Trad Games Chat: squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Trad Games Chat: squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded

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Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Captain Walker posted:

Oh good, glad we moved on from piss discussion. Thread title should really be Trad Games Chat - Arivia posted:

Here's a dumb DM question: my group plays 5e, but we don't really want to play 5e, if you know what I mean. It's the only thing everyone knows, but combat is a real slog no matter what I do. Any time I make the players roll initiative it should be a big deal narratively. This raises a few topics that I've always struggled with, and that hopefully smarter 5e DMs have answered:

-How to run a quick battle without initiative or a grid; anything where the PCs will expend some resources (hp, spell slots, ki) but won't die
-Making proper battles more interesting and challenging, so the people who did optimize for combat get the satisfaction of using their big money spells
-Encounters that don't involve battle at all, but still risk player resources

So others have suggested that you play a different system but I'm going to just make a firm suggestion that you should at least do a one shot of Apocalypse World. A lot of it is free!

http://www.apocalypse-world.com/

Within indie RPGs it's arguably the biggest touchstone with the most influence (admittedly, small pond), and it's very easy to get people into it - the core premise is "Mad Max" which basically everybody gets and loves, and the game was originally designed to be run at cons so you can get somebody up to "functional" with the rules in about 5 minutes. It also comes from a radically different design sensibility than DnD, so in terms of bang for you buck on 'amount of effort' to 'new things you'll learn about RPGs,' it's pretty much the maximum.

It isn't that similar to what you asked for but I think that it's very valuable to explore the space, push yourself, see what's out there, and this is not only very different from DnD it will also make it easier to discuss with other RPG nerds since so much of AW's approach has become part of the lingua franca of RPGs.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 02:39

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# ? May 25, 2024 00:11

BlackIronHeart: Aug 2, 2004; PROCEED

Tulip posted:

So others have suggested that you play a different system but I'm going to just make a firm suggestion that you should at least do a one shot of Apocalypse World. A lot of it is free!

I second this recommendation but I want to add that if you do decide to run Apocalypse World, read the Master of Ceremonies section. For real. If you're thinking to yourself, 'Nah, I'm good, I've run D&D a bunch' then you should read it twice.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 02:55

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

BlackIronHeart posted:

I second this recommendation but I want to add that if you do decide to run Apocalypse World, read the Master of Ceremonies section. For real. If you're thinking to yourself, 'Nah, I'm good, I've run D&D a bunch' then you should read it twice.

All GMs should read that. Especially before they read any DMG.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 03:36

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

BlackIronHeart posted:

I second this recommendation but I want to add that if you do decide to run Apocalypse World, read the Master of Ceremonies section. For real. If you're thinking to yourself, 'Nah, I'm good, I've run D&D a bunch' then you should read it twice.

If you don't decide to run Apocalypse World, read the MC section anyway. No matter what game you're gonna run, it is great advice.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 03:54

FirstAidKite: Nov 8, 2009

Maxwell Lord posted:

Is there a Romero analogue in this too?

Unfortunately not. The closest is the cemetery which doesn't explicitly mention or reference any of Romero's films and the idea of a fantasy world having a zombie problem is hardly enough proof for me to comfortably say "yeah that's the part referencing Romero."

quote:

Cemetery
Crusts roam the edges, but it�s far too dangerous to be there for long. Skeletons, zombies, and worse roam the cemetery. An adventurer could make a
pretty penny running contraband across the cemetery away from the eyes of
Randians and Birds, if they can get from one side to the other alive.

e: 1 thing of note that I really like is that because Pittsburgh has so many bridges (real life count is 446), they've included a little tidbit about how every single bridge has a troll. The trolls are like hermit crabs, with bigger bridges housing bigger trolls, and the trolls end up forming gangs of goblins to collect tolls or valuables from anyone looking to use the bridges. Makes me imagine something like The Warriors but all trolls and goblins.

FirstAidKite fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Feb 9, 2022

# ? Feb 9, 2022 04:09

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Captain Walker posted:

Oh good, glad we moved on from piss discussion. Thread title should really be Trad Games Chat - Arivia posted:

Here's a dumb DM question: my group plays 5e, but we don't really want to play 5e, if you know what I mean. It's the only thing everyone knows, but combat is a real slog no matter what I do. Any time I make the players roll initiative it should be a big deal narratively. This raises a few topics that I've always struggled with, and that hopefully smarter 5e DMs have answered:

-How to run a quick battle without initiative or a grid; anything where the PCs will expend some resources (hp, spell slots, ki) but won't die
-Making proper battles more interesting and challenging, so the people who did optimize for combat get the satisfaction of using their big money spells
-Encounters that don't involve battle at all, but still risk player resources

Ryuutama is a lighter D&D in many ways. It�s more focused on overland travel but it does have a very simple and straightforward combat system, too. You could look to it at least for designing noncombat encounters and settings for players that might help spice things up?

Or I�m sure people could list off a million other OSR or D&Dalike games with faster, smoother combat?

If you�re really resolved to find ways to run interesting combat encounters for 5e, you might want to try asking the 5e thread for some suggestions on modules to look at for good encounters or see if anyone there is interested in sharing combat encounters they were proud of designing. It might give you a good metric but also you can lift and reflavor things for your own game.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 06:55

Glazius: Jul 22, 2007; Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.; Clapping Larry

Sionak posted:

Hard agree. I so wanted to enjoy and run Mouse Guard and the art from the comic is gorgeous. But the Mouse Guard RPG does not want to share its contents and heaven help you if you need to look something up at the table.

This has really not been my experience at all. Mouse Guard was my easiest on-point into that whole system, mostly because mice are just rolling d6s = skill, +1 per source of help whether that's a wise, a tool, or another guard, and trying to get 4s. They know how many successes they need because you the GM are setting it up and either rolling the rating for something that opposes them (from the denizens chapter) or giving them a fixed number of successes to hit based on the static skill factors (from the skills or, rarely, attributes chapter).

The only weird thing the book does is put character creation at the very end, after it's explained how to use everything you're actually putting on that sheet. It starts with some sample character sheets for a patrol of mice from the comic and uses those as its examples throughout, and honestly I kinda like that way of going about things? It's not asking you to make decisions about something the book won't cover for a hundred pages.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 08:26

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

If you want a fantasy adventuring RPG with actual mechanics for overland travel and without filler combat there's also always The One Ring. The first edition is one of the best games ever made, and the second edition just came out (I'm still not done reading through it to figure out if the changes are all good). It just flat out does not support players being murderhobos.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Feb 9, 2022

# ? Feb 9, 2022 13:43

Sionak: Dec 20, 2005; Mind flay the gap.

Glazius posted:

This has really not been my experience at all. Mouse Guard was my easiest on-point into that whole system, mostly because mice are just rolling d6s = skill, +1 per source of help whether that's a wise, a tool, or another guard, and trying to get 4s. They know how many successes they need because you the GM are setting it up and either rolling the rating for something that opposes them (from the denizens chapter) or giving them a fixed number of successes to hit based on the static skill factors (from the skills or, rarely, attributes chapter).

The only weird thing the book does is put character creation at the very end, after it's explained how to use everything you're actually putting on that sheet. It starts with some sample character sheets for a patrol of mice from the comic and uses those as its examples throughout, and honestly I kinda like that way of going about things? It's not asking you to make decisions about something the book won't cover for a hundred pages.

I'm sure it was way easier than other Luke Crane games, but I still struggled with using it as an entry point.

I do think encouraging the pregens is a pretty good idea, as is explaining mechanics before getting to character creation. The "flip back and forth between four sections" approach to character generation has always been pretty difficult, especially for new players.

I think grassy gnoll's point is good in regards to RPG books in general. Many of them haven't decided if they're trying to be an instructional text for learning the game or a reference while running the game. As a result, they don't do a great job with either.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 14:44

hyphz: Aug 5, 2003; Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.; Unlockable Ben

Fragged Kingdom has two combat systems, one for detailed tactical resolution and one for quicker resolution of less important combat. It's.. not the easiest book to read, though.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 14:52

Mirage: Oct 27, 2000; All is for the best, in this, the best of all possible worlds

It's possible to run D&D in an Apocalypse World-ly fashion, where the players have story autonomy and there's more options in encounters than stabbing monsters for XP. You have to house-rule huge chunks of it, though.

My current DM is pretty good about awarding XP for avoiding combat at approximately the same rate as completing it; talking our way out of an extremely precarious encounter with a dragon, for example, netted us some big points. Solving problems and getting past traps also gets us XP bonuses about equal to fighting monsters that would hurt us the same amount if we had failed. We level up more quickly this way, but that's a feature, not a bug. It also keeps us role-playing.

Combine that approach with something like Fellowship's Long Journey mechanic, where the players create their own obstacles to overcome, and you can make overworld travel fun again (if the DM doesn't mind players creating new details within their carefully crafted game universe).

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:07

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Mirage posted:

It's possible to run D&D in an Apocalypse World-ly fashion, where the players have story autonomy and there's more options in encounters than stabbing monsters for XP. You have to house-rule huge chunks of it, though.

There's Dungeon World that's literally this. Too bad about one of the creators.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:09

grassy gnoll: Aug 27, 2006; The pawsting business is tough work.

Glazius posted:

This has really not been my experience at all. Mouse Guard was my easiest on-point into that whole system, mostly because mice are just rolling d6s = skill, +1 per source of help whether that's a wise, a tool, or another guard, and trying to get 4s. They know how many successes they need because you the GM are setting it up and either rolling the rating for something that opposes them (from the denizens chapter) or giving them a fixed number of successes to hit based on the static skill factors (from the skills or, rarely, attributes chapter).

The only weird thing the book does is put character creation at the very end, after it's explained how to use everything you're actually putting on that sheet. It starts with some sample character sheets for a patrol of mice from the comic and uses those as its examples throughout, and honestly I kinda like that way of going about things? It's not asking you to make decisions about something the book won't cover for a hundred pages.

I admit I am personally more allergic to Craneisms than most people, which is a big part of my dislike. Still, you're correct that the book doesn't ask you to make decisions on information it hasn't covered yet, but it goes the opposite direction. It asks you to repeatedly reference information scattered throughout the rest of the book during both chargen and live play, instead of consolidating everything into one concise chapter. It's a wretched idea for a reference book, and it's not particularly adept at actually teaching you play, either.

Compare to Fragged Empire, which is pretty trash at teaching you how to play both textually and via layout, but is a pretty solid reference book once you know what it's doing.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:10

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Combining tutorial and reference is very challenging. Not impossible, but I'm sympathetic to the difficulty.

I continue to think that game authors might be best-served by separating these tasks; a "how to play" book/pdf in one hand, and a (hyperlinked, online) rules reference in the other. The how to play book can have all the premium art, bits of fiction, cool ideas, etc. too. Also Actual Plays produced by the game writer can demonstrate "how these rules work in practice" better than third parties who almost always wind up misinterpreting something, making house rules, etc. in the course of doing their own videos.

The best thing about moving your rules reference to a free online hyperlinked tool (a wiki, for example) is that you can apply errata or even straight up upgrade the rules at low cost to both yourself and your players. A big disadvantage is that some players want to game entirely offline, and be put off by having to go online to access a reference. It'd also make it easier for people to play for free without buying your book. You can try locking your rules reference behind an account that costs money, but people will just clone it... then again, people just copy & share PDFs of your game books anyway, if they don't feel like paying you, so that cat's long since out of the bag anyway.

Anyway if I ever make a RPG, that's how I intend to approach it. The documents for my game will be targeted to specific purpose, no single catch-all tome of everything.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:21

CitizenKeen: Nov 13, 2003; easygoing pedant

I've been eyeballing a used copy of Mouse Guard at my FLGS; shame to hear its full of Craneisms as well. I like Torchbearer, but want a broader scope and less grind.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:24

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Leperflesh posted:

Combining tutorial and reference is very challenging. Not impossible, but I'm sympathetic to the difficulty.

I continue to think that game authors might be best-served by separating these tasks; a "how to play" book/pdf in one hand, and a (hyperlinked, online) rules reference in the other. The how to play book can have all the premium art, bits of fiction, cool ideas, etc. too. Also Actual Plays produced by the game writer can demonstrate "how these rules work in practice" better than third parties who almost always wind up misinterpreting something, making house rules, etc. in the course of doing their own videos.

The best thing about moving your rules reference to a free online hyperlinked tool (a wiki, for example) is that you can apply errata or even straight up upgrade the rules at low cost to both yourself and your players. A big disadvantage is that some players want to game entirely offline, and be put off by having to go online to access a reference. It'd also make it easier for people to play for free without buying your book. You can try locking your rules reference behind an account that costs money, but people will just clone it... then again, people just copy & share PDFs of your game books anyway, if they don't feel like paying you, so that cat's long since out of the bag anyway.

Anyway if I ever make a RPG, that's how I intend to approach it. The documents for my game will be targeted to specific purpose, no single catch-all tome of everything.

I've got the Black Box D&D Basic Set and it's basically like this. "Dragon Cards" as a tutorial to teach the game, and separately a rules reference organized to be used at the table.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:24

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

CitizenKeen posted:

I've been eyeballing a used copy of Mouse Guard at my FLGS; shame to hear its full of Craneisms as well. I like Torchbearer, but want a broader scope and less grind.

I�m also a weirdo who�s bizarrely tolerant of wizard-speak, so grain of salt, but if you could follow Torchbearer then Mouse Guard should be a cake walk. I actually found Torchbearer to be the most difficult to parse cause it�s wizard-talk wearing a grognard costume most of the time.

Mouse Guard has problems as a book, but the hard parts are in how the information is laid out and needing to read the whole book ; the prose itself is actually pretty light and enjoyable as far as a set of instructions is gonna get. Plus the book itself as just an object is very pretty in a twee way.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:32

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

There are 24 hours left on the crowdfunding for Ariadne and Bob!

You can back it on Kickstarter, Indiegogo, or itch.io.

Here are some reasons why you should back it:

1. The game owns. It's been hilarious every single time we've played it.

2. It's all the best parts of GMing and being a player at the same time, and you get to divide up which part of being a GM you want. Do you want to describe weird poo poo? Come up with clever resolutions? Play a bunch of funny characters? There's a role just for you!

3. It's the perfect game for when someone cancels or flakes on your regular campaign. No prep, complete story in one session, doesn't need lots of players.

4. The guest playsets and variants are going to be amazing. Vel is working on one where the evil genius is constantly thwarted by her good-hearted but naive partner. Ettin is bringing us some cool Cyberpunk poo poo. Austin Ramsay is making one where the duo is a mech pilot and their mech. Nick Butler is adding a new role focusing on the recurring villain who opposes our pair. And Jason Pitre is going to be writing up some fun plane-hopping stuff based on Sig.

5. You're supporting cool goon designers like Vel Mini and Ettin, and art by Ferrinus.

6. Since we're talking about Luke Crane again, I promise not to use wizard speak and instead simply communicate like a normal human. (I'm not sure if any of us here are truly normal, but I think I can fake it alright.)

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:32

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Absurd Alhazred posted:

There's Dungeon World that's literally this. Too bad about one of the creators.

TBH I think if you want that it's probably better to just run AW and say it's fantasy.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:33

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

so few players seem willing to read books and learn rules through study that i'm sympathetic to anyone who doesn't bother making their books function as tutorials

not making your books function as reference documents is just a disservice to everyone, though

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:45

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

so few players seem willing to read books and learn rules through study that i'm sympathetic to anyone who doesn't bother making their books function as tutorials

not making your books function as reference documents is just a disservice to everyone, though

What about making it accessible to the GM so they can actually learn how to run your game?

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:45

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.