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Barry Foster posted:There's what??? Bagsy, gently caress off, mine Wait till you find out about this lovely shiny cloth they've got over there. Don't ask where it comes from though. I mean literally don't ask, the Emperor will have you tortured to death if you try and find out how they make it.
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Feb 12, 2022 19:37
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Wait till you find out about this lovely shiny cloth they've got over there. Don't ask where it comes from though. I mean literally don't ask, the Emperor will have you tortured to death if you try and find out how they make it. I already know that's worm turds, I have no interest in wearing literal poo poo, ugh
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Feb 12, 2022 19:39
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Dabir posted:It's not western propaganda to say that Russia is not under military threat from NATO, a military alliance. NATO probably does outmatch Russia militarily, but that's kind of irrelevant when any shooting war between the two would result in the planet being turned into a hot, glowing marble. The individuals involved do not need to be physically quaking in their boots, nor machiavellian manipulators of the highest order. They are both smart, and human like you and I. Structurally at this scale in both time and geography, it makes no difference, they are part of a very long game. See for example the mutual misunderstanding of intentions in the Cold War (seriously look at how wrong and panicked the finest minds of both sides were about the others plans, let alone goals), or more recently the United States wild lashing out after 9/11 immediately undermining itself with the last two decades of back to back defeats in the middle east or... basically all international politics since the beginning of recorded history. Russia as a country knows who NATO are designed to defend against (hint, it is them), and have seen the last hundred years of politics in continental europe play out. They would be dumb and bad at the game if they were not afraid of Nato, if not what they do today then what nato or its decedents may do in the future. In the exact same way the USA is very obviously scared of rising China, or here Russia unfucking itself and regaining status etc. That understanding helps you understand their actions at scale, even if you personally see them as your enemy, you should understand them right? All the better to defeat them. Rather than telling yourself they can only be responding rationally within timelines and data clipped to only to whenever our media noticed the issue, because hell knows we don't act rationally on the international stage either. The best way to lie is to not tell an untruth, but to choose where the story starts and ends, then omit major details, and more importantly perspectives. That way you can make anyone a hero or a villain, and feel morally justified in whatever action you want. But that won't let you necessarily understand something, or why something happened, or what people wanted, or what to do in the future.
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Feb 12, 2022 19:47
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endlessmonotony posted:Take the L this phrase along with the cry-laughing emoji make me inexplicably angry. maybe I have terminal twitter poisoning
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Feb 12, 2022 19:52
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Take the p instead
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Feb 12, 2022 19:54
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https://twitter.com/Agitate4Change/status/1492567967288205317
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Feb 12, 2022 19:58
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Not So Fast posted:My point is that NATO is just the latest expression for driving up arms sales and causing intra-imperialist conflicts. Unless European states all became socialist they would still have to find some way to create and exploit capital for that sector. So you're saying that if we lived in a utopia then some things might be better? Now there's a thought.
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Feb 12, 2022 19:59
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lol
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Feb 12, 2022 20:00
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Desiderata posted:The individuals involved do not need to be physically quaking in their boots, nor machiavellian manipulators of the highest order. They are both smart, and human like you and I. Structurally at this scale in both time and geography, it makes no difference, they are part of a very long game. What are they afraid of NATO doing?
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Feb 12, 2022 20:06
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https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1492570162696007683 Now then now then guys and gals
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Feb 12, 2022 20:14
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kecske posted:this phrase along with the cry-laughing emoji make me inexplicably angry. 
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Feb 12, 2022 20:15
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kecske posted:this phrase along with the cry-laughing emoji make me inexplicably angry. maybe I have terminal twitter poisoning Same. Where does "take the L" come from anyway, please tell me so I can hate it at the source
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Feb 12, 2022 20:42
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Dabir posted:What are they afraid of NATO doing? Uniting the entire productive capacity of Eastern Europe against them under the EU within a military umbrella, rolling up their sphere of influence till they are isolated and have NATO up against their border, limiting their access to international trade and maritime influence (both the port in this instance and more), ensuring that their status and thus say in the world order continues to decline, ending them as a global power till they cannot even resist anymore and collapse (again), nuclear weapons or no. You know, basically the same with the USAs worries about Chinas influence in Asia/Africa. But that's what dying empires look like, right? I mean on these timescales, today yes totally it may seem hilariously impossible to imagine a nato invasion: but the neurosis brought on by having twice now had to fight European invasions to a standstill at and through your capital's gates is something that sticks in the cultural mythos, also that other time being involved in a war on their western border partially precipitated a civil war in which western Europeans marched armies inside their borders yet again, all probably left a bit of a long term cultural impact ya know. This is the kind of stuff still motivates at these timescales. All declines and rises, are step by step. Hell look at British dead empire cultural neurosis still play out badly on the international stage (it is funnier, but only because we are truly much less powerful).
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Feb 12, 2022 21:01
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Same. Where does "take the L" come from anyway, please tell me so I can hate it at the source Sports, innit. L for a loss, W for a win
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Feb 12, 2022 21:01
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It's a sports thing. NFL maybe?
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Feb 12, 2022 21:03
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What about a draw? I'm assuming that people don't say "take the D" (in that sense  )
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Feb 12, 2022 21:05
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Desiderata posted:Uniting the entire productive capacity of Eastern Europe against them under the EU within a military umbrella, rolling up their sphere of influence till they are isolated and have NATO up against their border, limiting their access to international trade and maritime influence (both the port in this instance and more), ensuring that their status and thus say in the world order continues to decline, ending them as a global power till they cannot even resist anymore and collapse (again), nuclear weapons or no. Sounds like they're afraid of the consequences of their own actions, then. The military actions. The ones they're doing to their neighbours. The neighbours who are suddenly very keen to join a military defense pact.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:08
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https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1492590302540058627?t=V_u2bNoxxM5FmvEXvvWQPA&s=19
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Feb 12, 2022 21:11
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sebzilla posted:https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1492590302540058627?t=V_u2bNoxxM5FmvEXvvWQPA&s=19 lol i do not believe it
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Feb 12, 2022 21:12
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If that 3 was a 5, they'd be over 20 points ahead.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:13
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https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1492551340660248579 I'd be interested to know what exactly they're paying attention to.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:17
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Russia are the badies. They cheat at everything.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:19
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Guavanaut posted:What about a draw? I'm assuming that people don't say "take the D" (in that sense lol if you think Americans can accept the idea of sports ending in a draw
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Feb 12, 2022 21:20
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Guavanaut posted:https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1492551340660248579 plenty of twitter types who profess to be hardcore labourites and love keith and poo poo, i'm sure
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Feb 12, 2022 21:24
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Dabir posted:Sounds like they're afraid of the consequences of their own actions, then. The military actions. The ones they're doing to their neighbours. The neighbours who are suddenly very keen to join a military defense pact. Like I said, you can decide when a story starts and ends and use that to tell any story you want in terms of heroes villains and moral consequence. You can feel righteous about it if that comforts you. It's not going to help you understand what is happening and why, other than how those stories can be used to move people. That is why history is terrible consequence after terrible consequence. But it is why you should take their fear seriously, it is as real a motivator as you can have.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:30
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Wonder how much Starmer's Labour TM will spaff up the wall investigating who leaked the report into the leaked report?
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Feb 12, 2022 21:41
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The biggest driver of states joining NATO are Russia’s actions that make said states afraid that they will get invaded unless said invasion would result in the US and most of Europe coming to their defence because of a treaty obligation. Like you can make all these arguments about US imperialism and hegemony, but the US does all that without NATO involvement, the most prominent recent example being France and Germany refusing to back the Iraq invasion, so it’s a bit of a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of NATO to make all these arguments about where the escalation is coming from. Russia is threatened by NATO because it means that any aggressive military action against smaller countries might cause massive retaliation to Russia, which is the entire point of a defensive alliance. If Russia doesn’t want countries to join NATO, then maybe they should stop invading multiple neighbours. This is like saying that burglars are threatened by the expansion of the neighbourhood watch. And before you go onto some “well NATO could attack first” - one, that’s not how the treaty works, two, most of the newer members of NATO would be against it since it would mean they would be the first to get flattened, and three, if you think the US would do it anyway, then at least realise that they would do it without NATO anyway.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:48
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Julio Cruz posted:lol if you think Americans can accept the idea of sports ending in a draw I went to an NFL game (pre-season game, not one of the modern NFL London things) at Wembley in the 90s that ended in a draw, and I always wondered if they had caught something from the venue.
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Feb 12, 2022 22:04
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Desiderata posted:Like I said, you can decide when a story starts and ends and use that to tell any story you want in terms of heroes villains and moral consequence. You can feel righteous about it if that comforts you. It's not going to help you understand what is happening and why, other than how those stories can be used to move people. That is why history is terrible consequence after terrible consequence. I think I compared this to Iran else where. You can condemn Iran for trying to develop Nuclear weapons, but from their perspective it's 100% a rational action. Iraq gave up WMDs- they get invaded. Libya gives up it's WMD programme and gets invaded. Syria- kept it's chemical weapons and survived. Iran does a deal with US, and the US immediately tears it up and starts assassinating top generals and scientists. North Korea gets nukes, they get a face to face negotiations with the US President. In Russia's case no nation has ever willingly allowed itself to be surrounded by a economic or military pact expressly targeting itself or sat by and allowed it's own sphere to be shrunk. (See the US in central or South America for example) The US/Nato expressly agreed they wouldn't expand into former Warsaw/Soviet bloc countries. They did. In this context Russia's actions make sense, it doesn't make those actions good, right or just. But their not completely insane or stupid from a self preservation point of view. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 22:07
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One might suggest that a more effective way to avoid that outcome would be something like the belt and road initiative rather than annexing bits of your neighbours.
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Feb 12, 2022 22:19
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I thought the purpose of Brexit was that Eastern Europe discussions wouldn't enter the UK thread 
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Feb 12, 2022 22:23
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Nenonen posted:I thought the purpose of Brexit was that Eastern Europe discussions wouldn't enter the UK thread The UK currently has troops helping Poland commit crimes against refugees trying to enter the EU. So I'm just as confused as you.
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Feb 12, 2022 22:29
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Prole posted:Whatever your opinions on Russia and it's government - and I have absolutely no love for Putin - you can't help but see their point when you look into the history of this whole mess. Why *wouldn't* they mobilise troops on their own border given the circumstances? That's surely a totally legitimate thing for a nation to do? Oh goddamnit. And you were doing so well too And here's another: Failed Imagineer posted:On the one hand, someone made the point that the continuous state of civil war in Ukraine totally justifies Russian border militarisation Russia fighting a "civil" war inside Ukraine, for years, totally justifies Russia further militarising the border? Yeah, good logic there  Why do people have such idiotic opinions on Russia? How does Putin get to you all? Seriously, how the gently caress are people always defending and "understanding" that fascist oval office? Both Trump etc AND Putin are poo poo and bad and gently caress them. How is any of this hard?
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Feb 12, 2022 22:30
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imo we need to do a pre-emptive humanitarian nuclear strike on Moscow. If you disagree with me on this then you're a Putin apologist and want to hold him tightly and whisper sweet nothings in his ear.
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Feb 12, 2022 22:43
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JoylessJester posted:I think I compared this to Iran else where. You can condemn Iran for trying to develop Nuclear weapons, but from their perspective it's 100% a rational action. Iraq gave up WMDs- they get invaded. Libya gives up it's WMD programme and gets invaded. Syria- kept it's chemical weapons and survived. Iran does a deal with US, and the US immediately tears it up and starts assassinating top generals and scientists. North Korea gets nukes, they get a face to face negotiations with the US President. I'll condemn them when they start using the implied threat of nuclear armageddon to keep the rest of the world at arm's length while they invade and conquer their neighbours. Like Russia is doing, right now.
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Feb 12, 2022 22:53
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OwlFancier posted:One might suggest that a more effective way to avoid that outcome would be something like the belt and road initiative rather than annexing bits of your neighbours. Yeah, if they could afford to, again woes of a waning empire. This is where the softpower stuff is always at work though, being civil and "normal" atleast is various western NGOs wandering in telling you what is or isn't a "good election", western money creeping into your politics covertly/intentionally or not (it hardly matters) and with it influence and power, and accidental or intentional cultural and economic ploys to bend your neighbors out of your orbit. NED gonna NED. You can definitely make the argument there: that Russia has utterly failed to play that game well, and has lost that part of its grip because of being financially crippled and unable to make the same soft power offers the west has (strangely in part because of the damage caused by that very same shock market liberalism). But that is what has happened, what they see as their border buffer has been slowly eaten away. The neighborhood is being turned against you anyway in Hobos analogy. This falling back to the sword is just the last step in a long creeping economic advance towards them, one they have been unable to stem (and we would have equally called unjust if they did). Nato membership is more a signifier of the final step of the contagion (from their pov here), than the sole force itself pushing inwards, chewing away at their influence. The force is as much the EU, US, a million NGOs or being plugged into European manufacturing and supply lines and vague western neoliberalism etc. The west is very good at economic infiltration and can fully turn to the sword just as quickly if we think it will get the job done. From that point of view, they must feel like we just bribe everyone around them... and we kinda do, successfully. We equally feel nervous about China putting their economic excess to use like you say. We offer a good package, but if you want the full benefits, you gotta be in the club, and yeah any country caught between these two opposing forces is having choose. But we the west have been at work here, it is not something that just happened, and Russia notice that because they are not fools. Playing around the edge of the old ruined empire is dangerous, you never know what you may trigger, hence this.
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Feb 12, 2022 23:07
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jaete posted:Oh goddamnit. And you were doing so well too People can understand why Russia are deeply distrustful of NATO expansion without it actually being a defence of Putin the human being or an endorsement of his policies, domestic or international. Hope that helps.
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Feb 12, 2022 23:48
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forkboy84 posted:People can understand why Russia are deeply distrustful of NATO expansion without it actually being a defence of Putin the human being or an endorsement of his policies, domestic or international. Hope that helps. Likewise people can understand why the neighbours of Russia are deeply distrustful of Russia's expansionism without it actually being a defence of western imperialism. So I guess there is zero difference between NATO expansion and Russian invasion.
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Feb 12, 2022 23:53
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it’s a shame that corbyn didn’t win because i am curious which colour they would have used for our own little colour revolution (probably blue lol)
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Feb 13, 2022 00:01
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poo-tin
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