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A couple of other things about Chain of Command: - The pre-game "Patrol Phase" is genius. You play a sorta- mini game where you move tokens on the board to get the most advantageous starting position. It's brilliant (much better than the usual "line up like a football game" setup) and I wish every other wargame did something like it. - The rulebook comes with lists for the usual late WW2 USA/USSR/Germany armies, but there are excellent free lists that cover most of WW2 on the Lardies' website. There are also excellent (also free) lists for other areas like the Spanish Civil War and Vietnam floating around out there. And as the game uses historical TO&Es and it makes it easy to come up with stats for vehicles, it's very easy to make a list for pretty much any army of the era.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:42
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lilljonas posted:not the best at editing books This is a massive understatement. Sharp Practice is an absolutely amazing game, but horrifically edited and proofread.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:47
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lilljonas posted:I've painted up... maybe 8-9 platoons for our club's CoC games. I've lost count at this point. We use CoC as our main WW2 game. It has a few flaws and some odd bits (anti-tank flamethrowers and mortars comes to mind) How would you fix mortars? Cessna posted:A couple of other things about Chain of Command: Ooh, I'd love to try vietnam, where is this?
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Feb 5, 2022 01:36
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Tias posted:How would you fix mortars? I found this one, but IDK if it's the same thing Cessna is referring to: http://carportgaming.blogspot.com/2017/03/letters-from-vietnam.html
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Feb 5, 2022 02:07
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That's the one, Chain of Command DMZ.
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Feb 5, 2022 05:04
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Tias posted:How would you fix mortars? Two of our pet peeves were that off table mortars are quite accurate (exactly spot on if you roll 8+ on 2D6) and too effective at pinning. Basically even if you just clip a single man, that unit is pinned and can’t do anything. To deal with this we made mortars more likely to deviate from the target when you try to move the barrage, and also allow troops caught in a barrage to try to crawl out using tactical movement. If you’re in the middle of a barrage you’re still toast, but troops in the outskirts of a barrage can at least try to crawl out, or you can try to crawl into cover. Also forward observers were senior to the platoon commander. So we only let them activate on 1’s, not by a SL activation. That nerfs them a little bit as well as they become less reliable. We also divided off-table barrages into a small and a large version. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 18:02
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Tias posted:I got into Bolt Action because, well, that's what everyone here in Copenhagen (who don't play FoW) plays. However, someone on the milhist discord turned me on to Too Fat Lardies' Chain of Command, which I think looks pretty good. In the rules as written I somewhat agree that multiple-phases-in-a-row can make the game swingy, but our solution to that has been to use the "drop a die" method (meaning that in each successive phase you lose one command die). This is easy to apply and gives long runs of phases strongly diminishing returns, so we really like how it's played out. Where CoC (and most TFL games to be honest) really shine is in campaign play. The "At the Sharp End" supplement is well worth the cost to download and provides the framework for linking games together, tracking casualties, and building (or losing!) the reputation of your platoon leader. To go along with this framework there are a bunch of "Pint-Sized Campaigns" (so named because they cost as much as a pint of beer) that provide historical context to a series of linked games, often with historically accurate maps for each table. These run the gamut from straight-up slugfests (29 Let's Go) to break-outs (Scottish Corridor) to holding actions (Malaya) to mad dashes (Road to Bremen) to heavily asymmetric scenarios (Totensonntag) and everything in between. Some are dead simple (Operation: Martlet) and some provide a lot of interesting and complicated logistical challenges (Bloody Bucket). They're almost always well worth the price. EDIT: The Blitzkrieg 1940 supplement is really good as well, with tons of info on historical TO&E and rules for cool stuff like airborne drops, glider landings, bicycle-mounted units, better/expanded rules for fortifications. The scenarios also show a marked improvement over the ones in the main book. Ilor fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 19:49
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The patrol phase and jump-off points also do a pretty good job at recreating Fog of War without an umpire. You get a rough idea of where enemies COULD be, but you don't know until the opponent plunks down the troops. This can be used as feints and all kinds of mind games. And if you play with hidden support options you never know if there could be a tank rolling down that road in a few moments or not. That forces you to play more cautiously than in a game where you have more of a God view of the battlefield from the start.
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Feb 5, 2022 19:54
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Add to that the capacity for Ambushes and Interrupts and it really ramps up the uncertainty.
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Feb 5, 2022 20:01
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I can't add anything to the above except I agree, CoC is really good. If you want a flavourful WW2 game at platoon scale, where one person = one person and one vehicle = one vehicle, it can't be beat. Also not to get all personal but here in rona years CoC has become a date night for me and my fiancée. Started with amassing random minis and chits to play it out, now I've got a beloved hungarian force and she's got the good guys. All our games are somehow set in the Entirely unrelatedly, no maskirovka here, some painting advice: did red army tanks go into combat with slogans or was that just a propaganda photo thing? asking for a friend.
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Feb 7, 2022 05:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I can't add anything to the above except I agree, CoC is really good. If you want a flavourful WW2 game at platoon scale, where one person = one person and one vehicle = one vehicle, it can't be beat. Afaik 90% a propaganda thing. Not unheard of, but not as common as modern modellers and gamers might wish it was. So go with what you prefer. 
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Feb 7, 2022 08:16
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lilljonas posted:Afaik 90% a propaganda thing. Not unheard of, but not as common as modern modellers and gamers might wish it was. So go with what you prefer. People will also tell you that units didn't go into battle with standard-bearers and musicians, but is a WW2 platoon really complete without someone tooting to drown out the lieutenant's worse orders?
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Feb 7, 2022 08:40
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90s Cringe Rock posted:People will also tell you that units didn't go into battle with standard-bearers and musicians, but is a WW2 platoon really complete without someone tooting to drown out the lieutenant's worse orders? It's true! I wish there was an Alpini marching band kit, for this very reason. Or at least some cooks!  I mean hell, I'm currently waiting for a traffic controller (complete with the little red sign he's waving about) to arrive+paint, for my Italian armoured platoon!
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Feb 7, 2022 08:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Entirely unrelatedly, no maskirovka here, some painting advice: did red army tanks go into combat with slogans or was that just a propaganda photo thing? asking for a friend. - Many of the propaganda slogans were painted for propaganda purposes - that is, when they knew there was a photographer nearby. - They were most common in late '42 and early '43. You might see a few outside of that timeframe, but they're much less common. - There were lots of other markings painted on Soviet tanks. The white air-recognition stripes used in the assault on Berlin, for example. tl;dr, find a pic you think looks cool and paint you models like that. Cessna fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 16:07
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I can't add anything to the above except I agree, CoC is really good. If you want a flavourful WW2 game at platoon scale, where one person = one person and one vehicle = one vehicle, it can't be beat. There were no "photo op only" slogans, if you had them, you're going into battle with them. In addition to your straightforward "For the Motherland" type stuff that was up to an individual unit's discretion, there were also named tanks or tank columns sponsored by individuals or organizations, those had inscriptions determined by the donors. There were dozens of tank columns like these and thousands of tanks, but for every one that's painted up nicely you have ten going into battle with just a tactical number if anything.
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Feb 7, 2022 20:15
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Ensign Expendable posted:There were no "photo op only" slogans, if you had them, you're going into battle with them. In addition to your straightforward "For the Motherland" type stuff that was up to an individual unit's discretion, there were also named tanks or tank columns sponsored by individuals or organizations, those had inscriptions determined by the donors. There were dozens of tank columns like these and thousands of tanks, but for every one that's painted up nicely you have ten going into battle with just a tactical number if anything. Oh yeah? Well explain why you never seen tanks with slogans that weren't photographed! 
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Feb 7, 2022 21:15
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Cessna posted:tl;dr, find a pic you think looks cool and paint you models like that. Everyone keeps complaining about my grey T-34s even though I painted them exactly like the pictures 
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Feb 7, 2022 22:25
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spectralent posted:Everyone keeps complaining about my grey T-34s even though I painted them exactly like the pictures Tell them its because of all the Feldgrau they turned into paste.
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Feb 7, 2022 22:28
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spectralent posted:Everyone keeps complaining about my grey T-34s even though I painted them exactly like the pictures One of my favorite looks is this night SAS unit that was done up for a flames of war thing.  I don't think he ever finished it though.
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Feb 7, 2022 22:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also not to get all personal but here in rona years CoC has become a date night for me and my fiancée. Started with amassing random minis and chits to play it out, now I've got a beloved hungarian force and she's got the good guys. All our games are somehow set in the 
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Feb 7, 2022 23:13
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Tell them its because of all the Feldgrau they turned into paste. Victorious RKKA solves "which Feldgrau is accurate for july of 1942" problem by grinding nazis of all shades into uniform grey.
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Feb 8, 2022 16:21
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Victorious RKKA solves "which Feldgrau is accurate for july of 1942" problem by grinding nazis of all shades into uniform grey. Uniform already grey 
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Feb 8, 2022 16:27
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Sooo back at painting my OT flame tank, and.. what colour are tracks normally? Track sprockets and chain links? Did they give it all the whitewash/4BO go-over, or would it be more gunmetal?
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Feb 9, 2022 19:49
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Tias posted:Sooo back at painting my OT flame tank, and.. what colour are tracks normally? Track sprockets and chain links? Did they give it all the whitewash/4BO go-over, or would it be more gunmetal? From memory its usually just natural steel, rubber is black, then add dirt and shine where the track does and doesn't contact the ground Edit: Unless you're talking about tracks that are affixed to the tank as applique armor. That could be anything from natural steel, to a coat of primer+base coat, to full blown camouflage pattern. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Feb 9, 2022 |
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Feb 9, 2022 20:48
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Tias posted:Sooo back at painting my OT flame tank, and.. what colour are tracks normally? Track sprockets and chain links? Did they give it all the whitewash/4BO go-over, or would it be more gunmetal? Dark metal with brighter polished bits where parts make contact (middle where the road wheels roll, teeth where the sprocket engages, etc). The sprocket was painted 4BO. Whitewash was applied all over by whoever and I've seen it even cover headlights, so it's up to you if you want to paint the running gear white or not. If so, it would be very heavily worn.
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Feb 9, 2022 22:00
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Tias posted:Sooo back at painting my OT flame tank, and.. what colour are tracks normally? Track sprockets and chain links? Did they give it all the whitewash/4BO go-over, or would it be more gunmetal? Keep in mind the answer is often "the color of the ground it's driving on."   (That's me in the bottom pic.)
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Feb 9, 2022 22:15
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Cessna posted:That's me in the bottom pic. What A Tanker! 
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Feb 9, 2022 22:55
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Thanks guys. I know it may be small fries to you, but being an insecure goon with shaky hands it means a lot to me that you're always on point with good info and encouragement 
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Feb 10, 2022 10:32
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Tias posted:Thanks guys. I know it may be small fries to you, but being an insecure goon with shaky hands it means a lot to me that you're always on point with good info and encouragement There absolutely no shame in the fact that historical miniature wargaming can feel a bit daunting at times, especially when you are new to a period. But that's also part of the fun, gradually learning more about a subject until you get to a level where you discuss archeological battlefield excavations of buttons and what regiments they would have belonged to. Ask me about putting the wrong backpacks on my first box of French Napoleonic infantrymen. :P
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Feb 10, 2022 11:11
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Tias posted:Thanks guys. I know it may be small fries to you, but being an insecure goon with shaky hands it means a lot to me that you're always on point with good info and encouragement Historicals are scary because “accuracy” but the good rule of thumb we forget often is that “accuracy” doesn’t mean copy the osprey guide. The chaos of supply situations in all wars ever, the poor quality of mass produced dyed uniforms, field repairs, personalisation, ground conditions, weathering and just plain sources being wrong means you can and should just do whatever you think best. A “messy” paint job is more accurate than crisp clean colours when you’re painting a war zone! Edit: lilljonas posted:Ask me about putting the wrong backpacks on my first box of French Napoleonic infantrymen. :P Now that I’ve read that after a long march huge numbers of sabre-briquets would be found scattered behind the grande armée so that they could find more space to tie forage to their backpacks, I no longer care about the right backpacks. lenoon fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 11:30
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lenoon posted:Historicals are scary because “accuracy” but the good rule of thumb we forget often is that “accuracy” doesn’t mean copy the osprey guide. The chaos of supply situations in all wars ever, the poor quality of mass produced dyed uniforms, field repairs, personalisation, ground conditions, weathering and just plain sources being wrong means you can and should just do whatever you think best. This is one of my favorite photos illustrating this. It's scanned from a book as I can't find it online easily:  It's T-34 tanks, probably in 1943. At first glance - yep, T-34s. But when you look closely you can pick out all sorts of variations. The first tank has the raised commander's cupola. The second tank has the large single hatch of earlier models. The third and fourth tanks have the "mickey mouse ears" hatches. The crew are wearing light (either grey or brown) helmets but the crewman by the first tank has a black helmet. Their coveralls are different shades, from light to dark, presumably black. In "game terms" they'd all be just T-34/76s. But when you look at the picture they're all different variations on a theme.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:36
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Only the one in the center is wearing coveralls, it looks like the other two are just wearing tunics. There was also a leather jacket for tank commanders that is often depicted in models. Lots of variants for model builders!
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Feb 10, 2022 17:47
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Ensign Expendable posted:Only the one in the center is wearing coveralls, it looks like the other two are just wearing tunics. The crews working on the tanks appear to be wearing coveralls.
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Feb 10, 2022 18:12
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Cessna posted:This is one of my favorite photos illustrating this. It's scanned from a book as I can't find it online easily:
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Feb 10, 2022 18:37
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I have kind of a dumb Chain of Command question and I can't find the answer in the book. In the German list section for both Panzergrenadiers and Fallschirmjagers, the Squad Leader is listed as an Obergefreiter Junior Leader with a machine pistol, and after that sentence is a new sentence saying "Two panzerfausts." Does that mean that each Obergefreiter is carrying two panzerfausts, or does that mean he has two guys with him each carrying a panzerfaust? I had assumed it was the former, but the Rifle Squad leader's entry is written differently. Am I reading too much into an editing mistake?
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Feb 10, 2022 20:41
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I think that means they have two panzerfausts to hand out to squads.
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Feb 10, 2022 21:25
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spectralent posted:I think that means they have two panzerfausts to hand out to squads. This. You don't need to have minis with the panzerfausts to show who carries them, just note down which sections has them so that they don't magically teleport between squads depending on where the enemy tanks are. Page 41, section anti-tank weapons. Technically it's the rifle team within a section that has them, but unless your rifle team is wiped out before they use it it doesn't matter. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 21:26
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Cessna posted:Keep in mind the answer is often "the color of the ground it's driving on." You're a lovely shade of green, but the yellow flag isn't doing you any favors.
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Feb 10, 2022 21:44
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spectralent posted:I think that means they have two panzerfausts to hand out to squads. lilljonas posted:This. You don't need to have minis with the panzerfausts to show who carries them, just note down which sections has them so that they don't magically teleport between squads depending on where the enemy tanks are. Page 41, section anti-tank weapons. Technically it's the rifle team within a section that has them, but unless your rifle team is wiped out before they use it it doesn't matter. Thanks! That makes a lot more sense.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:04
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Cessna posted:The crews working on the tanks appear to be wearing coveralls. I opened the picture on my phone and didn't even notice them.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:20
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