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Justin_Brett posted:If they still followed the 'evil wish -> good guy Shadow Dragon' logic I wonder what Zamasu's wish would make. goku
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Feb 8, 2022 18:40
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Calaveron posted:I feel like giving actual consequences to the usage of dragon balls, relics so frequently used that the ancient draconic personification of divine alien powers goes oh gosh it's you guys again every time he's summoned for ice cream and a modest sum of money or to turn a lady's clock back a few years, goes against the gag spirit of the series Hold on here mister, when black smoke Shenron first appeared he pulled out a huge cigar from nowhere and started blowing smoke into everybody's eyes to establish that he's not the most trustworthy, its perfectly in line with the gag spirit of the series. Kanos posted:The dragon balls have never been presented as cursed forbidden artifacts so it would be kind of weird if they had a horribly dangerous drawback that no one ever mentioned, including the people who created them. Its definitely a phenomenon in the series that the balls are used as an instant fixit for almost any problem that occurs and even the good wishes can come across as a bit morally dodgy, like wishing that everybody on Earth forget about the Buu saga so that Good Buu can cavort around in public. I don't think its great to be controlling people's memories even if they are really traumatic without their consent. There's also the thing about only bringing back the 'good hearted' people after Buu, I'm not really sure I'd even trust an eternal dragon to start making moral judgements about who gets to live or die. And just generally its been a longstanding and fairly valid complaint that the balls lack of any real downsides sap the series of a lot of dramatic tension. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 18:41
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GT had many good ideas they were just executed in the worst ways possible and everything looked lovely and had an awful color pallete... golden great ape ftw
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Feb 8, 2022 18:45
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was it a dub thing that only good people were resurrected at the end of the Buu arc
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Feb 8, 2022 18:51
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Golden Great Ape is cool since we get to see one of the original ideas for Super Saiyan
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Feb 8, 2022 18:53
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grieving for Gandalf posted:was it a dub thing that only good people were resurrected at the end of the Buu arc No I’m pretty sure that was in the original too
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Feb 8, 2022 19:06
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Larryb posted:No I’m pretty sure that was in the original too that was a hosed up wish
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Feb 8, 2022 19:10
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It was also used as a in-universe justification that 'Vegeta is a good guy for reals now' because he was revived and wasn't expecting it.
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Feb 8, 2022 19:16
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If only good people were revived how is Red Ribbon back? Maybe they never died in the first place
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Feb 8, 2022 19:28
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All the Red Ribbon Army wanted was to make their dear leader taller. It was Goku who was wrong.
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Feb 8, 2022 19:34
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shenron doesnt give a poo poo about human morality
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Feb 8, 2022 19:39
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:shenron doesnt give a poo poo about human morality Yeah, he’ll basically grant any wish regardless of what it is and who’s wishing for it (even some of the early restrictions are removed as the series goes on)
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Feb 8, 2022 19:41
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I like to imagine Shenron heard the wish and decided then and there to just ignore the 'good' part because gently caress doing a morality check on however many billions of people just died
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Feb 8, 2022 19:45
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he doesn't have to, the wish would just bring back everyone from Heaven, everyone who went to Hell stays there Dragon Ball has its own ideas about morality and a cosmic system for it and it doesn't really care about modern ideas of morals
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Feb 8, 2022 19:47
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Black August posted:he doesn't have to, the wish would just bring back everyone from Heaven, everyone who went to Hell stays there I'm not sure if King Yemma would've gotten the whole planet's population processed by the time the wish is made. Surely most people were still in line and Shenron said 'gently caress it.'
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Feb 8, 2022 19:52
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khwarezm posted:Its definitely a phenomenon in the series that the balls are used as an instant fixit for almost any problem that occurs and even the good wishes can come across as a bit morally dodgy, like wishing that everybody on Earth forget about the Buu saga so that Good Buu can cavort around in public. I don't think its great to be controlling people's memories even if they are really traumatic without their consent. There's also the thing about only bringing back the 'good hearted' people after Buu, I'm not really sure I'd even trust an eternal dragon to start making moral judgements about who gets to live or die. Dragon Ball has always operated on a childlike sense of morality. It's how Goku can forgive Vegeta and give him a chance to develop into a good person despite Vegeta deserving punishment or death a million times over, or how Piccolo can be Gohan's dad and everyone's friend despite trying to murder Goku and kidnapping Gohan and forcing him through brutal death training as a child. It's not really interested in deep moral examinations of the actions of the protagonists - see how the series ran away screaming from the idea that Goku is an rear end in a top hat in the ToP. Them wishing for everyone to forget about the Buu Saga isn't some kind of selfish Orwellian mind control wish, it's "Good Buu is a pretty nice guy and it would be sad if everyone hated him for something he had no control over", with no real interest in exploring beyond that. Same with wishing all the "good" people back - it's not a manifesto on desirables vs undesirables. The dramatic tension in Dragon Ball has never been about there being long-standing consequences after a fight, it's whether or not the protagonists will actually survive the fight to begin with. The stakes in the Saiyan Saga were that Vegeta and Nappa would kill everyone and take the dragon balls for themselves. The stakes on Namek were that Freeza would kill everyone and take the dragon balls for himself. The stakes in the Buu saga were that Buu would kill literally everyone. The stakes when Beerus came were that Beerus would get bored and destroy the planet. That's the pattern. The tension is that if the antagonist wins, no one will be left alive to use the dragon balls, not that Goku will have to go to therapy for PTSD because everyone he knows and loves is dead after he defeats the villain. Future Trunks is a cool character but I really wouldn't want the core Dragon Ball setting to mirror his timeline.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:12
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I do wish more hay was made out of Goku wanting to attack and dethrone the gods
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Feb 8, 2022 20:30
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Goku is best friends with the god-emperor of the multiverse and spends like half his time hanging out with the most terrifying destructor god in his universe.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:32
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grieving for Gandalf posted:I do wish more hay was made out of Goku wanting to attack and dethrone the gods he doesn't want to do that when Goku menacingly smiles up at Heaven speaking to Hit, he doesn't have visions of something like Freiza's grand bloody throwdown, he imagines making friends with the Zenos and all the angels/destroyers while he punches everyone all friendly like, and in the end they chill out and then they start to move more, learn more, play more, eat more, and rest more, and suddenly every mortal level is skyrocketing and the entire multiverse is addicted to training
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Feb 8, 2022 20:36
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Kanos posted:Dragon Ball has always operated on a childlike sense of morality. It's how Goku can forgive Vegeta and give him a chance to develop into a good person despite Vegeta deserving punishment or death a million times over, or how Piccolo can be Gohan's dad and everyone's friend despite trying to murder Goku and kidnapping Gohan and forcing him through brutal death training as a child. It's not really interested in deep moral examinations of the actions of the protagonists - see how the series ran away screaming from the idea that Goku is an rear end in a top hat in the ToP. Them wishing for everyone to forget about the Buu Saga isn't some kind of selfish Orwellian mind control wish, it's "Good Buu is a pretty nice guy and it would be sad if everyone hated him for something he had no control over", with no real interest in exploring beyond that. Same with wishing all the "good" people back - it's not a manifesto on desirables vs undesirables. I don't think its asking for Dragonball to be a deep and serious reflection on the morality of using Dragonballs to suggest that maybe there be consequences towards using the balls endlessly to reset everything back to comfortable status quo, and honestly the series has regularly and deliberately taken the balls out of play for storytelling tension. In the earliest days of DB it was a difficult and long journey to gather the balls in the first place and Goku and his friends were always up against a malevolent force who wanted to use the balls for god know's what. King Piccolo literally killed Shenron to try and prevent the balls from being used against him in the future. In the Saiyan saga the death of Piccolo rendered the balls inert (heh) which was the driver of the entire Namek odyssey in the first place, people forget how much of a horrible situation it must have seemed when Vegeta left Earth with half the cast dead, no magic resurrection balls available to undo it and the prospect that Vegeta would inevitably come back stronger or with even worse companions to really wreck up the place. In the Android saga the death of Piccolo and the destruction of the balls is probably the most important thing that happens in terms of turning Future Trunk's timeline into a hellhole and I think that the genuine sense of loss you see, especially with Future Gohan, is a large part of the reason why Trunks and his special episode resonate so deeply for people. That goes double for the Future Trunks saga in Super where he really has to pull out all the stops and go to extreme measures to defend the future since he knows that every little loss won't be undone, and again Zamasu destroys the Super Dragon Balls for similar reasons as King Piccolo. The series has even drawn attention to the fact that the balls are being used far too willy nilly, Old Kai in particular gets mad about this and the perceived disruption to the natural order that overusing the balls are creating, there's even a line about how the Namekians were allowed to create them because of their sense of discipline which is certainly something that the likes of Bulma and Goku do not have. Hell, even Kami himself wanted to not bring back Shenron after his other half killed him because he thought that the balls were becoming too dangerous and not being used properly. The balls have only been used more arbitrarily over time. I'm not really complaining, its funny when Bulma and Frieza want to get younger and taller respectively, its funny when Shu just wishes for some money and its funny when 18 wants a nice present for Krillin, Roshi wants a hot chick and Bulma wants to have the last thing she needs to bend the laws of the universe to her whim, but I think eventually something's got to give and its for good reason that people say that the Black Smoke Shenron saga in GT was at least a good concept, if not execution.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:39
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the dark dragons idea is cool and fun because dragon ball is cool and fun, and it's really fun to imagine "Oh man what if they used the wish orbs so much they overheat and break, releasing 7 cool looking evil guys with dragon power for them to fight, with no wish backups!"
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Feb 8, 2022 20:43
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grieving for Gandalf posted:that was a hosed up wish Shenron probably interpreted it as "ok, so, I'll bring back everyone who didn't have heart trouble, and thus had good hearts." Sucks for people with pacemakers.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:43
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I checked out of the Dragon Ball Super manga after the tournament and now I checked again and it's literally Dragonball Multiverse, what happened?
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Feb 8, 2022 20:45
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hatty posted:If only good people were revived how is Red Ribbon back? Maybe they never died in the first place To be exact. They did not say only good people. They said bring back everyone who died since yesterday, except for the ones that were really evil. Ginyu Frog, Pilaf, and new Red Ribbon guys probably were just not evil enough to count.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:46
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cisneros posted:I checked out of the Dragon Ball Super manga after the tournament and now I checked again and it's literally Dragonball Multiverse, what happened? dragon ball super is good and not bad like multiverse
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Feb 8, 2022 20:49
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cisneros posted:I checked out of the Dragon Ball Super manga after the tournament and now I checked again and it's literally Dragonball Multiverse, what happened? Which tournament? There hasn't been Multiverse stuff since ToP. Unless you're referring to the quality of writing.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:56
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Black August posted:the dark dragons idea is cool and fun because dragon ball is cool and fun, and it's really fun to imagine "Oh man what if they used the wish orbs so much they overheat and break, releasing 7 cool looking evil guys with dragon power for them to fight, with no wish backups!" It's too bad they have no personality and are entirely forgettable, both ability and design wise. The most fun one is Cigar Shenron. Much like almost everything GT really I will say the idea in of itself is really fun though, and definitely seems like a Toriyama idea telephoned into mediocre trash Speaking of GT, was the music redone in the West like Z as well? Because I often fondly remember some of Falconer's Z soundtracks, but GT just felt like wierd noise immitating it TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 22:54
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GT music was redone in the West, yes. I dunno why they made every single song as forgettable as possible, but it was certainly a design choice.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:13
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I forget, was the Japanese soundtrack for GT any better in that regard?
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Feb 8, 2022 23:39
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i am just here to inform everyone that the latin american GT opening slaps and I still get teary eyed whenever I hear it
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Feb 8, 2022 23:53
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Larryb posted:I forget, was the Japanese soundtrack for GT any better in that regard? I know that the opening theme is apparently beloved in Japan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tndKYpPz2RU Also, this part is great: 
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Feb 8, 2022 23:54
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The worst thing about how Dragonball got exported to the west in the 90s is how they deprived us of the awesome original theme songs and instead we got Rock the Dragon, which is only suited for ironic enjoyment. E; and, more topically, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCa4LaDFqJU khwarezm fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Feb 9, 2022 |
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Feb 9, 2022 00:00
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khwarezm posted:The worst thing about how Dragonball got exported to the west in the 90s is how they deprived us of the awesome original theme songs and instead we got Rock the Dragon, which is only suited for ironic enjoyment. And then that absolutely lovely GT Rap jesus christ It's like they watched/ played 3rd strike and went "how can we do this really terribly?" That gif from the GT opening is pretty great though I also wish we had gotten more of the Japanese songs in Z sometimes, like the Totusentai theme and the Ginyu battle music owns And I'm sorry but Makafushigi Adventure loving slaps to this day, and is the loving theme of all of Dragonball to me. Such a great song
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Feb 9, 2022 00:06
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:GT music was redone in the West, yes. in "the west" or in America?
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Feb 9, 2022 00:12
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TulliusCicero posted:
I don't know if this was in the original Japanese edit but one my favorite bits in Battle of the Gods is when that theme kicks in when the Pilaf gang are freaking out about Goten. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0iDcC0fD4
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Feb 9, 2022 00:15
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I forgot Day of Fate for Gohan's SSJ2 Rage. Holy poo poo that scene is stunning
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Feb 9, 2022 00:21
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Siegkrow posted:in "the west" or in America? America, we had this weird industrial soundtrack that was awful. Larryb posted:I forget, was the Japanese soundtrack for GT any better in that regard? The JP GT soundtrack is fine, but not really anything to write home about. Dandan is like the only noteworthy thing about its music.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:24
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The thing to know about the JP GT soundtrack is in one of the dvd releases Funimation put the original music back in to GT, but the narrator remained the same. Idk how many people remember the narrator but it was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSwDPXIIsaU And it would play with this in the background https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwSLrKgfBr4 And the dissonance between the two was incredible
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Feb 9, 2022 00:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:To be exact. They did not say only good people. They said bring back everyone who died since yesterday, except for the ones that were really evil. Ginyu Frog, Pilaf, and new Red Ribbon guys probably were just not evil enough to count. Between being a magical dragon immune to consequences whose own morality seems to end at "Freeza was a dick and his people are annoying I'm at least going to bring him back in pieces" and the sheer scale and complication of that request, Shenron wisely decided to be incredibly high in his standards for "really evil."
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Feb 9, 2022 02:28
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What was with that trend of redoing the musical scores anyway? Didn't some other localized anime do it as well?
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Feb 9, 2022 02:50
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