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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Gotta say I did find it kinda odd that in the 6.0 dungeon that's supposed to be the grand tour reminiscing on everyone who's gone since the start of the game... Giving him a boss slot seemed pretty outsized in terms of his importance to the plot lol cape westwind (hard) is the most endwalker possible thing. The whole expansion is Everyone Is Here, and that icnludes that random nobody you beat up in 30 seconds 8 years ago
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Feb 5, 2022 00:35
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Badger of Basra posted:Doesn’t the lich in delubrum use that model? In the same way that Omega is a gigantoad, yes. Same skeleton and animations, different model and textures. But the final mob of the Aitiascope is Nybeth in the same way that a luncheon toad is a gigantoad, he is EXACTLY the same except slightly greyer, right down to the scraggly beard and bandana.
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Feb 5, 2022 00:41
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https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1489499311909982211?t=Tf2hOQqpqgPG5I7kLxoZdw&s=19
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Feb 5, 2022 00:47
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thetoughestbean posted:Interesting observation but that ain’t Hermes’s deal, it’s mostly Amon’s. Hermes had some novel ideas, re: space and bird daughters Yes, but it's still the same soul suffering the same traumas.
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Feb 5, 2022 00:51
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Was the thing of the ascians turning into aether ever explained? Did they kill themselves like the warriors of darkness?
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Feb 5, 2022 01:10
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CJ posted:Was the thing of the ascians turning into aether ever explained? Did they kill themselves like the warriors of darkness? Yes and yes. They had to in order to travel between shards. This is part of the reason Emet is interested in the Exarch. He did time travel and also shard travel while retaining bodies which not even the unsundered Ascians can do.
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Feb 5, 2022 01:50
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Cape Westwind dude isn’t even the top of the list of garlean roe dudes who might attack us from beyond the grave if given the chance, grynewaht is right there.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:45
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:Cape Westwind dude isn’t even the top of the list of garlean roe dudes who might attack us from beyond the grave if given the chance, grynewaht is right there. Oh my God now I'm sad we didn't get him.
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Feb 6, 2022 01:56
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His story would have been complete if he was just some random trash mob we aoe down in the dungeon.
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Feb 6, 2022 02:04
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:His story would have been complete if he was just some random trash mob we aoe down in the dungeon. that would have been like all my namedays coming at once
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Feb 6, 2022 02:07
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:Cape Westwind dude isn’t even the top of the list of garlean roe dudes who might attack us from beyond the grave if given the chance, grynewaht is right there. I mean, it seems clear to me that he and Livia are waiting for Gaius to join them. It isn't that they're waiting for us, we just happened to show up and they decided to fight us.
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Feb 6, 2022 04:11
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:Cape Westwind dude isn’t even the top of the list of garlean roe dudes who might attack us from beyond the grave if given the chance, grynewaht is right there. Yeah to be honest I think Grynewaht would have fit a lot better for the second boss.
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Feb 6, 2022 04:18
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I guess deep down Grynewaht knew he was a big loser and so didn't actually have any strong regrets to hold on to
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Feb 6, 2022 04:37
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Grynewaht fuckin sucked and I already had to fight him way too much.
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Feb 6, 2022 04:43
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My impression was that their lingering emotions have remained behind, but that the person as a whole has passed on, with the exception of Minfilia, which is why she's called out by name as Minifilia's Spirit when everybody else is just "the memory of a prinicipled Scion takes form!" Livia's resentment and Rhitatyn's loyalty can't be argued with because there's not a complete person there to argue with.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:03
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Rand Brittain posted:My impression was that their lingering emotions have remained behind, but that the person as a whole has passed on, with the exception of Minfilia, which is why she's called out by name as Minifilia's Spirit when everybody else is just "the memory of a prinicipled Scion takes form!" I thought it was their soul, but twisted by those lingering emotions such that there's nothing else really left. Hence Ilberd. Honestly though I like my idea that Livia and Rhitatyn are waiting for Gaius.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:05
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Lord_Magmar posted:Honestly though I like my idea that Livia and Rhitatyn are waiting for Gaius. It's the popular thing!
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Feb 6, 2022 05:11
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I suppose that's also why we didn't meet Yotsuyu despite her definitely being Villain Most Likely To Become A Literal Grudge Ghost: she actually died with both personally exhausted aether and with her bucket list ("kill myself," "kill my parents" and "kill Asahi") fulfilled.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:18
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Nessus posted:I suppose that's also why we didn't meet Yotsuyu despite her definitely being Villain Most Likely To Become A Literal Grudge Ghost: she actually died with both personally exhausted aether and with her bucket list ("kill myself," "kill my parents" and "kill Asahi") fulfilled. Also she became a primal so her personality is probably still floating around the lifestream as the primal, a la Shiva and the Knights of the Round
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Feb 6, 2022 05:19
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thetoughestbean posted:Also she became a primal so her personality is probably still floating around the lifestream as the primal, a la Shiva and the Knights of the Round Shiva does in fact show up during the dungeon, and it's clearly she's at least as much Ysayle as ever, given she saves us from Amon's fire magic.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:20
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thetoughestbean posted:Also she became a primal so her personality is probably still floating around the lifestream as the primal, a la Shiva and the Knights of the Round That's not how it works; you can tell because Venat passed into the Lifestream to be reborn.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:20
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It would've been pretty funny if during Asahi's interruption of Amon, Tsukuyomi swooped in to interrupt and punt him into the hellpit unceremoniously.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:28
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Lord_Magmar posted:Shiva does in fact show up during the dungeon, and it's clearly she's at least as much Ysayle as ever, given she saves us from Amon's fire magic. Hell, the caster role quest proves it wrong, too. Some of the church tries to resummon Thordan, and fucks up to the point where they instead create a gestalt entity of the Heaven's Ward themselves--the people, not the knights they channelled.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:34
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Rand Brittain posted:That's not how it works; you can tell because Venat passed into the Lifestream to be reborn.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:37
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Lord_Magmar posted:Shiva does in fact show up during the dungeon, and it's clearly she's at least as much Ysayle as ever, given she saves us from Amon's fire magic. Cleretic posted:Hell, the caster role quest proves it wrong, too. Some of the church tries to resummon Thordan, and fucks up to the point where they instead create a gestalt entity of the Heaven's Ward themselves--the people, not the knights they channelled. Those are my points of reference, yes. Here’s what we know: primals stick around in the lifestream. The Als bury the knowledge of their grandfather becoming Phoenix because they didn’t want it, or him, summoned again. When the bishop tries to summon the Knights of the Round, he accidentally summons all of the Heaven’s Ward into the one clone. Shiva is still in the lifestream, with, presumably, Ysayle’s memories. Other than Venat passing into the lifestream suggests that Yotsuyu probably still isn’t in the lifestream as Tsukoyomi?
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Feb 6, 2022 05:41
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thetoughestbean posted:[...] The Als bury the knowledge of their grandfather becoming Phoenix because they didn’t want it, or him, summoned again. [...] But they are apparently okay with the WoL summoning a demi-egi version of their grandfather 
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Feb 6, 2022 05:44
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Cleretic posted:Hell, the caster role quest proves it wrong, too. Some of the church tries to resummon Thordan, and fucks up to the point where they instead create a gestalt entity of the Heaven's Ward themselves--the people, not the knights they channelled. Oh good, even more reason for me to be apoplectic about how the end of the Scholasticate questline went down.
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Feb 6, 2022 05:47
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Begemot posted:But they are apparently okay with the WoL summoning a demi-egi version of their grandfather summoner strikes me as the “job that would get you the most weird glances from passerby” well, reaper is probably up there if some random npc watched the WoL go sicko mode but calling bahamut is probably gonna give some npcs ptsd
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Feb 6, 2022 05:50
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Kyrosiris posted:Oh good, even more reason for me to be apoplectic about how the end of the Scholasticate questline went down. The exact opposite of that actually.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:01
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We do have occasion to summon Ifrit-Egi a few times before random people during the SMN storyline, and they do get startled, but between the WoL being a summoner, the beginnings of others getting summoner training in the modern age, and even the revelation that it's possible to even summon primal-level entities without quite the baggage they'd previously had, maybe it lessens the stigma.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:05
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kitten emergency posted:summoner strikes me as the “job that would get you the most weird glances from passerby” Imagine going around and using the power of 9/11 to defeat bad guys in 2006. That’s what the WoL is effectively doing
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Feb 6, 2022 06:05
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SMN LB3 even has the summoner act like they can't control it which is extra great.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:11
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There's not really any reason to think that people who became primals have a separate primal consciousness. Shiva, Tsukuyomi, and Thordan don't have separate personalities from Ysayle, Yotsuyu, and, uh, Thordan. Hydaelyn was basically just Venat in Amano cosplay. The hosed-up Shiva that Ryne failed to control might have had a personality (and possibly a soul) of its own, or, then again, might not have had the chance to develop one after we killed her in the first ten minutes of her existence. We know that primals have some kind of existence that persists between incarnations, and some of them have souls, but I don't think anything has ever indicated that a primal with a human heart can develop a separate soul. (In fact, Zodiark kind of indicates that they don't, because Zodiark, even when still full of Ancient souls, was essentially dormant once his heart died until Fandaniel took over as the replacement.)
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Feb 6, 2022 06:12
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Rand Brittain posted:There's not really any reason to think that people who became primals have a separate primal consciousness. Shiva, Tsukuyomi, and Thordan don't have separate personalities from Ysayle, Yotsuyu, and, uh, Thordan. Hydaelyn was basically just Venat in Amano cosplay. Shiva actually does at least once get a suggestion she does have a separate consciousness. Because Ysayle talks about having invited something else into her heart that talks to her (and talks to the Shiva Primal in general once or twice as if it is a separate identity). But that might be more Shiva/Ysayle literally talking to herself as well.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:15
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Rand Brittain posted:There's not really any reason to think that people who became primals have a separate primal consciousness. Shiva, Tsukuyomi, and Thordan don't have separate personalities from Ysayle, Yotsuyu, and, uh, Thordan. Hydaelyn was basically just Venat in Amano cosplay. I don’t really have an opinion on whether primals have separate personalities than the people who use themselves as the base for a summoning, I just think the important thing is that the people who do use themselves as the base become stuck in the lifestream unable to pass on
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Feb 6, 2022 06:18
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thetoughestbean posted:I don’t really have an opinion on whether primals have separate personalities than the people who use themselves as the base for a summoning, I just think the important thing is that the people who do use themselves as the base become stuck in the lifestream unable to pass on There is literally no reason to believe this is the case.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:21
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Rand Brittain posted:There is literally no reason to believe this is the case. I mean, I laid out my reasons earlier! I’m extremely open to being told why the ideas are wrong but at least engage with what I’m saying
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Feb 6, 2022 06:23
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It might also just take time, and of course Ysayle, and Haurchefant, and Papalymo, and Minfilia, all have a reason to wait before cycling themselves back in to be born again: you. They're waiting for you, ready to help one last time, because their job isn't done yet. Hell, Ysayle and Haurchefant's ghosts are explicitly following you at least until 3.3, aren't they?
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Feb 6, 2022 06:24
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Yeah we have a population of three people who did this trick: Ysayle, Thordan and Yotsuyu. (I guess maybe also the Heavens Ward.) Ysayle was the only one who seemed to do it repeatedly and presumably independently in the course of her heretic activity. Thordan and the Heavens Ward seemed to do practice runs in private but only really got to Full Knights of the Round status once they cracked open the coffin - I assume they actually did open it for the first time there, not just bring it all in for the sake of theater. Yotsuyu only did it once before dying and burned herself out so hard her hair turned white. Maybe doing personal primal summoning turns your hair white?
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Feb 6, 2022 06:24
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Nessus posted:Yeah we have a population of three people who did this trick: Ysayle, Thordan and Yotsuyu. (I guess maybe also the Heavens Ward.) Louisoix became a primal as well, as did the handmaiden to the queen of Bozja.
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Feb 6, 2022 06:26
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