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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you should figure out what market is for the job, that is an important skill and thing to do and you have not yet done it This is arguably better first rule than 'never say a number'.
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Feb 11, 2022 19:24
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81sidewinder posted:This is arguably better first rule than 'never say a number'. it is but is not simple enough for most people who do things like hear a salary range and think that is market
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Feb 11, 2022 19:34
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Hi I need some feedback. I'm a software eng in NYC, which may inform these numbers. (My current base salary is 178k, I recieved a 20k bonus this year, equity has some value but lol) Here's a couple things that have happened to me during my job search: - recruiter flat out tells me asking for $185k is a bit low, agrees that $200k sounds reasonable (yes I broke the rule of saying a number first) - friend with similar experience accepts an offer at $220k (series D startup, not anything wacky like crypto) After this I have high expectations and that's probably loving me up really badly. I have received 3 job offers: Company 1 - public company, "we loved you! but we've leveled you lower and the high end for the salary range is $167k and no guarantees, we need to get approval for that" - I rejected this flat out. Company 2 - startup recently acquired by a larger public company. I like them. they offered me $175k + 15k bonus first day + 15k at one year + up to 25% bonus for performance (not guaranteed). I told them I'm waiting on other offers and will get back to them Company 3 - Series B startup. I like them the best I think. Got on a call and I told them about my other offer. They were like, ok well ours is lower, lets see what we can do before we put it in front of you (lol). So I get on the next call and they offer me $180k + $10k signing + stock options. I was honest and told them everything. My current salary, my other offer, what the recruiter told me, what my friend was offered. Sorry I broke all the rules, I wanted to explain that I'm still not that happy with the offer and I thought it was important for them to understand the context that I'm evaluating this offer in. I have another call with the CTO tomorrow (saturday lol) where he wants to go over the stock option valuation because he very badly wants me to value that as compensation. Is there any hope for this or should I just keep interviewing? I can stay at my current job, they might even give me a raise if I tell them I'm leaving, but the company is rather embarrassing. I don't like changing things, it makes me uncomfortable and I was really hoping for a massive raise to make it feel ok. It's possible that my QoL would improve at one of these other companies but I can't know that for sure. My QoL is certainly low when I'm actively interviewing, lol. Company 3 already came back with an improved offer but it still sucks compared to my expectations and is lower in cash comp than company 2. Am I just stupid thinking that I'm not going to be able to negotiate more out of this? Are my expectations way too high? I'm waiting on one more possible offer but I can't help but be disappointed that the best offer I'm getting is so much lower than what I know someone else getting and not really more than my current comp. I also feel like a stupid rear end in a top hat for complaining about the best job offers I've ever received but, I've never received so many direct signals that this is under market value. Usually when I get a new job it's a big raise and I'm stoked, but right now I'm just uncomfortable and don't know what to do. It's not like making more money would make me happier or improve my QoL, but I realize that it is important for my future to not leave money on the table. Sorry for all the words, sorry for complaining, I don't know where else to talk about this.
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Feb 11, 2022 19:41
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I'm guessing that was an outside recruiter telling you the initial ask was "a bit low", lol
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Feb 11, 2022 19:43
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priznat posted:I'm guessing that was an outside recruiter telling you the initial ask was "a bit low", lol lol no she was internal for some startup. I was actually correcting my initial ask that she pulled from Hired.com where I am required to list salary expectations. Her exact words were "Yeah, $185k is a bit low. You'll get offers higher than that." well here I am, not having offers higher than that
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Feb 11, 2022 19:47
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Leon Sumbitches posted:I want it medium badly. Ultimately I'm trying for a career change and this ain't it. It's a tough call between stay where I am (and am comfortably miserable, but able to work on the career pivot) or change to this other org which would have some immediate benefits but delay the career pivot by X months. Why would you take a paycut to move further away from what you want to do?
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Feb 11, 2022 19:48
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spatula posted:lol no she was internal for some startup. I was actually correcting my initial ask that she pulled from Hired.com where I am required to list salary expectations. Her exact words were "Yeah, $185k is a bit low. You'll get offers higher than that." well here I am, not having offers higher than that That is weird! I was figuring it was an external recruiter who gets a % of your first year salary or something and they know how hot it is now. I think staying at your current job if there is no immediate reason to jump is a good idea. Wait until you can secure an offer you're really happy with because there are a lot of unknowns in going to a new job and the comp increase is what will make it worthwhile. Don't necessarily compare directly with other people you know there could have been any combination of timing, luck and different skills they were hiring for..
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Feb 11, 2022 19:51
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priznat posted:That is weird! I was figuring it was an external recruiter who gets a % of your first year salary or something and they know how hot it is now. thanks for the feedback. you’re probably right, I just hate interviewing and I want it to be over 🥲 my current company is awful but it’s not urgent that I leave, just weighing on me heavily. My friend who accepted the $220k offer agrees that there was a good deal of luck involved, but I still can’t help but compare myself to him, he started his career shortly after mine and we do the same kind of work.
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Feb 11, 2022 20:25
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spatula: you have really hosed yourself over turning all of your cards faceup in these negotiations and I'm not sure you appreciate this fact. Definitely tell a company you're entertaining other offers; definitely don't tell them the details of those offers. Just tell them what you want. "I would love to sign on with you but I can't at these numbers, I've received better offers. If you can meet me at $220K plus $25K signing then we can move forward today." Obligatory reminder that stock options from startups are worth $0.
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Feb 11, 2022 20:39
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Arquinsiel posted:I'd say work out how many days you actually take off, add one or two for feelsies, and ask if they can come up to that. I did that last time, got told no, but was then informed that the company's working practices are extremely flexible and I can pretty much set my own schedule and don't need to use PTO for doctor's appointments or cert exams etc. To echo what everyone has said here already, just asking gets you information about the company. This is basically what I was told when I asked for more PTO days, sounds like more of just to have an official policy, but not give everyone unlimited. So no adjustment on PTO but I was able to get a decent stipend for home office equipment I can expense. It's outside the scope of this thread but is there anything I could write off on taxes too for being permanent wfh?
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Feb 11, 2022 20:52
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no
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Feb 11, 2022 20:58
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The only time to turn everything face up is when a job you want for other reasons (career change, etc) is pretty far out of band with your batna. It's not the best strategy, but laying out that your alternatives are much stronger can get numbers to move and isn't complicated to do. Only give information if it will advantage your position. That doesn't mean never give information. E: the whole never say a number thing is because you don't want to accidentally anchor yourself _low_. After they give a number, you need to be able to throw some number around. Though it's usually best to not provide any substantial justification. leper khan fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 21:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:spatula: you have really hosed yourself over turning all of your cards faceup in these negotiations and I'm not sure you appreciate this fact. Definitely tell a company you're entertaining other offers; definitely don't tell them the details of those offers. Just tell them what you want. "I would love to sign on with you but I can't at these numbers, I've received better offers. If you can meet me at $220K plus $25K signing then we can move forward today." I already know that I broke the “rules” but I don’t know how to lie well I’ll just gently caress it up and look even more uncomfortable. I don’t really see how it fucks me though. Now they know what my expectations are based on and that i’m not just lying by saying an extra high number and expecting them to negotiate downward. I’m just making it clear that these are the expectations I have based on what I think the market will pay right now, and here is why. And I also think that telling them my current salary helps because like, it’s already high enough that their offer really isn’t that good to me. If my salary was low, it would be different. I also made it pretty clear that i’m willing to walk away. I just don’t think i’d be any better off if I just kept saying I want $220k because they can assume i’m full of poo poo and would probably guess my current salary is lower. I know stock options are worth basically zero and I told them that lol. Then I agreed to meet with the CTO again about it because I am easily manipulated I guess I don’t know. Sure whatever I suck at this lol. Being honest might not help me but I’m not capable of much else.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:01
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spatula posted:I already know that I broke the “rules” but I don’t know how to lie well I’ll just gently caress it up and look even more uncomfortable. I don’t really see how it fucks me though. Now they know what my expectations are based on and that i’m not just lying by saying an extra high number and expecting them to negotiate downward. I’m just making it clear that these are the expectations I have based on what I think the market will pay right now, and here is why. As soon as they know what you're currently at, you're capped at roughly that +15% Stock options in public companies are definitely not worth 0.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:03
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leper khan posted:As soon as they know what you're currently at, you're capped at roughly that +15% why is this bad? I would accept this offer edit: yeah I’m only talking about options in startups being worth 0 spatula fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 21:04
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It's bad compared to the +20% you could conceivably get if you play your cards closer to your chest
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Feb 11, 2022 21:11
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Happiness Commando posted:It's bad compared to the +20% you could conceivably get if you play your cards closer to your chest I mean, I don’t know what I’m expected to do when I’m already well paid. They’ll assume I make less money if I don’t tell them which puts me in an even worse position. Anyway it doesn’t matter because I told them already. I wanted to establish a baseline for an offer that would be appealing to me, and for them to know their offer actually wasn’t that good. Sorry I am not brave enough to deal with negotiations in an ideal way, this entire thing is a horrifying experience and I would be happy to get even 5% more than my current salary at this point
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Feb 11, 2022 21:20
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spatula posted:I mean, I don’t know what I’m expected to do when I’m already well paid. They’ll assume I make less money if I don’t tell them which puts me in an even worse position. Anyway it doesn’t matter because I told them already. I wanted to establish a baseline for an offer that would be appealing to me, and for them to know their offer actually wasn’t that good. You had a recruiter tell you that you are underpaid. If you don't want to see that, whatever. Money isn't the be all and end all of life, particularly when you're talking the marginal value of 5-15% of your already high salary... but it's certainly what this thread is about.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:22
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Or like 100%. There's some stories from this very thread of people making crazy jumps by playing it smart.spatula posted:I already know that I broke the “rules” but I don’t know how to lie well I’ll just gently caress it up and look even more uncomfortable. You don't have to lie and should not. Edit: I'm a pretty conflict avoidant person too but drat if there are not times to assert yourself and it reallyhelps if you've had some practice at it. Such as negotiating for a job you aren't dying to take. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 21:25
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Jordan7hm posted:You had a recruiter tell you that you are underpaid. If you don't want to see that, whatever. Underpaid compared to the current market rate though. The companies I’m speaking with know how long I’ve been at my current role. I wasn’t underpaid 1.5 years ago. And yeah money isn’t everything but Im about to walk away from the best job offers I’ve ever gotten over the money. So here I am in this thread, just looking for validation that I should be doing that, because I hate it and Im scared
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Feb 11, 2022 21:26
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Xguard86 posted:You don't have to lie and should not. To expand on this, selectively revealing true information to move a negotiation along is not the same as lying. Emphasis on selective.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:27
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Quebec Bagnet posted:To expand on this, selectively revealing true information to move a negotiation along is not the same as lying. Emphasis on selective. Thank you. Was trying to think how to phrase that.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:30
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spatula posted:Underpaid compared to the current market rate though. is there another market rate that matters?
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Feb 11, 2022 21:30
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Isn’t selectively revealing true information what I did? All of the information points to me being willing and able to walk away from the offers. Anyway I get it, I hosed this up by giving too much information but I can’t take back my actions so I am not sure it’s constructive feedback at this point. you don’t have to keep saying it. I don’t personally think it’s that bad since the info I revealed puts me in a decent position to negotiate an offer that is AT LEAST acceptable, but I understand your opinions. I would, seriously, be happy to get any offer that exceeds my current comp at this point. And I’d probably take it. If you have any advice as far as actionable things I can still do now, I am open to that. There’s one more offer I’m waiting on, they said they’d have an answer by Tuesday - it was the first place I spoke to and I was maximally undervaluing myself at that point so lol. I think the right choice is to keep interviewing which makes me want to die but, lol whatever. I guess if I got at least 3 job offers I can get more
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Feb 11, 2022 22:32
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It not only willingness to wake away that matters. Asking for a high base salary when you don't have any other offers that have a high base salary is not a convincing argument and you revealed that. It would have been stronger to just say you have multiple competitive offers and you'll sign if they increase the base to $X. I know this thread always states to value options and illiquid equity at zero, and I agree with that stance, but the startup is not going to do so. From their perspective they're probably giving you $250k+ TC and none of your offers are that competitive. For this reason if you aren't going to value a companies equity then you probably shouldn't waste your time interviewing there and focus instead of companies where you do value the equity or have competitive TC without equity. If you aren't already doing so, you should be using levels.fyi and similar sites to target companies that have TC at or above your target. asur fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 22:44
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spatula posted:Isn’t selectively revealing true information what I did? Sure, but in a suboptimal way. You referred to negotiating basics as 'lying' at one point, m8
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Feb 11, 2022 23:14
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81sidewinder posted:Sure, but in a suboptimal way. You referred to negotiating basics as 'lying' at one point, m8 The post above suggests that I should have just said "I have multiple competitive offers" which is lying lol. I'm willing to lie, tbh. Totally willing, I just cannot come up with lies on the spot about all the competitive offers I have. Even if I had the line prepared, I'm like a deer in headlights when they start asking details.
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Feb 11, 2022 23:18
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What's done is done and an offer > than what you make now is a win, regardless. All good. I think the general thread message is tips to take with you on the next negotiation + maybe a tweak in outlook on negotiating as a whole.
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Feb 11, 2022 23:19
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A really important key piece of information is there is no 1 secret way to negotiate and people who don't know your or the job circumstance (like us) can give helpful advice but can't give you an absolute most optimal path. If you are walking away with a good offer that's a win, think in bigger terms not just maximizing a number.
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Feb 11, 2022 23:27
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Lockback posted:Why would you take a paycut to move further away from what you want to do? I wouldn't take a cut, no, but reasons the job is appealing: -Much better commute than my current role -Great name recognition, I think it would look good on my resume (but I'd have to be there a year or something) -Remote work, vs my current job that is fully in office 5-days a week -My current office is miserable, I've never seen morale so low anywhere, and I've literally worked back-breaking manual labor before. Ultimately I'm more trying to get away from my current job than go towards this opportunity, so I think I have my answer. Is it a dick move to keep interviewing for the practice of naming a big number?
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Feb 12, 2022 00:12
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Leon Sumbitches posted:Is it a dick move to keep interviewing for the practice of naming a big number? Even if practicing interviewing were a dick move -- and if it is, it's a microscopic one -- it pales in comparison to the dick moves that happen on the other side of the table at many companies all the time. And you've got to practice somehow.
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Feb 12, 2022 00:18
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I have always taken interviews (unless it's blatantly gonna be a waste of time) cuz I figure staying sharp on interviews can't hurt!
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Feb 12, 2022 00:20
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Admiralty Flag posted:Is it a dick move for HR to post JDs and interview people only to go with the internal hire that they were instructed to laterally/vertically promote all along, just add a few external people so it seemed like a competitive environment? Even better is the "We have to interview everyone that applied even though we've already selected our candidate." Take the interview and get practice, us HR people will live just fine.
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Feb 12, 2022 00:23
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spatula posted:The post above suggests that I should have just said "I have multiple competitive offers" which is lying lol. I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't think "I have multiple competitive offers" is a lie in the slightest. All those offers are competing for you. Ergo, they are competitive. With each other. The fact that they suck and you're gonna dumpster them is irrelevant  Edit: Hell, technically your current job is a "competitive offer". They keep offering you money, and you keep showing up. You're looking for someone to beat them, but until they do, they're the best offer in town~
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Feb 12, 2022 12:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you should figure out what market is for the job, that is an important skill and thing to do and you have not yet done it speaking of which, how reliable are the various websites that report average/median salaries? E: is it just Glassdoor and levels.FYI, and everything else is bullshit? kalel fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 13:16
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kalel posted:speaking of which, how reliable are the various websites that report average/median salaries? Glassdoor is bullshit, at least for programmers. Afaik it's only levels
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Feb 12, 2022 15:33
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I got a weird one so am giving lots of context. My partner is in R&D for an old established tech company that is based in the EU, but his office is in the bay area. His boss just announced to his group that this next week they could schedule a meeting to negotiate salary. Despite already being hired. He claimed this is an EU practice that generally isn't done in the US but he's doing it. My take is boss knows how competitive the job market is, knows his group is underpaid compared to the bay area market and was given the go ahead by his vp to try and retain people by upping salaries, and is using the 'its an EU practice I'm bringing over' as a cover to mask his actual worry / intention and not lose bargening power. My partner is Very conflict averse, but willing to listen to my advice and deal with feeling like poo poo for a week if he 'has' to. He was an intern for a year for his boss, and hired to full time last June at 160k. He's got a science BS, but humanities PhD so feels like his Banta sucks, plus really likes his job. And he 'doesn't want his boss to think he's going to leave'. On the other hand he was given the highest rating in his yearly eval which is very difficult, is doing the job of one or one and a half promotions up, and his boss has said he's aiming to get him a promotion this next cycle, which we think is June. He doesn't know what his market rate is because he thinks with his humanities PhD he wouldn't be able to junp somewhere easily, which I disagree with but here we are. I told him to ask for 180k and be happy with 175k, in the hope that his promotion this year would be another 10 or 15k increase. He was originally going to ask for 165k. Anyone have a better read on the situation? I've negotiated before when hiring, once for a bit more money when I got promoted, but not just un expectedly and randomly as announced to a whole group.
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Feb 12, 2022 16:27
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Hot job market aside, when inflation is 7% he should not be asking for only a 3% raise.
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Feb 12, 2022 16:40
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Spikes32 posted:I got a weird one so am giving lots of context. My partner is in R&D for an old established tech company that is based in the EU, but his office is in the bay area. His boss just announced to his group that this next week they could schedule a meeting to negotiate salary. Despite already being hired. He claimed this is an EU practice that generally isn't done in the US but he's doing it. Are you talking base or total? The number that matters, especially for public companies, is total comp. Without knowing role/level and whether that's base or total it's hard for me to tell if those numbers are good. A humanities PhD won't ever be a negative. At worst it will be completely ignored.
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Feb 12, 2022 16:41
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160k base with 10k bonus this year, and good bennies. His title is experienced researcher but that's an internal title and doesn't match industry terminology. He doesn't know what he would be outside the company so he's asking an old coworker about that.
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Feb 12, 2022 17:15
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