|
Game of Thrones is well remembered for its character deaths because they're not twists at all. They're clearly set up way in advance and a bunch of people say "bro if you keep acting like this you're going to die." The reason they're shocking and memorable is that readers expect the narrative to avert the car crash, and instead the car crash happens. That's the logic of good tragedy.
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:38 |
|
|
Sitting Here posted:no one is allowed to leave this thread until the one true writing opinion has been found. That sound you just heard was me locking the door to the thread, from the outside I choose the Bludgeon of Banality. Or maybe the Very Large, Seriously Pretty Big Gun of Verboseness.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 17:34
|
|
|
It depends on what the story is. Everything in service of the story. Usually the story is so intertwined with one character that it wouldn't make sense for the character to die in the middle of it because that would be the end of their particular story. If the story is actually the story of a place or a family or humanity in general, etc. then yes, people die all the time and that will make its own ripples in the story. David Mitchell's books come to mind when I think of death as a narrative device that is built into the nature of the stories he is trying to tell. He includes beings that are a bit beyond death which means that death feels different for the reader than when an individual dies who will not be coming back in any form. Authors can play with death in a lot of different ways, again, all depending on how they want to make the reader feel. Since they're writing fiction and not history, death can do and be whatever the author wants. Have dead people continue their narrative as flies on a cosmic wall, continuing to narrate the ongoing struggle but as an omniscient narrator now. Go wild.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 18:37
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Game of Thrones is well remembered for its character deaths because they're not twists at all. They're clearly set up way in advance and a bunch of people say "bro if you keep acting like this you're going to die."
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 21:46
|
|
|
Life or death stakes are kind of boring anyway. Give me stakes that make me turn the page without resorting to a cartoonish "how's the hero going to get out of this one?!" Most of us don't live in situations where death is IN UR FACE on the table. High stakes stuff for most of us is going to be deeply personal—still potentially hard or dangerous, but not star wars or the MCU. I'm trying to think of books I've read recently (grimdark fantasy and horror don't count) that kill off tons of people and coming up with very little, especially among publications from the last few years. It happens a lot more in film and TV, I think.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 22:10
|
|
|
Between Two Fires is a pretty good book imo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2022 22:19
|
|
|
Hi goons, looking for some feedback on a long short. Background: I used to write in genre but over the past few years, I gravitated more to literary fiction (though sometimes it's weird enough to be submitted to genre mags too). Then, early last year, I was feeling inspired by the Gormenghast novels as well as Piranesi and wrote a ~8800 story in a castle. I polished it and submitted it and got some feedback from the EIC at Beneath Ceaseless Skies but barely anywhere considers such long stories so that was mostly the end of that. I found myself thinking about it lately, possibly expanding upon it. And since I now have a years worth of distance, feels easy to just post on the internet! I'm not in dire need of line edits, but feel free to call anything out, especially clunky or difficult to understand sentences. Curious about story, character, pacing, overall feel... all that stuff. Anything you want to say really. Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16xpqZmGD4noL8l07YjcHglUCj05_j_OjrwkZ1qTqbzo/edit?usp=sharing I can post the gist of the professional feedback I got later, just don't want it to color initial opinion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2022 18:44
|
|
|
ultrachrist posted:Hi goons, looking for some feedback on a long short. I'm not likely to take a look before the weekend but post the feedback in a spoiler as I want to test my chops.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2022 23:54
|
|
|
Dream Weaver posted:I'm not likely to take a look before the weekend but post the feedback in a spoiler as I want to test my chops. i skimmed the beginning, it's certainly extremely gormenghast
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2022 00:38
|
|
|
Alright so first passage I get a big white room effect and I understand that it is a beautiful room, but I have no idea that our characters are human or what or where they are in the room. I think it's a long way until I actually figure out a bit of what is going on. That's something that seems to be genre? The closest books I can relate to this in prose I think is probably Gideon or Harrow the ninth. However the feeling I get is a cross between the malazan book of the fallen, the snake (spoilers near the end: a line of hundreds of children that feed on whatever they find) meets Piranesi. And that has to be the strangest combo I have ever witnessed. This was like tailor made for lengs preferences. It also reminds me of the last whale by lisse kirk, which was mournful in a different way. Grammatically it is fine. Style wise I think it hits the genre norms. Character is where this shines, as even the castle seems to be a character. Story wise this could be extended into a novella probably, it has legs especially if the sister and brother can develop and change as they really need to do. I am going to repeat what I keep seeing. When was the last time you bought a short story book? Let that be your guide.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2022 00:50
|
|
|
I read "filthy shades of gray" as "fifty shades of gray."
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2022 05:17
|
|
|
ultrachrist posted:Hi goons, looking for some feedback on a long short. I liked it. Some of the images were very nice, like the people peeping out of the castle with spyglasses to watch the Ragged Woman. I really liked this line: "If there had been a fight, if people had rallied together and sought to prevent this loss, then that fight too had been lost, so long ago that no one still living had any inkling of its details." There are a lot of digressions and things that take longer than they need to. If you want this to be your style (following Peake) then it should be a novel; if you want to write a short story then I think you could cut this down to 6k or so and still get your point across. The pacing feels wonky. The main turning point of the story is that the protagonist changes from a nihilist to an optimist, but the way he changes is basically that he thinks "hmm, maybe optimism is better actually?" If it were a novel, the pacing might make more sense if the inciting incident were him finding the book by B. Grin. But even then, it seems like it would be hard to dramatise the process of just reading a book and being persuaded by it. You have a habit of delivering very long lists of things which I found irksome. Also you overuse em dashes. Stylistically, it's a passable imitation of Peake, but not much more than that. At the risk of sounding like a self-help hippie, I think you need to find your own unique voice. Basically the question is, what will make your story worth reading instead of just picking up Titus Groan again? What can you give me that Peake can't? One possible answer is that you can connect this melancholy style with the ecological crisis we are currently living through. The passage where you described the collapse of food webs was one of the most poignant to me, and one that Peake, obviously, wouldn't have written. You could try to emphasise that aspect further. That's only one possibility, of course. Hope this helps.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2022 11:32
|
|
|
I was going to put this in the self-publishing thread, except this is relevant to traditionally published authors too so books are now just...falling into the ocean apparently: https://twitter.com/mariskreizman/status/1487108487750504449 To contribute something of value - earlier this week on one of my daily writing streams, somebody suggested this outlining tool in the chat: https://iulianionescu.com/blog/master-outlining-and-tracking-tool-v3-0/ I have not personally tried it yet, and despite my love of all things spreadsheets, it does strike me as somewhat overengineered (there's literally a tab for tracking character genealogy which imo is now into world building notes territory instead of just outlinine), but kaom has been struggling with her outlining and this is apparently helping so if you are too, then maybe try this out. PS: @Dr. Kloctopussy or a mod, any chance of editing this as a resource into the OP? Leng fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 28, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
Leng posted:I was going to put this in the self-publishing thread, except this is relevant to traditionally published authors too so books are now just...falling into the ocean apparently Sadly, it happens. Some friends of mine run a toy company and they had to cancel a christmas product launch because the entire line was lost at sea. The things you think you'll never have to prepare for...
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2022 00:07
|
|
|
Leng posted:I have not personally tried it yet, and despite my love of all things spreadsheets, it does strike me as somewhat overengineered (there's literally a tab for tracking character genealogy which imo is now into world building notes territory instead of just outlinine), but kaom has been struggling with her outlining and this is apparently helping so if you are too, then maybe try this out. The genealogy tab did prompt me to think about lifespan. I made a note in my worldbuilding document. Then I deleted the tab. I’m more interested in the mechanism by which I take my discovery notes (a garbled doc of bullet points, half in conflict with the other half) and turn them into a plot - that part is helpful! And for my current efforts to fix my outline, the intensity score stuff is helping me to figure out in what order events in Act II should transpire (a decision I’ve been stuck on for weeks).
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2022 01:35
|
|
|
Blurb writing is, perhaps, the most painful aspect of the whole writing process for me. It’s just… not fun. Here’s a blurb for my book, which is a mystery/detective story, and a sequel:quote:A murder with no motive. An invisible killer. A detective blessed and cursed with an unusual ability. Please destroy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
Sorry for the late response. Some stuff in my personal life blew up. Big thank you to those that read the story!Dream Weaver posted:I am going to repeat what I keep seeing. When was the last time you bought a short story book? Let that be your guide. Thanks. I haven't read Gideon the Ninth but it's on my list. With regards to your last question: I read Cold Springs by Richard Ford two or three weeks ago. If I look at my goodreads, I read 11 short story collections in 2021, which is about 25% of my total reading. I figure they probably are guiding me? I don't know. I read George Saunders' Russian book and one of the most helpful things was hearing his rewriting process, which I was already doing a weaker version of. Milkfred E. Moore posted:I read "filthy shades of gray" as "fifty shades of gray." Can't unsee now. Sailor Viy posted:Hope this helps. It helped a lot, thank you. When I first wrote it, I was already worried that him changing his mind came too quickly and when I reread it recently I had the same thought as you that he should find the book after the first scene rather than reflect on it. So that was validating. When I think about making it shorter, I don't feel much interest. When I think about making it longer, I'm intrigued but also trepidatious. Re: voice. It's a good point. This isn't my regular writing voice but something intentional and it's difficult to tell when that works or not. Agree on em dashes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2022 05:00
|
|
|
newts posted:Blurb writing is, perhaps, the most painful aspect of the whole writing process for me. It’s just… not fun. Here’s a blurb for my book, which is a mystery/detective story, and a sequel: To me, this feels very unspecific. There's a lot of heightened phrases that reminds me of the "In a world. . ." movie voiceover without a lot of detail. Like he has a unique ability but I don't know what it is (empath made me think of City of Heroes). Similarly, there's harsh laws. There's a choice. A previous violent ending. Like it's a list of important conflict beats. I don't think you need to explain everything but some specific details would probably draw me in more. The obvious killer isn't the killer is timeless hook but again, what makes me interested in this specific version?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2022 05:06
|
|
|
Thank you! That’s super helpful. I can see exactly what you mean. I’ll give it another go with an attempt at being more specific.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2022 14:51
|
|
|
I figured it would be better to limit my memes to general Positive Writing Vibes than Specific Rules To Be Followed since I don't think people will argue over this
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
you're not like, under contractual obligation to post memes. You could just post your own thoughts about writing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 13:41
|
|
|
Something I’ve been thinking about lately is how there’s a weird parallel—for me, at least—in producing visual art and writing. I have really similar issues with translating what I’m seeing or imagining my head onto the page when I’m doing both things. That’s pretty surprising to me because I’d always imagined writing and drawing as two really different processes. When I’m thinking of an illustration, I’ll often build (what seems like) an incredibly detailed picture of the final product in my head. Composition, colors, etc—everything is there the way I want it. This feels like a finished piece that I can just translate onto paper (or computer screen). But, not shockingly, this never works. No matter how careful I am with drafting. And I’m actually pretty decent at drawing from a reference. The finished thing never resembles the ideal. So, I think I’ve come to the understanding that what’s in my head is not as detailed or complete as I imagine, but is my brain sort of filling in the details for me. I feel I’m seeing them, but maybe I’m not really seeing them and only imagining they’re there. Writing is weirdly sort of the same for me. I imagine an idealized thing: plot, characters, setting, atmosphere, sounds. It’s more like a movie, or random, disconnected scenes from a movie. And I know that would be hard to translate to writing. But, I realized that even when I’m imagining in words what I’m going to write, I have the same issue: the dialogue or paragraphs I’m imagining as finished are somehow incomplete. The words are not all there, only some of them, and my brain imagines the rest. I don’t even know how to describe it—I guess they just exist as a feeling. They’re sort of filled in just like the details of the art I think I can see. Anyway, that makes it just as hard to translate what I’m imagining to the page as the drawing issue. It’s a completely different process when I’m sitting at my computer, actually writing—more like actually drawing. Even my writing doesn’t come out the way I imagine it should. Anyway, those are my dumb writing thoughts for the day.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 15:19
|
|
|
newts posted:Writing is weirdly sort of the same for me. I imagine an idealized thing: plot, characters, setting, atmosphere, sounds. It’s more like a movie, or random, disconnected scenes from a movie. And I know that would be hard to translate to writing. But, I realized that even when I’m imagining in words what I’m going to write, I have the same issue: the dialogue or paragraphs I’m imagining as finished are somehow incomplete. The words are not all there, only some of them, and my brain imagines the rest. I don’t even know how to describe it—I guess they just exist as a feeling. They’re sort of filled in just like the details of the art I think I can see. Anyway, that makes it just as hard to translate what I’m imagining to the page as the drawing issue. It’s a completely different process when I’m sitting at my computer, actually writing—more like actually drawing. Even my writing doesn’t come out the way I imagine it should. Not so much with visual stuff because I'm poo poo as picturing actual images in my head but I sort of get you on writing. A scene or whatever rarely goes on the page exactly the way I imagined it in my head, but while what I imagined in my head may have a few lines or snippets attached to it before I start writing anything down it's generally more how I want a scene to feel than what I literally want the words to be. My solution is iteration, the same as it is for visual stuff. You wouldn't expect your first sketch to match up to the finished piece you're imagining, and I don't think you should with words either. You slowly build up depth pass after pass until it is, like literally any other piece of art, done enough. That said, I think experience makes a huge difference in your ability to translate what you imagine into reality no matter what medium you're working in. For me part of that is just down to developing skill in producing the thing, but I think part of it is also training your ideation to have a better eye for construction; not just how you want the thing you write down to feel, but how you're going to make it feel that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
Yeah, makes sense. I also sometimes wonder if the masters—of all arts—ever have their work come out exactly the way they’d imagined it. If that’s a skill you can achieve with lots of practice? Does it even matter? And, for a more technical issue, how do you guys like to handle gaps in speech or hesitant speech? I think I overuse ellipses, but I can’t really think of an alternative that conveys the same feeling?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 21:23
|
|
|
IMO the creative process doesn't change that much as your skill level develops. You get better at using your toolset, make fewer mistakes, pick up shortcuts, learn new techniques—but even masters gently caress up constantly. Amateur artists will fret about making "bad" art, because "good" artists make "good" art , right? So if they make bad art, they're not a good artist. That's not how it works, though. Skilled artists make awful garbage all the time. Their art may be better on average than art made by less-skilled artists, sure. But you never stop making "bad" art, even when you're "good'. (Or in nerd terms: A d6 rolls higher than a d4 on average, but both of them can still roll a 1.) newts posted:And, for a more technical issue, how do you guys like to handle gaps in speech or hesitant speech? I think I overuse ellipses, but I can’t really think of an alternative that conveys the same feeling? I try not to use the ellipsis too much, but I feel similarly about most punctuation in dialogue. It's there like stage direction to show the reader how things are being said. If it's already clear, either explicitly or implicitly via context, you don't need to use it. But you did need it in that sentence, or you'd put the stress elsewhere. Similar to how having an action beat after every line of dialogue gives a piece of writing a weirdly melodramatic tone, too much punctuation often makes it sound "overacted" inside my head. Places where I would use an ellipsis is if someone's pausing for dramatic effect or actually trailing off, whether accidental or deliberate. Generally I try to imagine the line without the fancy punctuation, and if it feels better that way, I'll just cut it. I tend to lump ideas together and then have to break them apart in editing to reflect individual ideas. A good rule of thumb with dialogue is if you're doing anything 'fancy' with it, a light touch is best. Once a reader gets the tone of someone's voice down, they don't usually need a ton of reminders.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 22:48
|
|
|
Good points! There’s a writer whose style I really like (She writes fanfiction. Shut up!) who uses a period to indicate a pause in dialogue or thoughts. It took me a little while to get used to it, but I really like how simple it is. Gets the same feeling of the ellipses without the annoying visual.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
i read a book that used no punctuation apart from ellipses. it was weirdly readable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 04:23
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:i read a book that used no punctuation apart from ellipses. it was weirdly readable. So like stream of consciousness? Was it a ton of dialogue? Trying to wrap my tiny brain around it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:22
|
|
|
REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:So like stream of consciousness? Was it a ton of dialogue? Trying to wrap my tiny brain around it. it was like a regular book, just the only punctuation was ellipses. So imagine a regular book, but when you would normally have commas or fullstops: ellipses.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:37
|
|
|
no quotation marks to indicate dialogue either?????
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:40
|
|
|
Junpei posted:no quotation marks to indicate dialogue either????? Have some Sally Rooney, sliced right off the bone: quote:Alice was still standing by the door. Yes, it’s beautiful, she said. Even better in the evening, actually.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 07:45
|
|
|
Nae posted:Have some Sally Rooney, sliced right off the bone: I find this really irritating and affected, but also, I don't notice it after about five minutes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 10:54
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:it was like a regular book, just the only punctuation was ellipses. So imagine a regular book, but when you would normally have commas or fullstops: ellipses. Please post book title and author so I can read this and educate myself. This sounds fascinating!
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2022 00:36
|
|
|
It is called weetbix emperor and was self published so may not be possible unfortunately
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:It is called weetbix emperor and was self published so may not be possible unfortunately
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2022 04:07
|
|
|
SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Leng's in Aussie, right? I'm sure we could mail a copy across the ditch. i read it 30 years ago and don't have a copy lol. i'll see if i can find one though. https://natlib.govt.nz/records/2212...5Bpath%5D=items this is the only record i can find
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2022 04:26
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:It is called weetbix emperor and was self published so may not be possible unfortunately sebmojo posted:i read it 30 years ago and don't have a copy lol. i'll see if i can find one though. Oh the author's a Kiwi! SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Leng's in Aussie, right? I'm sure we could mail a copy across the ditch. A corresponding copy doesn't seem to exist across the pond here but I do have family in Auckland so the next time I'm there visiting, I'll see if my family's up for a nice little road trip to swing by Wellington and take advantage of those legal deposit requirements.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2022 23:37
|
|
|
Anyone got any good advice/resources on pacing, tension and stakes? Doesn't matter if it's about short fiction or novels, I need help with both. But especially looking for advice on doing it right in a novel length work.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 20:05
|
|
|
a friendly penguin posted:Anyone got any good advice/resources on pacing, tension and stakes? Doesn't matter if it's about short fiction or novels, I need help with both. But especially looking for advice on doing it right in a novel length work. Donald Maass's "Writing the Breakout Novel" has a section on pace in novels about two-thirds of the way through, and is a useful resource in general. He also talks a lot about stakes, including what they are and how to raise them. For creating tension, Robert McKee talks about how to dispense information through suspense, mystery, and dramatic irony in "Story," which is another great general resource. Other writing books I've found helpful include John Yorke's "Into the Woods" (a dissection of the Shakespearean five-act structure and how it maps to character arcs) and "Creating Character Arcs" by K.M. Weiland (a down-to-earth, accessible look at how to create compelling characters). If you have the energy (and the money/library card), reading these four books should give you ideas on how to overcome a lot of the hurdles you're facing. Having said that, here's a caveat on writing guides in general, from someone who's read quite a few: some of the best ones are written by people who will dispense advice with extreme confidence and zero humility. It can be super annoying to wade through their self-congratulatory bullshit, but if you can grit your teeth and power through it, you can pick up a lot of insight that will improve your work. Good luck!
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2022 20:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:38 |
|
|
Leng posted:Oh the author's a Kiwi!
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2022 05:03
|
|