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I can't see any flaw in that logic.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:19
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ImpAtom posted:I can't see any flaw in that logic. I am curious if the Japanese fanbase gets this kind of line of reasoning going on. Like they have a different internet arguing culture, but my very vague and loose impression entirely derived from observing secondary media is that there is more separation, so to speak, with the "Bad Guy did nothing wrong" takes, rather than a thousand little Red Letters Media trying to shout everyone down about how actually Venat is the preincarnation of Adolf Hitler (optional addendum: 'and Adolf was able to overcome it with his moral courage'). But it could just be that those guys are deep in the bowels of 2ch and inaccessible to my sight.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:Technically I think he's a politician/police chief not a cop. Not that it matters much in this context. I do think that prior to learning about the future, Emet Selch was legitimately trying to help Hermes. EDIT: Ah, I did basically post this thing before: Unlucky7 posted:I think Emet Selch saw this and legitimately wanted to help him: joining the convocation would have allowed him a set of equals to talk to about his hang ups, and possibly put him into a position to actually things. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 22:21
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Risking spoiling myself just I can post this somewhere that isn't the newbie thread Tsukuyomi is a badass fight
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Feb 12, 2022 22:51
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Electric Phantasm posted:Risking spoiling myself just I can post this somewhere that isn't the newbie thread Friend there is a main thread you can graduate to that is much safer than this one if you wanna post about plot as you go!
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Feb 12, 2022 22:53
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Regy Rusty posted:Friend there is a main thread you can graduate to that is much safer than this one if you wanna post about plot as you go! Is it the sticky thread?
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Feb 12, 2022 22:55
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Electric Phantasm posted:Is it the sticky thread? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3987398
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Feb 12, 2022 22:55
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Thanks!
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Feb 12, 2022 22:56
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Azem having any sort of foresight would be new, but there could be other time loop shenanigans or something.  It is, apparently, a habit of Azem's to be a cryptic jerk whose prophecies are nonetheless accurate, if only in retrospect. I couldn't say time travel has no bearing whatsoever, but the way it's talked about makes it clear it's not the first "hint" Azem's ever given Themis, and Elpis isn't their usual haunt in any case, which somewhat limits our present chances of being responsible for the earlier ones. I'd say it's easier to just accept it as part of Azem's character for now and account for that in speculation. Like, if Azem had an idea about the future (if not even the whole picture), they might have been absent around the time Venat was trying to gain their support because they had their own things to prepare.
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Feb 13, 2022 01:50
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EDIT: Snip, it was a nonsequitier on retrospect Anyway https://twitter.com/sasscian/status/1492633707836063755?s=20&t=7pg604s4z999225uPewp9g Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 13, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 02:24
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Azem is associated with the Sun, and if we follow Emet-Selch's true name being Hades, Gaia being one of the Convocation members, Fandaniel being Hermes. It is entirely possible Azem is Apollo, the Sun God and source of prophecy for the Oracle of Delphi.
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Feb 13, 2022 02:49
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Unlucky7 posted:EDIT: Snip, it was a nonsequitier on retrospect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUWBoYwAgaE Reminds me of this
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Feb 13, 2022 03:05
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Lord_Magmar posted:Azem is associated with the Sun, and if we follow Emet-Selch's true name being Hades, Gaia being one of the Convocation members, Fandaniel being Hermes. It is entirely possible Azem is Apollo, the Sun God and source of prophecy for the Oracle of Delphi. Azem was actually just getting high off of strange fumes all the time and everyone was too nice to mention it to their obviously malformed familiar.
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Feb 13, 2022 05:58
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Algid posted:Azem was actually just getting high off of strange fumes all the time and everyone was too nice to mention it to their obviously malformed familiar. drat imagine inhaling so much helium your voice bends time and you can see the future
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Feb 13, 2022 09:27
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I still love that Azem is spoken of as some kind of natural disaster that sweeps everyone along with them.
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Feb 13, 2022 17:51
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PlasticAutomaton posted:I still love that Azem is spoken of as some kind of natural disaster that sweeps everyone along with them. It's extremely anime and I appreciate it
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Feb 13, 2022 17:53
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If you've got futuresight you already know who's going to go along with your plans and can act accordingly
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Feb 13, 2022 18:19
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PlasticAutomaton posted:I still love that Azem is spoken of as some kind of natural disaster that sweeps everyone along with them. Vash the Stampede of the Unsundered World.
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Feb 13, 2022 22:11
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Honestly it's really frustrating to me that people feel the need to "side" with either Hades or Venat when it feels crystal clear that the tone of the entire game is that they (and Ancient society at large) were all ultimately good people who didn't deserve what happened to them and deserved better, and for whom the best way to honor them would be to bring the best of their lessons into the future. I really can't think of a more hopeful version of EW's finale with its outright stating that everyone will get another chance one day. It's weird people need to turn one of them into History's Greatest Monster.
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Feb 13, 2022 22:41
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what's hades' lesson?
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Feb 13, 2022 22:49
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Zeruel posted:what's hades' lesson? "Hold tight to the things you love." Dude's literally a dark knight. That's their whole thing. You don't have to take it to genocidal extremes to acknowledge the dude's dedication.
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Feb 13, 2022 22:51
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Jetrauben posted:It's weird people need to turn one of them into History's Greatest Monster. One of them started two different totalitarian empires, am I still allowed to consider him History's Greatest Monster for that one? EDIT: And actually, I realized over the weekend that he isn't a Dark Knight, he's just an edgelord. The core of Dark Knight messaging is to hold to principle and do what's right no matter how much of the world stands against you, and... uhh, that's not Hades, who upheld and enforced structures to the end. That's Venat. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Feb 13, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 22:52
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Only starting two totalitarian empires in twelve thousand years is impressive self restraint for a wizard
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Feb 13, 2022 22:55
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Cleretic posted:One of them started two different totalitarian empires, am I still allowed to consider him History's Greatest Monster for that one? I mean, you can, but I'm not sure it's useful, especially seeing as the narrative has also emphasized the benefits both empires brought to their homelands and his often indirect role on their most extreme atrocities. Allag at its nadir was awful, but its technology is also responsible for a lot of good in its golden age. Cleretic posted:
He is literally, mechanically, a Dark Knight. Again, we don't need to take some sort of massive karmic reckoning here, because by strictly utilitarian numbers all of them have a lot of blood on their hands. Hell, Zenos ends up in the karmic black rather than red since he, you know, helps save all of existence including not merely the living but those prevented from being born again. 14 is not a judgmental game. Endwalker basically ends up as close as possible to "you can love all your faves," by ultimately placing the blame on plot devices (the dead civilizations outside in the cosmos poisoning Meteion's mind) and even THEY are ultimately approached with pity, not "die and be damned." Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Feb 13, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 22:56
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I like both characters too but I'm never going to call him Hades, that's just weird
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Feb 13, 2022 23:38
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Cleretic posted:EDIT: And actually, I realized over the weekend that he isn't a Dark Knight, he's just an edgelord. The core of Dark Knight messaging is to hold to principle and do what's right no matter how much of the world stands against you, and... uhh, that's not Hades, who upheld and enforced structures to the end. That's Venat. Yeah, that's still exactly Hades.
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Feb 13, 2022 23:41
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Cleretic posted:EDIT: And actually, I realized over the weekend that he isn't a Dark Knight, he's just an edgelord. The core of Dark Knight messaging is to hold to principle and do what's right no matter how much of the world stands against you, and... uhh, that's not Hades, who upheld and enforced structures to the end. That's Venat. No, Hades in his own twisted way was doing exactly that. That's the entire point. His viewpoint was that he was doing the exact same things they were doing in Elpis, destorying the malformed so they could be created in a better way. He genuinely believed it was the only path available to rescuing his people and was willing to do anything and stand against anyone to do it. The fact that you eventually broke his resolve and proved him wrong didn't change that was who he was. Someone willing to do anything and everything from what they thought was right, even if other people (correctly) considered them a monster for it. Gaius is a similar example. He is a horrible monster who thought he was acting in the genuine right path that was the only real way to bring about peace for everyone until he was forced to confront front-and-center the flaws of his ideals and beliefs. Being wrong doesn't mean you don't believe in what you believe in. That is in fact what can make it scary and what is a centerpiece of Shadowbringer's thematic conflict. Both sides think they are right. Hades had doubts near the end but even then he can and would have willingly murdered you and continued on his path if you didn't prove you could overcome him. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 13, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 23:45
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Jetrauben posted:Especially seeing as the narrative has also emphasized the benefits both empires brought to their homelands and his often indirect role on their most extreme atrocities. Garlemald's core promise (devote your body to the war effort to defend the homeland) ended with the citizenry annihilating itself and all its advanced wonders in a paroxysm of nationalism while the helpless farflung soldiers could do nothing. The Allagan empire left behind a legacy of slavery and human experimentation, its own citizens having been devoured by Valentin fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 13, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 23:47
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Valentin posted:Garlemald's core promise (devote your body to the war effort to defend the homeland) ended with the citizenry annihilating itself and all its advanced wonders in a paroxysm of nationalism while the helpless farflung soldiers could do nothing. The Allagan empire left behind a legacy of slavery and human experimentation, its own citizens having been devoured by Agreed! On the other hand Allag's technology is pretty much a consistent lifesaver for our protagonists and the Crystal Tower was supposed to become (and indeed became) a symbol of hope for the future. In the long term, legacies are complex. (The picture we see of Allag is it at the very nadir of its moral and social decay, a decay ushered in not by malignant Ascian scheming but by social malaise and selfish inability to pursue the collective good. We have obvious real life analogies, many of whom both resulted in tremendous suffering and prosperity before eventually collapsing.) Empires can be awful in their expansion and also result in greater prosperity & improvements of living and positive intellectual and technological legacies and ALSO ultimately collapse due to their own corruption and malaise in ways that lead to even more collective suffering. Rome is the obvious example. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 13, 2022 23:53
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ImpAtom posted:No, Hades in his own twisted way was doing exactly that. That's the entire point. His viewpoint was that he was doing the exact same things they were doing in Elpis, destorying the malformed so they could be created in a better way. He genuinely believed it was the only path available to rescuing his people and was willing to do anything and stand against anyone to do it. The fact that you eventually broke his resolve and proved him wrong didn't change that was who he was. Someone willing to do anything and everything from what they thought was right, even if other people (correctly) considered them a monster for it. I suppose the thing that gets to me on this is that we need to remember that the Ancients' principles actually weren't self-preservation, it was to live for and help the planet. This is a principle that they went against when the End of Days hit and they went mad with grief and poor coping mechanisms, but Venat stood to those principles to the end, even when loathed for it. So I guess the distinction is that Hades is a Dark Knight by our society's definitions, but Venat is one by her own society's.
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Feb 13, 2022 23:59
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there were incidental upsides to the Allagan empire but they by no mean begin to ameliorate the rest. also if you have a hand in two empires specifically with the aim of disrupting global politics and causing worldwide cataclysms and disasters you don't like. Get points for not having signed off on the exact nature of the human/ox live experimentation. I think there's plenty to be said about emet-selch, a very interesting character with a lot going on, but I don't think "in the end, the Garlean and Allagan empires were lands of contrast" is really one all that supported by the text. the whole tragedy is that an ostensibly noble goal drove him to unfathomable crimes and sins. That those crimes are almost comically heinous is the key! He even intervenes in the Garlean empire mere moments before Shadowbringers to be like "hm. Sure would be cool if you did some more wars, maybe tried out some chemical weapons."
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Feb 14, 2022 00:02
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Cleretic posted:I suppose the thing that gets to me on this is that we need to remember that the Ancients' principles actually weren't self-preservation, it was to live for and help the planet. This is a principle that they went against when the End of Days hit and they went mad with grief and poor coping mechanisms, but Venat stood to those principles to the end, even when loathed for it. Quite possibly. I think part of the whole point of Elpis' indulgent fanfic segue is to reiterate that this is who these people are "supposed" to be, it's their natural character. Given how long view Endwalker takes things, where death is very explicitly not the end, it's what allows the game to take the non-judgmental perspective it does. Anyways, on other topics, somebody brought up Amon earlier and the clone in the tower. Very explicitly in the Alchemist questline dealing with it, Allagan clones do not have souls of their own by default. They don't really have wills, either, at least by all appearances without perhaps being trained. They're empty vessels, designed to have somebody else slip them on. Which might also make some of the Allagan moral decadence about biopunk make sense, if they were basically intended as extra lives/back up bodies. It's hard to say for sure because the only two characters we know are explicitly clones are Doga and Unei, who speak poetically about inheriting the will of their predecessors. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 00:03
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Jetrauben posted:
Somewhat like the Elpis test-creations, insofar as being artificial forms lacking souls.
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Feb 14, 2022 00:10
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Zomborgon posted:Somewhat like the Elpis test-creations, insofar as being artificial forms lacking souls. Yeah, which is further complicated by the fact that most of the creations we see in Elpis aren't sapient. The closest we get to a soul for them is the concept for them in the mind of their creator acting as a sort of qualia. The equivalent would be Liliy, for whom the soul equivalent is the scholar soul crystal that holds her and her memories. Notably, once somebody does have a soul, most Ancients treat them as something precious and irreplaceable, because they presumably are no longer "just" the life force and essence of the star imbued into a particular form. Hermes is the odd one out for being concerned about something being fundamentally "lost" when a soulless construct is put down. And I still think that's more a morbidly dysfunctional response to being forced to cause temporary pain. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 00:13
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I thought he was a Black Mage since I was the tank of that dungeon, and if the job of the Meteor Survivor/Finalfantasy XIV is anything to go by(paladin), so was he.
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Feb 14, 2022 00:16
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Zeruel posted:I thought he was a Black Mage since I was the tank of that dungeon, and if the job of the Meteor Survivor/Finalfantasy XIV is anything to go by(paladin), so was he. Venat could be all three roles (Dancer/White Mage/Paladin), Emet could be DPS or tank (Black Mage/Dark Knight), Hyth could only be DPS (Bard).
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Feb 14, 2022 00:20
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Actually, now that I think about it, logically familiars in "present day" Etheirys are generally extensions of their creators, right? They're Stands. They may sometimes have a degree of autonomy and independent awareness but their creators generally treat them like tools because they are just forks of their maker's will. Some fey even indicate they have a psychic link until it's severed. It makes me wonder if Meteion has a soul of her own or if she's just an extension of Hermes' imagination.
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Feb 14, 2022 00:24
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Man after doing the snoozefests that were Magic DPS and Tank, the Ranged DPS role quest is real fuckin' good.
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Feb 14, 2022 01:27
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pro: casters get a sick quest name chain con: so that's what we're gonna use "fafnir" on huh
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Feb 14, 2022 01:41
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Jetrauben posted:Actually, now that I think about it, logically familiars in "present day" Etheirys are generally extensions of their creators, right? They're Stands. They may sometimes have a degree of autonomy and independent awareness but their creators generally treat them like tools because they are just forks of their maker's will. Some fey even indicate they have a psychic link until it's severed.
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Feb 14, 2022 01:44
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