of the Ohkay Owingeh community have disputed her claim, saying she has no connection to their community.[8]

Roanhorse graduated from Yale University and later earned her JD degree from the University of New Mexico School of Law, specializing in Federal Indian Law and lived for several years in the Navajo Nation, where she clerked at the Navajo Supreme Court before working as an attorney.[7] She currently lives in New Mexico with her husband, who is Navajo,[9] and their daughter.

. . .

Native scholar Debbie Reese initially praised Trail of Lightning but upon learning that Roanhorse was not an enrolled tribal member, retracted the review and criticized Roanhorse for sharing ideas outside the culture and misusing sacred stories.[7] Some critics argue that because the Indigenous community that Roanhorse has claimed does not claim her, this makes her non-Indigenous;[8] others do not question her Black Indigenous heritage and have expressed concern that claims about her identity are either racist or a distraction from discussions of her work's content.[7] Others have also discussed anti-Blackness within Indigenous communities and how this may impact critiques of Roanhorse.[57] At some point in 2018, when the complaints of cultural appropriation surfaced, references to the Ohkay Owingeh were removed from her official website;[8] Roanhorse believes her mother�s family descended from Ohkay Owingeh people but is �trying to be more careful" about how she discusses it.[7]

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 4, 2022

# ? Feb 4, 2022 20:29

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3851735&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

there was an entire discussion of this, including input from native people from the americas, here. In short it is complicated and as a white guy i will always just ask if there is confusion what people want to be called, because it differs greatly from group to group

# ? Feb 4, 2022 20:33

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

That might be enough Indigenous Americans talk for the roman/ancient history thread. Unless you yourself are indigenous, it might be best to just shut the gently caress up.

Citation: I'm a painfully white dude from Oklahoma. I know indigenous people but would rather not parrot their opinions on identity and labels for them. I know my place.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 20:35

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

TipTow posted:

That might be enough Indigenous Americans talk for the roman/ancient history thread. Unless you yourself are indigenous, it might be best to just shut the gently caress up.

Citation: I'm a painfully white dude from Oklahoma. I know indigenous people but would rather not parrot their opinions on identity and labels for them. I know my place.

way to poo poo all over a respectful discussion and imply that everyone else doesn't "know their place" by simply discussing the topic at all. very helpful

# ? Feb 4, 2022 21:44

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

TipTow posted:

That might be enough Indigenous Americans talk for the roman/ancient history thread. Unless you yourself are indigenous, it might be best to just shut the gently caress up.

Citation: I'm a painfully white dude from Oklahoma. I know indigenous people but would rather not parrot their opinions on identity and labels for them. I know my place.

Link me to an indigenous history thread or go to hell

# ? Feb 4, 2022 23:22

Mr. Nice!: Oct 13, 2005; c-spam cannot afford

galagazombie posted:

Too bad for your �astute study of history� I personally know Florida Seminoles rear end in a top hat. They never left Florida because the Everglades made removing them more trouble than it was worth.
Also lol at trying to use a reverse one drop rule to kick people out of their tribes.

Epicurius posted:

Not really. The Seminole of Florida are descended from Seminole who avoided relocation by fleeing into the Everglades, becoming the Cow Creek Seminole and the Miccosukee (who are now recognized as a distinct tribe)..

I appreciate the correction. Thank you.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 23:40

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

galagazombie posted:

Call people what they like to be called, anything else is the rankest chauvinistic paternalism dressed up as being �woke�.

For sure re: calling people what they want to be called. For online discussions, it's often pretty easy to find a particular group of indigenous peoples' website with the self-descriptors used by that group.

But it's just basic courtesy and consideration to avoid using words with negative connotations to refer to indigenous people and institutions until you know the preferred descriptors.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 23:52

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

PittTheElder posted:

Link me to an indigenous history thread or go to hell

You could always start one instead of getting mad at me.

Jazerus posted:

way to poo poo all over a respectful discussion and imply that everyone else doesn't "know their place" by simply discussing the topic at all. very helpful

I apologize for backseat moderating and I wasn't eloquent in what I said. It seemed the discussion was starting to go south, and this didn't seem like a super-relevant tangent to the ancient history thread.

# ? Feb 4, 2022 23:52

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

TipTow posted:

You could always start one instead of getting mad at me.

I apologize for backseat moderating and I wasn't eloquent in what I said. It seemed the discussion was starting to go south, and this didn't seem like a super-relevant tangent to the ancient history thread.

thank god a white man showed up to fix things

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:04

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

TipTow posted:

It seemed the discussion was starting to go south, and this didn't seem like a super-relevant tangent to the ancient history thread.

it wasn't, and it doesn't matter because this thread goes all over the map honestly.

but thank you for apologizing

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:13

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Caveat: I am not a North American indigenous person.

Some indigenous people are reclaiming words like "tribe", or "Indian" or "native", but that doesn't mean that it's OK for settlers to use those terms. This is similar to black Americans reclaiming some racial slurs.

And I mean, it's hard to go wrong with "indigenous people" or "indigenous peoples", and to be more specific about particular peoples where you can (Cree, Musqueam, etc). If there's a word that's potentially problematic but is a self-given title by an indigenous person, I'd probably use it, but with hesitation?

Tribe or nation refer to specific social constructs though, ones it is useful to be able to distinguish.

E:

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

thank god a white man showed up to fix things

Lol

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:15

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

Imagined fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 5, 2022

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:30

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Jazerus posted:

it wasn't, and it doesn't matter because this thread goes all over the map honestly.

but thank you for apologizing

Seriously, this thread has to be one of the best behaved on the forums. I'm not even sure what big derails/controversies there have been other than Agesilaus' "Sparta is a model society and also I would definitely be a nobleman not some helot", and Dalael's "Atlantis was definitely real and probably in Bolivia, why won't you consider the evidence", both of which were years ago.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Feb 5, 2022

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:49

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

PittTheElder posted:

Seriously, this thread has to be one of the best behaved on the forums. I'm not even sure what big derails/controversies there have been other than Agesilaus' "Sparta is a model society and also I would definitely be a nobleman not some helot", and Dalaes' "Atlantis was definitely real and probably in Bolivia, why won't you consider the evidence", both of which were years ago.

considering a mash-up, "atlantis in bolivia was a model society and also i would definitely be a mer-nobleman, why won't you consider the evidence"

# ? Feb 5, 2022 00:57

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Bringing this back to Ancient Roman History, let's go with a loosely-translated quote from Philogelos

quote:

A poster shows up to the forum. He finds that there is a violent argument going on. Everyone is yelling and it's clear that nobody is making any headway.

"Good thing I showed up," he says, walking in. "Now I can straighten everyone out."

# ? Feb 5, 2022 01:07

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

https://twitter.com/mors_lakota/status/1039702206142763008?s=20&t=2EMBYK_xBHKvqfeSGG3lEQ

This was in the thread I linked, and sums up the minefield that can exist. Just ask people, listen, and follow suit.

# ? Feb 5, 2022 01:44

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

I guess with actual ancient cultures, since the people involved all died a thousand years ago and the modern groups are only loosely connected with their predecessors through the misty veil of time so people are less worried about exonyms. I don't think I've heard any controversies over calling like Xerxes Persian although modern Iran has made the point of getting people to call it by its endonym instead of the exonym that was traditional in the western world. (and then a lot of expats seem to prefer the exonym as maybe part of not agreeing with the Iranian government and that may be a whole thing, but it's modern history/current events)

# ? Feb 5, 2022 03:18

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

I thought Iranian was a nationality and Persian was an ethnic group.

Like there's a bunch of non-Persian Iranians. For example there's significantly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than in Azerbaijan.

# ? Feb 5, 2022 05:21

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Yeah there's loads of non-Iranian Persians to be found though history. The consequences of Persian being the prestige culture in the region for centuries.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Feb 5, 2022

# ? Feb 5, 2022 07:38

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

PittTheElder posted:

Yeah there's loads of non-Iranian Persians to be found though history. The consequences of Persian being the prestige culture in the region for centuries.

That's not what they meant--they meant (and this matches with my understanding) that Persia was a specific region and people, without the broader Iranian region. It was from this region that Cyrus the great came, thus making the Persians the most famous Iranians, and it's also where the language comes from (called Farsi, etymologically cognate with Persia)

# ? Feb 5, 2022 07:51

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

SlothfulCobra posted:

I guess with actual ancient cultures, since the people involved all died a thousand years ago and the modern groups are only loosely connected with their predecessors through the misty veil of time so people are less worried about exonyms. I don't think I've heard any controversies over calling like Xerxes Persian although modern Iran has made the point of getting people to call it by its endonym instead of the exonym that was traditional in the western world. (and then a lot of expats seem to prefer the exonym as maybe part of not agreeing with the Iranian government and that may be a whole thing, but it's modern history/current events)

I think it's also important to be careful with this, though. In the context of c̓əsnaʔəm, for a very long time, the settler narrative was something like this:

quote:

As a reporter with the Ottawa Citizen asked in 1948, �Who were these mysterious people who lived long ago at Sea Island at the mouth of the Fraser River? � They were not Indians certainly.�

https://web.archive.org/web/20171001182743/http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/bcstudies/article/download/671/716

This was despite the Musqueam Band having their main village only 5km away, and having extensive oral history of the site as being theirs.

# ? Feb 6, 2022 08:26

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

PittTheElder posted:

Yeah there seems to be a big split just across the US-Canada border too, due to their history of interaction with the colonial governments rather than any inherent difference.

Canadian indigenous groups have I think all transitioned to referring to themselves as First Nations, while I gather that in the States the term Tribe, and self identification with the term Indian is much more common.

Then there's an additional split in the Arctic; within Canada the term Eskimo is seen as an outdated slur, but I believe the groups within Alaska still use it as a generic high level term for themselves.

White canadians get almost funnily wrongwoke about the terminology here in my experience. I filled out some US paperwork or other that listed "Alaska Native" as one of the race options in college, and one of my buddies comments how racist it is they still don't say inuit.

Buddy the inuit are like two thousand miles away from Alaska.

Similarly people react to "indian" as equivalent to the n-word in US contexts when as said it's unequivocally not. It's not even among the canadian groups at least at the res I lived near, if anything more common than in the US when I lived near some in NM.* In neither case is it something you should call someone unless you know them and know it's ok. In other words, to echo the thread, be respectful and don't double down if you make a mistake.

*in mexican spanish the translation for "indian" is 100% a racial slur equivalent that you should never ever say

# ? Feb 6, 2022 19:52

Mr Havafap: Mar 27, 2005; The wurst kind of sausage

Exterior, slow day at the arena

Youth Looking for Purpose: Hey are you non-Persian Iranians??
Group Leader: What!? Are we non-Persian Iranians? No, we're non-Iranian Persians you dolt. Non-Persian Iranians, really..
Group Member: What happened to Farsi-speaking non-iranian non-Persians?
GL: He's sitting over there.
ALL: Splitter!

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:15

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

I have two kinda random questions but I think at least the first relates to Rome, if only due to pop culture.

1. Where does the popular image of the Emperor lounging with women fanning him with leaves and feeding him grapes come form?

2. The Roman Empire extended into Africa, which I mainly know because of St Augustine. But it feels to me like African and European history is only really talked about much way, way later with colonization and "scramble for Africa" and stuff. So why did Europeans ignore Africa for like a 1000 years? Did we actually have no real contact with them or is that just my poor general history?

# ? Feb 10, 2022 05:31

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

NikkolasKing posted:

I have two kinda random questions but I think at least the first relates to Rome, if only due to pop culture.

1. Where does the popular image of the Emperor lounging with women fanning him with leaves and feeding him grapes come form?

2. The Roman Empire extended into Africa, which I mainly know because of St Augustine. But it feels to me like African and European history is only really talked about much way, way later with colonization and "scramble for Africa" and stuff. So why did Europeans ignore Africa for like a 1000 years? Did we actually have no real contact with them or is that just my poor general history?

North Africa was never really "ignored". Even into the modern period it was a core part of the Ottoman Empire. The Saharan desert is a barrier preventing extensive contact--but the Mediterranean is a highway. Rome had all of north Africa but didn't extend subsaharan at all

# ? Feb 10, 2022 05:38

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

NikkolasKing posted:

2. The Roman Empire extended into Africa, which I mainly know because of St Augustine. But it feels to me like African and European history is only really talked about much way, way later with colonization and "scramble for Africa" and stuff. So why did Europeans ignore Africa for like a 1000 years? Did we actually have no real contact with them or is that just my poor general history?

rome extended into the parts of africa that europeans did continue to interface with - north africa including egypt. obviously religious differences were something of a barrier there but there was plenty of contact both friendly and hostile. the colonization/scramble for africa stuff refers to sub-saharan africa, which the ancient mediterranean world only had a few incidental encounters with as far as we know

# ? Feb 10, 2022 05:40

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

European colonization did, of course, include north africa though, even if it wasn't part of the scramble proper

# ? Feb 10, 2022 05:41

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Unless I'm totally misremembering, sailing up and down the west side of Africa is really hard. It took a lot of technological innovations before it could be done with any regularity, and even then it required swinging way out into the Atlantic (IIRC going too far on one of these swings was how the Portuguese ended up finding Brazil) so you needed proper seaworthy ships that the Romans just didn't have. That combined with the Sahara made much of sub-Saharan Africa just inaccessible. We do have records of Roman expeditions across the desert, there was gold coming in trade caravans across from somewhere out there and they were interested in it. One of them reached what sounds like the Niger River. But these were just explorations and nothing really came of it. Even with Roman logistics the idea of sending and supplying armies across the Sahara to conquer something on the other side was probably impossible.

The east coast is a different story, the Mediterranean world was trading all along it down to around Madagascar. East Africa was well-integrated into the Indian Ocean trade and remained so until the Portuguese showed up and disrupted everything. Europeans weren't involved with that much after the Islamic expansion since why would you let the Europeans through to trade directly when instead you could be the middleman and take a nice cut? The trade didn't stop, it just went through intermediaries rather than Romans heading down to the markets of Zanzibar themselves.

# ? Feb 10, 2022 06:01

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# ? May 18, 2024 18:51

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

There's also a seemingly reliable story in Herodotus about the Egyptians sending a ship around the cape of south Africa. It seems reliable because the sailors reported that at noon, the sun was to their north--which makes Herodotus dismiss the story as obvious bunk, but we know is perfectly consistent with them being in the southern hemisphere, and not the kind of detail you'd randomly make up if the voyage wasn't real.

# ? Feb 10, 2022 06:03

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