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Dryzen posted:I think you misunderstand some of the reasons people have given for why the tank HP could be getting low. I’m personally not saying that every healer is playing perfectly ideal by doing this, I’m saying that there’s more factors to just the healer not pressing their buttons optimally that can make the tank HP go so low in these situations. Especially in the expert dungeons we have right now, bad DPS is probably what makes tank HP drop so low if nobody is dying, cause I don’t see how that means the healer or tank aren’t trying to stay alive. It just feels like the "last HP is the only one that matters" comes across as almost antagonistic since some people make it sound like it doesn't matter if it's done intentionally or not, because it comes across as a logic that can be stretched to it's limit of "so long as you clear the content."
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Feb 10, 2022 20:08
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Dryzen posted:I think you misunderstand, the situation here isn’t that a group is wiping because the healer isn’t pressing their buttons, it’s that the tank HP gets low before the healer presses their buttons. The leap of logic people are making here is that the tank HP surely must be getting low because the healer is never pressing their buttons. People are saying "the only HP that matters is the last there is no reason to ever heal above 5%" when discussing random pub dungeons. You don't need to heal to full at all times but having wiggle room is nice when you have no idea of your tanks capabilities. If you are running premade then fine but in random parties you should probably remember that your tank has 0 idea if you are comfy or flailing.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:13
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I mean it's not antagonistic, it's a statement of fact. The game only has functional two health states - alive and dead. HP exists only as the cushion between those two states. A tank at Incoming Damage+1 HP tanks exactly as well as a full health tank, but healers do heal that HP better the lower the health gets. Yeah a bunch of healers are really bad and will just let the tank die because they are bad, but also healers who overheal are bad. Not as bad, but they're still playing poorly. The root of this dumb derail was some one saying a healer letting your HP getting low was either incompetent or being a dick and nah, they're not being a dick they're playing their role well. TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 20:13
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I haven’t touched healers ever since I found out Conjurer was not a DPS job, so are there any with heal spells that get more potent the lower your target’s HP is?
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Feb 10, 2022 20:20
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TGLT posted:I mean it's not antagonistic, it's a statement of fact. The game only has two health states - alive and dead. HP exists only as the cushion between those two states. A tank at Incoming Damage+1 HP tanks exactly as well as a full health tank, but healers do heal that HP better the lower the health gets. "The boss has two states, alive or dead, ergo, so long as it dies, it doesn't matter if I used my mitigation or rotation well or not, since mistakes happen and it's the healer's job to fix them" Like maybe I just have total Sage brain, but I feel like its not too hard to keep my damage up and not need to let the tank get low. Not letting the tank get low also has the added benefit of not having them panic and start using clemency, or popping mitigation that would be better spread out.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:21
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Regalingualius posted:I haven’t touched healers ever since I found out Conjurer was not a DPS job, so are there any with heal spells that get more potent the lower your target’s HP is? Astrologian has one and Bene is technically higher pot the lower the JP.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:21
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TGLT posted:A tank at Incoming Damage+1 HP tanks exactly as well as a full health tank, but healers do heal that HP better the lower the health gets. Very few abilities heal better the lower the person is - Benediction, where 1hp would be the immaculate ideal, and Essential Dignity, which reaches maximum potential at 30%. That leaves a huge range and a huge toolkit where you can heal above critical and not overheal, which is the goal. There's just a dickwaving contest going on with a couple people trying to be edge, because they're so hard core they don't heal anyone with that has more than double digit hitpoints.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:21
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This is why I don’t advocate min/maxing dps as a healer if the content doesn’t require you to, all it does is create slap fights on what is proper healer technique when it doesn’t really matter and no one is going to notice if a leveling dungeon took a minute or two longer to complete than it could have. On top of that taking a ‘damage is king’ mindset just makes it so the dps suddenly become the most important part of the team and that rear end in a top hat BLM who sits in his ley lines eating mechanics is in the right to tell you to adjust as ultimately maximizing his uptime matters more than yours.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:22
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TGLT posted:healers who overheal are bad. Not as bad, but they're still playing poorly. if they're sticking to ogcds they're doing exactly as well as the optimal healer, and they're probably pissing off the tank less too
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Feb 10, 2022 20:22
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Regalingualius posted:I haven’t touched healers ever since I found out Conjurer was not a DPS job, so are there any with heal spells that get more potent the lower your target’s HP is? Essential Dignity on Astro for one gets stronger up (down?) to 30%. Benediction is always a full heal, which means the lower their health the more effectively potent it was. Sage doesn't actually have one that I can think of, but you still don't want to overheal because that's wasting potency on nothing. I haven't really played Scholar much since I swapped to Astro in Heavensward so I dunno much about them other than they're nerds. edit: Venuz Patrol posted:if they're sticking to ogcds they're doing exactly as well as the optimal healer, and they're probably pissing off the tank less too I mean, if they're playing White Mage and Astro and they're not maximizing their Benediction/Dignities then they're not. I'm not going to pretend it's some huge gulf of effectiveness but it's a place they can improve and improvement is cool and fun. Oxyclean posted:On average, yes, the healer is not being a dick, but it if you're sitting on oGCD heals/cooldowns that won't overheal the tank, that is not playing the role well just because the tank isn't dead. Content also has a clear time, so the more efficient you play the bigger your cool deeps and the faster you get your poo poo. Yeah a boss only has a few states but it's gonna take a lot longer if I decide to do my funny warrior AoE rotation because it makes me look like a helicopter. Or not use my mitigation and force the healer to not do damage. Keeping the tank alive doesn't have that caveat. TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 20:22
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People are making a lot of weird assumptions here
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Feb 10, 2022 20:28
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It’s very common for a pull to go longer than expected if the DPS aren’t contributing enough and now you find your tank with no CDs but you’ve been mindlessly pressing art of war and oh no the tank is low on HP! There’s hundreds of hypotheticals you can make up for this, but I think trying to attribute malice or incompetence to them is a bit silly if nobody is dying
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Feb 10, 2022 20:29
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Playing chicken with the tank's HP is fun.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:43
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literally the most fun you can have in this game is dueling with your cohealer in trials or alliance roulette seeing who'll crack and heal first
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Feb 10, 2022 20:44
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I try not to let the tank get too low because I'm bad at healing but I still try to do as much dps as possible anyway I also get antsy when my health gets too low as a tank but if I see the healer's a WHM or AST I remember oh wait they're just flexing it's all cool But if they're not and I die then eh, and we all have a bit of a chuckle.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:46
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That little lurch in your chest you get when your hp goes into triple digits only to bounce back up at the last second is one of the best thrills of tanking.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:49
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Vitamean posted:literally the most fun you can have in this game is dueling with your cohealer in trials or alliance roulette seeing who'll crack and heal first I want the inverse of the character who only wants to heal from the conjurer quests
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Feb 10, 2022 20:49
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Vitamean posted:literally the most fun you can have in this game is dueling with your cohealer in trials or alliance roulette seeing who'll crack and heal first its good but one day you'll develop a tolerance and have to move up to doing it in savage parse groups to catch the same high.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:53
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Ruzihm posted:its good but one day you'll develop a tolerance and have to move up to doing it in savage parse groups to catch the same high. There's probably a game that can be played of "how many extra LB3s can we build by maximizing the number of critical health heals we apply"
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Feb 10, 2022 20:57
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Thundarr posted:There's probably a game that can be played of "how many extra LB3s can we build by maximizing the number of critical health heals we apply" even better this is actually what you do in ucob by stacking less people in twintania to generate more LB
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Feb 10, 2022 20:59
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Ibram Gaunt posted:That little lurch in your chest you get when your hp goes into triple digits only to bounce back up at the last second is one of the best thrills of tanking. wish i still had the screenshot but i saw 8 hp at one point in... StB I think, playing as warrior but holmgang was down
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Feb 10, 2022 21:01
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Ciaphas posted:now i want a bar for the tank's health-derivative over the last x seconds lol This would unironically be extremely useful and honestly probably more useful than "yeah they're at half". In terms of healing, as a Sage I can't really play chicken the same way I did on Astro but you bet your bottom dollar that on AST I wouldn't even think about stopping the Gravity train until someone was in the 30% range. I know what I'm capable of, and if I miscalculated, enough groups were fine with "poo poo, my b, was a little too greedy for DPS there  " that it never was really an issue.Either that, or I got one of the loving weirdo PLDs who mandate that they're topped at all times and spammed Clemency on themselves.
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Feb 10, 2022 21:07
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Ciaphas posted:wish i still had the screenshot but i saw 8 hp at one point in... StB I think, playing as warrior but holmgang was down I've definitely lived through a few things solely by my Roe bonus hp
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Feb 10, 2022 21:15
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if the tank is low on hp then we all know it's the dps' fault for being poo poo and not killing things faster
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Feb 10, 2022 21:39
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a cartoon duck posted:if the tank is low on hp then we all know it's the dps' fault for being poo poo and not killing things faster
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Feb 10, 2022 21:39
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i want to clarify this isn't sarcasm, the worst thing that can happen to a tank and healer in a dungeon is lovely dps
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Feb 10, 2022 21:40
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I press the Hamia button once and the tank's HP never goes below 90% for the entire pull am I a bad healer y/n
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Feb 10, 2022 21:45
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a cartoon duck posted:i want to clarify this isn't sarcasm, the worst thing that can happen to a tank and healer in a dungeon is lovely dps It's also the worst thing that can happen to a DPS when the other DPS is utter trash and you're basically killing everything yourself.
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Feb 10, 2022 21:55
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Hogama posted:Assize is a dps cooldown and MP refresh, the healing is incidental. Also, the sooner a WHM gets to use Benediction the sooner it can be used again - it can be cast 3 times in a 10 minute run! 4 times, no? As a tank who does way too many pub runs that I don't need, it's really more the DPS I'm evaluating than the healer. I don't care how low I dip, or even how long I stay there, or even if I die if it's one of the harder pulls of the game. But I do get cranky if I've exhausted my allotment of CDs for the pull and everything's still at 40%. Let's face it - tossing out another cd that I really need to save for the next double pull because all the mobs still have substantial life is going to slow down the run significantly more because I'm going to have to, ugh, single pull the next couple, and possibly the whole dungeon. So I guess I'd say I'd rather the healer do as much damage as possible to help out so long as I'm alive. I trust you to do your job, and if I die I'm not offended or anything - things happen, and penalties for death are low (and I get my CDs back anyway releasing). Actually that is a thing that annoys me - when I go down (almost) everyone immediately Swiftrezes me. Why not use that swift to keep me from dying in the first place??? **Edit** Yeah, agreeing with the people above that it's usually a dps problem.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:06
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Ryanbomber posted:I press the Hamia button once and the tank's HP never goes below 90% for the entire pull am I a bad healer y/n I would love to know how you use a single Hamia that way. Can you post a video or something?
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Feb 10, 2022 22:06
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Thundarr posted:It's also the worst thing that can happen to a DPS when the other DPS is utter trash and you're basically killing everything yourself. That's a very mean thing to say about Alisaie.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:12
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derra posted:Let's face it - tossing out another cd that I really need to save for the next double pull because all the mobs still have substantial life is going to slow down the run significantly more because I'm going to have to, ugh, single pull the next couple, and possibly the whole dungeon. Just get the DPS so lovely your cooldowns start coming back by the time you finally get to the next pull, problem solves itself
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Feb 10, 2022 22:13
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As a Warrior I have to say sometimes Bloodletting is off cooldown and I did something dumb with my mitigations and I do need healing once in a while! Bloodwhetting lasts 8 seconds, it has a cooldown of 25 seconds, that's 17 seconds I could maybe need a heal if Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle aren't off CD!
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Feb 10, 2022 23:04
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Thundarr posted:There's probably a game that can be played of "how many extra LB3s can we build by maximizing the number of critical health heals we apply" Stormblood raid spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprrwi572xA This was patched for content after Stormblood so that the LB generation does not do nearly as much in the same situation for precisely this reason.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:09
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ImpAtom posted:I would love to know how you use a single Hamia that way. Can you post a video or something? You caught me in my intricate lie I have to press Kerachole too
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Feb 10, 2022 23:21
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Casting Hamia should give you a ham
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Feb 10, 2022 23:23
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Hyper Inferno posted:Stormblood raid spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprrwi572xA dunno if they fixed it yet but there is/was a glitch where you do this but your sch summons their fairy which'll do continuous tiny heals that count for critical healing each time
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Feb 10, 2022 23:27
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Kerrzhe posted:if i'm tanking as a warrior i play like i don't have a healer I am full 580 except 590 weapon on WAR, and I still need heals in the exdr trash pulls at least. Just take too much between bloodwhetting CDs even with a mitigation up and my self-regen ticking. I don’t need a lot of healing, but it has to be there! I love you healers!
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Feb 10, 2022 23:55
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I basically never need to use a gcd heal at 90 on AST besides Macrocosmos if everyone's awake. You just get so many ogcds there's never any need for it unless the tank refuses to use cooldowns or the DPS are watching netflix. It does feel like even at 580 crap hits harder than it did in 5.4 or 5.5, but I think that's just a start-of-expansion thing; I remember the 5.0 exdr dungeons feeling a lot tougher when they were new.
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Feb 11, 2022 00:13
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Subjunctive posted:I am full 580 except 590 weapon on WAR, and I still need heals in the exdr trash pulls at least. Just take too much between bloodwhetting CDs even with a mitigation up and my self-regen ticking. You’re not using your cooldowns and self heals effectively. War doesn’t need any heals with full 580 in sigmascape or smileton and doesn’t need them with full 570 in the ends. Try to not overstack your debuffs right at the start and make sure you’re using all of your buttons. You have self heals with thrill, equilibrium, shake it off, and bloodwhetting. You have shields from shake and bloodwhetting. And you’ve got damage mitigation from arm’s length, reprisal, vengeance, rampart, and bloodwhetting. There’s plenty in your toolbox to keep you up even without a healer. There are a few good buttons that work great together. For example, you can let your health drop after bloodwhetting goes off without using any other mitigation. Once you hit 50% or so, pop holmgang. You can chill at 1 hp til 3 seconds left, hit thrill of the battle and then equilibrium along with vengeance. At this point your health should be back to 60% or so, your buffed equilibrium regen will keep your health up, and bloodwhetting will be nearly off cooldown. You can shake it off if you need a few seconds extra. This leaves you with a bunch of cooldowns ready to go for the next pull. With enough DPS you won’t even make it to the second bloodwhetting and you’re on to the next pack.
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