|
I'm so glad I got linked to this thread, this is a real 16" banger lol
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
One thing I've been idly noting is that plunging shellfire seems more effective here than it really should be - at least in a few recent cases. To take the Iowa vs. Rodney matchup, Iowa scored both deck penetrations at ~28km and a topside penetration of Rodney's #3 turret at ~25km. For the deck, it's harder to say for sure, since deck armor tends to vary in thickness, but over the vital spaces it should have been ~6 or so inches thick. For the turret, it's over 7 inches of armor on top. Which is fine and well, but let's look at the armor penetration performance of the 16"/50 Mk 7. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php The deck armor penetration seems reasonable, because at ~28km the Mk 7 has about 6.6 inches of penetration, but the turret penetration is a lot more shaky. At ~25km it should only be penetrating around 5.5-6 inches of armor, not the 7.25 inches needed to penetrate the topside of Rodney's turrets (in fact it'd need to be landing. It's possible the game models weak points in that kind of armor due to holes cut in it for various purposes or the like, so luck may play a factor, but in general it shouldn't be getting that kind of penetration. Unless the shot was from significantly further - around the 30-31km range, which might be possible. Something to remember here is that the specialization of the Mark 8 SHS was deck penetrations too, so Iowa's deck penetration characteristics should be just about the best there are. This is relevant because.... Littorio scored a deck armor penetration at sub-30km on Yamato. I have no clue how this would have been doable, given Yamato has deck armor 8 to 9 inches thick, and Littorio's guns (this one: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_15-50_m1934.php) have much worse vertical penetration of deck armor than Iowa's.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 01:10
|
|
|
Littorio: max mark for elan
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
Saint Celestine posted:Not much too it. Ship blew up, then they salvaged it after the war. Thank you so much! It's got a real Simon Stalenhag vibe. Or, vice versa I guess
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 02:13
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:Yamato's main guns had AA shells: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell) They were not good at anti-aircraft fire but they were ruinous at bombarding softer targets. Which is something the Japanese realized and used against Henderson Field.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 06:35
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:This can't be real. It's from some science fiction work that flew under the radar, somehow. Surely. yeah, it's a drat amazing pic
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 09:30
|
|
|
TheDemon posted:They were not good at anti-aircraft fire but they were ruinous at bombarding softer targets. Which is something the Japanese realized and used against Henderson Field. Honest question, I don’t know the answer—what made them better than regular HE for that? Thinner shell walls? Bigger spread from the incendiary material?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 10:46
|
|
|
So for shits and giggles, I worked out the muzzle energy for the 16" Iowa guns firing the super heavy AP rounds. A .50BMG round with standard FMJ ammunition has 13,350 ft.lb of muzzle energy. A 16" MK8 AP round has 262,405,004 ft.lb of muzzle energy. Something that heavy moving that fast hits loving HARD.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 13:04
|
|
|
God speed Littorio that was a better fight than I would ever have expected. o7
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 14:12
|
|
|
Ferremit posted:So for shits and giggles, I worked out the muzzle energy for the 16" Iowa guns firing the super heavy AP rounds. Both the North Carolina and South Dakota classes could fire it, too, but at a slower speed. Still absolutely nasty as the Nelson found out. e: mk 7 gun was the basis for this insanity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP or let's use a gun to launch poo poo into space (they actually succeeded). They also made the W23 shell. You're now imagining the Iowa firing a broadside of 9 Little Boys. iospace fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Feb 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 15:32
|
|
|
Pirate Radar posted:Honest question, I don’t know the answer—what made them better than regular HE for that? Thinner shell walls? Bigger spread from the incendiary material? IIRC it was the combination of decent time-delayed fuzes that allowed for precise-ish air bursts and the mixture between lots of frag and incendiary material.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 15:47
|
|
|
I know theyre time-fuzed and rather sophisticated But for some reason the first impression after Reading the contents of the star shells is an image of ye olde blunderbuss loaded with random silverware and metal objects.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 16:28
|
|
|
TheDemon posted:They were not good at anti-aircraft fire but they were ruinous at bombarding softer targets. Which is something the Japanese realized and used against Henderson Field. Actually there were probably the most effective anti aircraft shell ever, just only if the aircraft in question was parked on a runway in reach of the guns. Pirate Radar posted:Honest question, I don’t know the answer—what made them better than regular HE for that? Thinner shell walls? Bigger spread from the incendiary material? They were not high capacity shells at all, they were incendiary shrapnel. So a normal high capacity shell, due to the extreme forces involved in being fired out of a giant gun, had really very little explosive filler and giant, thick walls. More importantly they were impact fused, meaning that at the velocity they are moving they will bury themselves deeply into whatever they hit, resulting in most of the explosive force and fragments going upwards rather than outwards. The beehive rounds had timed fuses for use against air targets, but they could just as well be adjusted to make them work like the shrapnel rounds of WW1. The 18" rounds from the Yamato class were never used for this role, but if they had been each round with it's 900 incendiary tubes and 600 steel strips coming out at a 20 degree arc would be utterly devastating to any soft target in her range. I would imagine they would have also hosed up destroyers pretty badly if used against them too. Pharnakes fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Feb 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
Ferremit posted:So for shits and giggles, I worked out the muzzle energy for the 16" Iowa guns firing the super heavy AP rounds. Can you give a visual or descriptive example of how hard that is... Even if you somehow converted the units to metric... I still wouldn't comprehend how hard the gun hit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:30
|
|
|
Jesenjin posted:Can you give a visual or descriptive example of how hard that is... Well, according to the armor penetration data posted earlier, the Mk8 AP round could go through 27 inches of steel at 10km, or 27 FEET of reinforced concrete at the same range.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:35
|
|
|
From the first time I saw the bracket laid out, our last quarterfinal match was one I'd been enthusiastically anticipating. HMS Vanguard and Richelieu are, I think, unquestionably the finest battleships produced by European powers. They're also incredibly closely matched in every way that really matters. Vanguard has slightly thicker belt armor, and is built with better steel. Richelieu has slightly thicker deck armor, and significantly better turret and con armor. Vanguard's cyclic rate is a hair better. Richelieu's shells are a hair heavier (note: the differences here were so slight I did not try to include them in the ship models). Rich's guns shoot marginally harder, but Vanguard's accuracy at long range is elite. Rich is slightly faster, but Vanguard is incredibly stable in the water. Basically, this is a tossup. Neither ship is going to be able to rip the other apart easily, so I think this will come down to who either 1) hits the con or main tower first, or 2) hits a turret first. Vanguard's con is much more vulnerable, but Rich only having two turrets -- despite them being incredibly well-armored -- means that losing one probably means she loses the match.  TO ARMS  (SALUTES)  Vanguard's long range shooting is characteristically brilliant, and she puts a hole in Rich just ahead of her main deck at a range of 31.1km. I'm not sure, but that might be the longest shot of the tournament so far.  Rich responds with a hit at around 27km. One of the features of Rich's configuration is when she hits with one shell, she tends to hit with another. This was two shells simultaneously into Vanguard's midsection.  Mark this down. The two ships trade long range shots off one anothers belts, and do little damage. Rich, however, takes a pop at her waterline, and suffers some minor flooding amidships. This will eventually shape much of how the rest of this battle plays out.  Vanguard scores the first serious hit of the match. These are two very fast ships, and they closed range with one another very, very quickly. This is from only around 16km -- she puts two shells into Rich amidships, damaging an engine and increasing flooding in this critical area of the ship.  Shortly after, Rich scores what I predicted as a critical hit: she destroys Vanguard's con and main tower, killing her captain and probably much of her command crew. Vanguard is staggered and does not fire or turn for some time, and suffers a huge penalty to her gunnery. I thought to myself very literally "well, that's pretty much that" after seeing this hit.  Vanguard is made of some real starch. They get the fires under control and resume fighting. The range is so close (around 10km), and her base accuracy so excellent, that the loss of so much fire control capability does not prove fatal. In fact, she keeps punching Rich with nearly the same frequency as before. Aside from the damage to the con and tower, Vanguard is really in quite great shape.  Rich looks to be in pretty fine trim here, but what you can't see are several major holes just below the waterline. Vanguard has punched them, and seawater is rushing in. Rich loses a lot of engine power, and several compartments amidships are sealed off and essentially lost to the ocean.  A better view of Rich's problems. Flooding hasn't been a huge deal for the newer ships due to their advanced flood control and compartmentalization, but this is very, very dangerous.  Vanguard's taken a beating, but she's still fighting effectively. The two ships are now inside 10km, and are pumping salvoes into each other's belts with a lot of enthusiasm.  Rich takes yet another hit amidships. She's lost most of her engine power and is in serious danger of foundering if they can't stop the flooding.  Vanguard evens the score. She blows out Rich's con. This is now anyone's game. Vanguard has taken a lot more damage and is suffering badly topside, but Rich has massive flooding problems. Both captains are dead, and we're laid alongside one another at pistol shot. Someone rings the bell to start the 15th and final round.  Vanguard is hit simultaneously with SIX 15" shells. The structural damage is surprisingly light, but she has to deal with fires all along her length. She's still floating and fighting, but she's getting closer and closer to irreparable damage.  As bad as things are topside for Vanguard, Rich might be even worse off beneath. She develops a significant list -- which as we've seen, is often the last symptom we see before a ship founders.  It is almost cinematic -- Rich seems to know she can't take any more hits to her broadside, and so decides to YOLO it...she turns straight towards Vanguard. Good thing she has the gun configuration to make this a pretty dangerous position.  Vanguard, then, has technically crossed Rich's T. Neither ship is moving very fast anymore, but as they close the range, every hit is going to have the possibility to end this thing.  Rich charges Vanguard. Both ships are in serious danger of sinking. At this point, it is pretty much whomever lands the big multi-shell blow in a vulnerable spot.  Rich lands the last big hit. She puts a four round salvo through Vanguard's belt at a range inside 5km. Vanguard breaks apart. Best fight of the tournament for me. Two of the best ships in the field, both fighting with great skill and elan, with the victor pulling this out by maybe one salvo. A fitting end to centuries-worth of line-of-battle contests between the British and French navies.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:37
|
|
|
Updated bracket: Only the best of the best are left as we head to the final four. I feel like Rich will struggle mightily with Yamato, but Iowa/SoDak is a borderline tossup.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
Glad Rich won. Hoping for an upset vs Yamato, since it struggled a bit with Littorio, and all forward is kind of ideal for punching up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
Bewbies, I just want to say thanks again for doing this. I am loving this thread.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:53
|
|
|
I wonder how things would go if Richelieu had stayed pointed toward Vanguard the whole time? Less damage overall, or more shells being focused on the forward turrets meaning a higher chance for a knocked out turret and/or bridge? I don't feel like a close range broadside will work as well against Yamato.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
Amazing fight
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
Welp, honorary tournament win for Richie here. After knocking out the last of the British, anything more is just a bonus. 
Magni fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Feb 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 18:11
|
|
|
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE70jrhOrjk
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
Jesenjin posted:Can you give a visual or descriptive example of how hard that is... Imagine a Hummvee with a .50 cal machine gun on it. If it shoots you that's 13,350 ft.lb of energy. It weighs approximately 3500 kg at max gross weight and has a top speed of 90 kph (55 mph) at that weight. To have 262,405,004 ft.lb it would have to be traveling 405 meters per second. So getting hit by a 16" shell is like getting hit by the hummvee itself at mach 1.3. I know that's not actually a really good mental image either because it's tricky getting a car to 1.3 times the speed of sound, but that's roughly in the range of faster pistol bullets. Pirate Radar posted:Honest question, I don’t know the answer—what made them better than regular HE for that? Thinner shell walls? Bigger spread from the incendiary material? An HE shell is going to dig into the ground, make a crater, and if that crater happens to be where something important was that's a huge headache. Takeoffs where you're dodging craters suck. The incendiary rounds can be set to airburst and cover the area with burning incendiaries, which is bad for flammable things like planes and all sorts of support infrastructure, especially avgas and munitions. Personally I think they're somewhat complimentary but the damage from incendiaries did a lot more to make Henderson field's capabilities marginal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 18:27
|
|
|
heck of a fight 1, 2, 3 and 5 in the semis. good bracket
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 18:28
|
|
|
Zorak of Michigan posted:Bewbies, I just want to say thanks again for doing this. I am loving this thread.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:01
|
|
|
Here's to hoping the Richelieu does an upset and wins against Yamato.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:04
|
|
|
Holy hell that was cinematic as anyone could have asked for, I think. Some drat good fights this tourney.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
Bote Bote Bote Bote BOTE BOTE BOTE BOTE
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
Vive la France!
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
Man, what is it with SA LPs and getting the Royal Navy sunk? A good fight!
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:38
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 20:37
|
|
|
ilmucche posted:heck of a fight Dang, that's almost exactly how an ideal competition would be laid out, with the "best" meeting up in the final.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 20:48
|
|
|
holy shiiiiiiiit
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 21:39
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 22:16
|
|
|
Why did the USA name all their ships after landlocked states
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 22:27
|
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Why did the USA name all their ships after landlocked states it was a clever ruse
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 22:28
|
|
|
ChubbyChecker posted:it was a clever ruse "USS Iowa? What are they gonna do, corn husk us to death?" Just an amazing thread. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 22:44
|
|
|
What a battle that was. There have been some really good battles the last few days.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 23:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Why did the USA name all their ships after landlocked states I mean, they didn't? It's just that the Iowa-class mostly ended up as landlocked states due to chance - but even there exists New Jersey. Maryland and California were on Battleship Row. The North Carolina-class was North Carolina and Washington. Etc., etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 23:27
|
|