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Do we really need to get rid of either? I know they’re strong but all the tournament results I’ve seen since I’ve started playing indicate the format is pretty diverse.
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Feb 6, 2022 22:38
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fadam posted:Do we really need to get rid of either? I know they’re strong but all the tournament results I’ve seen since I’ve started playing indicate the format is pretty diverse. Yes, but on the other hand, yes.
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Feb 6, 2022 22:56
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I don't know if the competitive state of red can survive a dockside ban. Maybe it could, but the overall power of dockside improves the strength of Rx decks immensely, and if it got banned I would suspect a lot of decks that previously ran red would probably cut the colour out, and 2 or 3 colour Rx decks would fade out of the meta, at least until another turbopowered red card comes out. Thoracle could probably get banned probably wouldn't seriously impact the meta though. Farm decks could still work, though they would either need to generate 2 more mana for War Jace or have an extra draw spell like gitaxian probe to make lab man work. It's still doable, they just might need to dig more, or pay more life during their naus turn. But the overall function of the deck isn't worsened. However, other decks that run thoracle as a basic win con because they run they just naturally ran demonic tutors to try to get their wincon at instant speed (najeela, food chain, etc) have to actively worsen their deck by putting in bad spells in order to win. I think it's an overall safe ban and relatively healthy for the format if it did, as it will slow the game down slightly, allowing slower decks to work better in the format.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:08
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Is it just me or is that kinda sad that the entire competitive meta of one color depends on one card? Would that even be considered a meta or just a one trick pony?
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Feb 6, 2022 23:22
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Jiro posted:Is it just me or is that kinda sad that the entire competitive meta of one color depends on one card? Would that even be considered a meta or just a one trick pony? It's obviously less ideal than an entire colour having a breadth of fun and powerful cards to choose from (see UGB), but I'd rather all the colours have at least SOME cool stuff to play in super powered formats even if it means two cards are all that's holding up red lol.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:25
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Yeah, red has like less than 10 notable cards outside of Dockside and one of those is a $100+ reserved list card. Jeska's Will is nice, but as far as non-cycle cards go, red's big identity for the last 5 years has been rituals, which isn't all that interesting.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:27
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If they're gonna ban Dockside, at least also ban Island too.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:28
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Fwiw, nobody gives a poo poo about Dockside in mono-red. Splashing it as an extra ritual in UGBx is the problem and that's not really justifiable as "red's identity".
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Feb 6, 2022 23:30
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I hope they are not making any considerations for the format through the lens of cEDH. They got their drat Flash ban and swore on a stack of bibles that was all they needed. Well, if banning Dockside is going to gently caress up cEDH, so be it.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:31
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Magnetic North posted:I hope they are not making any considerations for the format through the lens of cEDH. They got their drat Flash ban and swore on a stack of bibles that was all they needed. Well, if banning Dockside is going to gently caress up cEDH, so be it. Source your quotes.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:32
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maybe just reprinting Dockside and making an edh addendum that you can only do a loop X amount of times instead of "forever" would have been a better idea. maybe like 3 laps or so.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:33
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Bust Rodd posted:I really, really doubt that but it would be cool. Sheldon's gonna ban Opposition Agent instead because he got a cardboard cut while sleeving one or some poo poo.
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Feb 6, 2022 23:40
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Dizz posted:maybe just reprinting Dockside and making an edh addendum that you can only do a loop X amount of times instead of "forever" would have been a better idea. maybe like 3 laps or so. The problem is that looping makes a lot of decks, particularly RB ones where the commander isn't an outlet, competitively viable. If Dockside gets banned tomorrow I'll remove it from Najeela and Kenrith and slot some other good value card in there and be totally fine. I'll probably take Prosper apart entirely because curio looping Dockside is a huge part of the deck's win condition.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:17
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"X loops" isn't really a viable rule from a technical standpoint without turning off very ordinary board states and individual cards, also. Four Horsemen is already banned for not changing the boardstate, but how do you differentiate pinging with Heliod + Ballista 3 times from activating Pestilence or Necropotence 3 times?
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Feb 7, 2022 00:33
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Magnetic North posted:I hope they are not making any considerations for the format through the lens of cEDH. They got their drat Flash ban and swore on a stack of bibles that was all they needed. Well, if banning Dockside is going to gently caress up cEDH, so be it.  Anyway... I'm all for a dockside ban because it's an extremely busted card and everyone knows it. That it's warping the cEDH meta is just another reason why it should be, even if not the primary reason. I understand it's a cool card but it's far too easy to exploit and falls into the category of "so good you'd be stupid not to run it" just like Thoracle/Consultation. It's a matter of meta homogeneity as far as cEDH goes and a matter of being really freaking strong for lower power level tables. I don't think getting rid of it would really "break" too many decks either. There's still plenty of ways to accumulate a ton of treasures that don't involve literally the most broken ritual ever printed for the format. And I don't think it'd break red either in cEDH, though it may (and honestly HOPEFULLY) chill out the really greedy turbo naus meta.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:47
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With this year's commander decks likely being aligned to the mob families of New Capenna a more subdued extortionist feels right at home there.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:53
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Framboise posted:
To be fair, there are a ton of cards that are nowhere near the ban crosshairs that are "so good you'd be stupid not to run it." I can't remember the last time I saw/played a red deck that didn't run it, but I can say that about a ton of cards in basically every colour. All my black decks have the tutors, all my green decks have carpet and library, all my blue decks have the good counter magic and fish/rhystic etc. Not to mention basically every single deck runs the good rocks and every deck that can probably wants lotus. I guess you can argue that these cards have been part of the format's identity for way longer so they deserve the legacy Brainstorm treatment, but idk I think that's kind of shaky logic when you're talking about a card in a colour that's really shallow on legitimately S+ cards. If Dockside was released in like Mirage or something and we sort of just let the water boil while we were in it it for 20+ years I don't think people would have such strong feelings about it. I guess what it comes down to for me is I think paper formats should only really have stuff banned/modified when things are really hosed up. Maybe it's just because I've only been playing CEDH for 6 months but I think the meta, both online and locally has been really good, and I don't see the value in shaking things up for no reason. All the tournament results that get posted on the CEDH server have a bunch of different decks placing in top 8.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:58
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Dockside is a card they could have printed in mirage and nobody bats an eye, sure. But that's because there weren't like 5 moxen/lotuses and people weren't playing good decks 25 years ago. It's a card they should have known better than to print in 2019, especially in a commander-specific product. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of awareness of the format and its design needs. Dockside 100% scales to table power, and to how many of them are at the table. A durdle turtle table where people are chucking Explosive Vegetation and The Great Henge instead of Chrome Mox and Wild Growth, the card's hardly notable. The big problem is that now you are incentivizing poor play patterns. There are a non-negligible number of players who will deliberately play worse cards because they don't want to power opposing Docksides, and that's pretty much the only damning evidence you need to tell you that the card is a problem.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:07
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imo make dockside an uncommon reprint. then ban it. real talk though i feel like red and white need some meat on their bones. maybe stop making goblins for red and enchants for white and give them a gun or something.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:12
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Toshimo posted:Dockside 100% scales to table power, and to how many of them are at the table. A durdle turtle table where people are chucking Explosive Vegetation and The Great Henge instead of Chrome Mox and Wild Growth, the card's hardly notable. Carpet literally punishes people for playing basic lands lol. I think you can take every criticism people direct at Dockside and apply them directly to Carpet and they'll still fit. I guess I just disagree that the card was a mistake. It's insanely powerful and has obvious applications, but there's also pretty reasonable counter play with null rod effects, artifact wipes, mayhem devil, etc. I don't see any way to bring Red and White up to the Sultai colors without printing cards like Dockside and Breach. It's understandable that people disagree, but I'd rather live in a world where all the colours have access to broken stuff than just three of them because WotC happened to make more 'mistakes' with them back in the day. This is all kind of pointless because we have no idea if anything is even going to change tomorrow lol. If Dockside gets banned I'll be disappointed but I won't be overly surprised, and I'll probably just end up playing Najeela even more. fadam fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 01:27
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Dizz posted:imo make dockside an uncommon reprint. white and red have guns already  
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Feb 7, 2022 01:40
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Red would still have Jeska’s Will, Wheel of Fortune, and Underworld Breach, it would survive a Dockside ban. The whole format would be fine, it would simply “rotate” to be a turn slower, on average.
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Feb 7, 2022 01:40
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DontMockMySmock posted:white and red have guns already I love Mogg Assassin that takes me back to HS days.
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Feb 7, 2022 05:29
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Bust Rodd posted:Red would still have Jeska’s Will, Wheel yeah but now they probably can't do their turn one wins, to the excitement of the three other players playing cedh.
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Feb 7, 2022 13:07
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Dockside can’t do anything in Turn 1 unless you’re player 4 or player 1 and player 2 both had “play two mana rocks and pass” openers to feed into your player 3 dockside.
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Feb 7, 2022 15:03
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So the RC came out with their February announcement. it's fuckin nothing, lol
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Feb 7, 2022 16:52
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For everyone who can't access the website: e: Tergrid seems like a bully deck, but I haven't played against it. Is it that bad they were thinking about banning it? I'm also kinda surprised that Oracle wasn't banned because I feel like the cEDH players have been complaining that it flattens things, but that may be my imagination. Chakan fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 17:09
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Thanks and god bless.Chakan posted:e: Tergrid seems like a bully deck, but I haven't played against it. Is it that bad they were thinking about banning it? I'm also kinda surprised that Oracle wasn't banned because I feel like the cEDH players have been complaining that it flattens things, but that may be my imagination. It's a safe, easy wincon, but it's not super far out of line with the other good wincons and when the format is healthy with it in it, who cares. Tegrid is the worst kind of card where it's not particularly good but it's also not particularly fun. I don't think it should get banned but I don't care if they do lol fadam fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 17:23
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(games governed by a strong social contract)
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Feb 7, 2022 17:27
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What kind of immense rear end in a top hat do you need to be to not comprehend that, especially during a global pandemic full of in-person restrictions, that the majority of play is not being done at your LGS with your close group of pals? "Strong Social Contract" can eat my entire rear end. Fire Sheldon. Preferably into the sun.
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Feb 7, 2022 17:31
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Where is the majority of play being done? I play in person with my friends or at my LGS way more often than I play on Cockatrice.
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Feb 7, 2022 17:41
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fadam posted:Thanks and god bless. That all seems reasonable. I was looking over the ban list and was kinda surprised that Braids Cabal Minion is still on there. Seems like Tergrid is along the same lines. Toshimo posted:What kind of immense rear end in a top hat do you need to be to not comprehend that, especially during a global pandemic full of in-person restrictions, that the majority of play is not being done at your LGS with your close group of pals? "Strong Social Contract" can eat my entire rear end. Yeah it's baffling to say "we're the people who write the rules, but if you just put in the work to mould your group right, there's no problems". I think they're stretching the bounds of what's possible because the format is casual. I wouldn't be surprised if they broke it into two, with a cEDH banlist and a casual banlist.
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Feb 7, 2022 17:43
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Chakan posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they broke it into two, with a cEDH banlist and a casual banlist. I would. I think the last thing they want to do is schism the format. FWIW there's a lot of stuff on the banlist that might be a safe remove like worldfire was. Maybe I'm just CRAZY, but I don't think Library would be too good.
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Feb 7, 2022 17:45
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cEDH is EDH. It follows all the same rules and the same banlist. The only difference is that it's got an implied understanding of expectations in the game experience among the players at the table. The c does a lot of the rule 0 conversation for us in this situation-- and that's all it really is. Still think Dockside should get the boot, but I guess I'll go full steam ahead in building a meta deck against it.
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Feb 7, 2022 18:09
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Chakan posted:Yeah it's baffling to say "we're the people who write the rules, but if you just put in the work to mould your group right, there's no problems". Magic's transition from D&D to WoD continues in more ways than going from Forgotten Realms to Werewolves and Vampires...
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Feb 7, 2022 18:13
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:(games governed by a strong social contract) Sheldon's always been a condescending motherfucker, but this might be a new low. "We know there are a lot of complaints about these cards, but the 5% of people we think are playing the game the right way have a way to handle them, so they're fine! For the other 95%, they should be trying harder to be like the 5%!" Basically, Toshimo posted:Fire Sheldon. Preferably into the sun. Also, maybe this is a Hot Take, but... fadam posted:Maybe I'm just CRAZY, but I don't think Library would be too good. ...while I think a bunch of the banned cards could be unbanned, I feel like any Reserved List card that's banned should stay banned. Especially given the RC's official stance on proxies. You could maybe make an argument for, like, Rofellos, because at least he'd be a new commander and would add something unique to the format, but Library's a card that could do nothing most of the time but be really strong in edge cases and could be put in every deck. Given that Sheldon still writes for SCG, the optics of unbanning a card that most people don't have, most people won't get, but SCG charges $3000 for would be pretty bad IMO.
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Feb 7, 2022 18:27
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Framboise posted:cEDH is EDH. It follows all the same rules and the same banlist. The only difference is that it's got an implied understanding of expectations in the game experience among the players at the table. For sure, I don't mean to imply otherwise. But when the people making the banlist have to keep leaning on rule 0 and the social contract, it makes me wonder if it would be better for everyone if there was an explicit competitive edh format. If I had the money, I would play cEDH, but as it stands the banlist is a bit of a mess because some cards (Primeval Titan comes to mind) might be borderline playable in cEDH but aren't fun in low power tables (because everyone will recurr/clone it). I also think it's really funny there's cards banned because they cost too much, considering what isn't on that list nowadays. Toph Bei Fong posted:Magic's transition from D&D to WoD continues in more ways than going from Forgotten Realms to Werewolves and Vampires... lol
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Feb 7, 2022 18:30
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disaster pastor posted:...while I think a bunch of the banned cards could be unbanned, I feel like any Reserved List card that's banned should stay banned. Especially given the RC's official stance on proxies. You could maybe make an argument for, like, Rofellos, because at least he'd be a new commander and would add something unique to the format, but Library's a card that could do nothing most of the time but be really strong in edge cases and could be put in every deck. Given that Sheldon still writes for SCG, the optics of unbanning a card that most people don't have, most people won't get, but SCG charges $3000 for would be pretty bad IMO. Fair enough, that's a good point.
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Feb 7, 2022 18:43
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sorry guys & gals - my playgroup housebanned dockside, so I guess that's why sheldon didn't have to.
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Feb 7, 2022 19:26
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/kamigawa-neon-dynasty-commander-decklists-2022-02-07quote:(Editor's Note: The Upgrades Unleashed Commander deck was inadvertently printed with two copies of Mossfire Valley instead of an additional basic land. Players wanting to play the deck in Commander should swap out the extra copy of Mossfire Valley for a basic land or the land of their choice.)
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Feb 7, 2022 19:36
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