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BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

I MAY LOOK LIKE SHIT BUT IM ALSO DUMB AS FUCK



BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Looks more like a clitoral hood + clitoris to me, op.

same thing as a dick

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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

feedmegin posted:

I mean, a) that sort of mirrors the historical Arab societies before Mohammed comes along. Turns out when you conquer a bunch of people, slavery is a lot more On The Menu than it is when you're a bunch of nomads in the desert.

b) The wider society and universe they're in is at the very least deeply feudal, that's how the faufreluches thing works. It's not like the milieu they live in is modern democracy. Your average dude is a mediaeval serf.

c) Paul inherits Jamis's wife as a servant after defeating him in battle. That sounds preeetty slavery-like to me. Like https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Harah

'By law, Jamis' yali and all his possessions, excluding the funeral gifts but including his wife and sons, belonged to Paul Muad'Dib' think someone was gilding the lily a tad on the 'Fremens dont do slavery' bit in-universe, there.

I’m not reading between the lines. Early on in Messiah, Farok is talking to Scytale about how disenchanted he’s become about the Atreides. He mentions attending a feast hosted by Paul and how he was “disgusted” that “For entertainment, the troups had slave girls”. Later on he described how Paul “demeans” people by using them as distrans. However you describe the relationship between Paul and Harah, the basic fabric of Fremen culture has clearly degraded under Paul’s reign. That’s the whole point of that book.

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Jewmanji posted:

I’m not reading between the lines. Early on in Messiah, Farok is talking to Scytale about how disenchanted he’s become about the Atreides. He mentions attending a feast hosted by Paul and how he was “disgusted” that “For entertainment, the troups had slave girls”. Later on he described how Paul “demeans” people by using them as distrans. However you describe the relationship between Paul and Harah, the basic fabric of Fremen culture has clearly degraded under Paul’s reign. That’s the whole point of that book.

Sure. Just saying it's not as radical a change as youre making out. I don't think it needs any Special Paul Juice to happen once the jihad kicks off.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug


My boss told me to change my Slack profile picture to this because of my ability to rattle OSHA statute and interpretations off the dome.

I can’t tell if I should be annoyed, proud, or both.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

feedmegin posted:

Sure. Just saying it's not as radical a change as youre making out. I don't think it needs any Special Paul Juice to happen once the jihad kicks off.

Pretty much. As said above, much like how nomads don't really have any room to keep slaves, Fremen don't have any room for them in sietches, eking out an existence that's cut to the bone. But suddenly they rule the universe, have all the resources and room they could ever want, and no one can stop them. Meet the new boss.

Flakey
Apr 30, 2009

There's no need to speak. You must only concentrate and recall all your past life. When a man thinks of the past, he becomes kinder.
You don't think owning a woman as property is slavery?

Cosmik Slop
Oct 9, 2007

What's a hole doing in my TARDIS?


Flakey posted:

You don't think owning a woman as property is slavery?

I got the sense that it wasn't "owning" per se, more like "well, now that you've killed this dude, what are your intentions towards his wife?" and Paul (inadvertently) asks her to marry him

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Flakey posted:

You don't think owning a woman as property is slavery?

I mean I have bad news for you about gender relations in pre-modern societies. It's not implausible that that is basically the deal. Who else is going to take care of her otherwise?

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
have athread on marxism in d'e'collage... and then immediately delete it because they forgot to cite Doyle... it was funny

other than that i don't know... october probably

WithoutTheFezOn
Aug 28, 2005
Oh no

Cosmik Slop posted:

and Paul (inadvertently) asks her to marry him
You kill a guy, you’re responsible for his family.
You have to accept his wife as either your wife (I assume permanently) or as a servant for a year.
He very specifically did not choose the option of having Harah be his wife despite her protestations and claims of youth.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless

Cosmik Slop posted:

Paul (inadvertently) asks her to marry him

Wasn't that Chani when he asked her to carry his "water tokens"? :quagmire:

Riot Bimbo
Dec 28, 2006


something about carrying an axlotl tank from arakeen to seitch tabr

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

WithoutTheFezOn posted:

You kill a guy, you’re responsible for his family.
You have to accept his wife as either your wife (I assume permanently) or as a servant for a year.
He very specifically did not choose the option of having Harah be his wife despite her protestations and claims of youth.

Yeah, it's kind of a specific case given it's basically 'you killed this guy, now you need to take responsibility' and I think mainly a think because it was in a formally declared and witnessed duel to the death- Jamis knew what he was getting into. Especially given said wife does say that Jamis had killed her previous husband, iirc. It's supposed to be as alien and offputting as it sounds. (also, it's Paul's version of how the Prophet Muhammed married a widow to join a community and elevate his status)

The ending of the book does flat out have Paul marry Princess Irulan purely on paper and state he doesn't intend to so much as touch her, purely to solidify his claim as Emperor, and it's outright said to be not particularly fair to Irulan nor to Chani. It's a feudal system, noblewomen are explicitly resources. (and iirc, while she does join the conspiracy to try to kill/unseat Paul, Irulan does end up genuinely caring for the twins and raising them)

Soul Dentist
Mar 17, 2009

feedmegin posted:

I mean I have bad news for you about gender relations in pre-modern societies. It's not implausible that that is basically the deal. Who else is going to take care of her otherwise?

Depending on your view it is either a plus or a minus in this situation that Harah is actually shown to be completely capable of taking care of herself (and her children, the seitch, Jessica, etc.)

Feudal society or not a big deal is made about the capabilities of Fremen women.

Also a friendly reminder that Harah'a first husband was named Geoff

Parkingtigers
Feb 23, 2008
TARGET CONSUMER
LOVES EVERY FUCKING GAME EVER MADE. EVER.

WithoutTheFezOn posted:

You kill a guy, you’re responsible for his family.
You have to accept his wife as either your wife (I assume permanently) or as a servant for a year.
He very specifically did not choose the option of having Harah be his wife despite her protestations and claims of youth.

Conversely, you want a guy's wife, you kill him and she's yours. I know it's a product of its time, and mirrors a whole bunch of real world societal ideas about women, but there's a strong "women are property" vibe here.

(There was a strong implication in the book, I felt, that Jamis killed Harah's first husband to get Harah.)

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon
Fremen are a society of murderhobos though it's just a regular Wednesday for them when someone gets murdered and cannibalized for water

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

Riot Bimbo posted:

something about carrying an axlotl tank from arakeen to seitch tabr

genetic imprinter

busalover
Sep 12, 2020
Just finished Children of Dune. Why do people (maybe just this thread, dunno) don't think it's that good? I enjoyed it, but thought it was maybe a bit more campy and pulpy than the previous ones, but I still had fun. Laser tigers, wormsuits, oh my. The transition of Alia was well done? With every sequel I read, the more I think a simple stage adaption is the best way to dramatize Dune. Reduce it to politicking and psycho-drama, because that's what it's ultimately about.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

busalover posted:

Just finished Children of Dune. Why do people (maybe just this thread, dunno) don't think it's that good? I enjoyed it, but thought it was maybe a bit more campy and pulpy than the previous ones, but I still had fun. Laser tigers, wormsuits, oh my. The transition of Alia was well done? With every sequel I read, the more I think a simple stage adaption is the best way to dramatize Dune. Reduce it to politicking and psycho-drama, because that's what it's ultimately about.

I keep telling ya, Broadway musical.

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 26, 2007

Never Stop Posting
Dune is best suited to kabuki.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

Dune is best suited to kabuki.
Psch, clearly it belongs as a rakugo.

Mozi
Apr 4, 2004

Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die
Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I keep telling ya, Broadway musical.

dude if you had a giant worm setup like those animals in the lion king musical with a hundred people under it running around that would be awesome

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

busalover posted:

Just finished Children of Dune. Why do people (maybe just this thread, dunno) don't think it's that good? I enjoyed it, but thought it was maybe a bit more campy and pulpy than the previous ones, but I still had fun. Laser tigers, wormsuits, oh my. The transition of Alia was well done? With every sequel I read, the more I think a simple stage adaption is the best way to dramatize Dune. Reduce it to politicking and psycho-drama, because that's what it's ultimately about.

kiimo posted:

Disagree the end of Children is incredible. Imagine skipping out on Leto with superhuman skin jumping from dunetop to dunetop, horrifying Paul in the process.



kiimo posted:

I love the end of Children as I said a couple days ago. The Paul and Leto II meetup, the Alia finale that turns out to be surprisingly emotional as she jumps out the window, the sandtrout, etc. I reread the last few chapters way more than I ever pick up Messiah for any reason. That's just my personal preference

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon
I give children of dune two laser tigers out of two, it's largely better than God Emperor

pnumoman
Sep 26, 2008

I never get the last word, and it makes me very sad.

Colonel Cancer posted:

I give children of dune two laser tigers out of two, it's largely better than God Emperor

Order another poster from the Tleilaxu, this one is clearly defective

Riot Bimbo
Dec 28, 2006


Colonel Cancer posted:

I give children of dune two laser tigers out of two, it's largely better than God Emperor

please do not troll

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon
It doesn't have third wall breaking homophobic screeds and there's actual action and plot happening as opposed to some incel monologing at the reader for 3/4 of the book :shrug:

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Colonel Cancer posted:

It doesn't have third wall breaking homophobic screeds and there's actual action and plot happening as opposed to some incel monologing at the reader for 3/4 of the book :shrug:

Yeah it's lame

lt_kennedy
Sep 2, 2007
Needs Moar Race
Just cracked into the begining of book 2 of DUNE which I always marveled at the accessories the Fremen have made out of spice by products and the purported excellence of its manufacturing? Probs trade with smugglers had something to trade for considering the cost of deep space travel

busalover
Sep 12, 2020

Colonel Cancer posted:

It doesn't have third wall breaking homophobic screeds and there's actual action and plot happening as opposed to some incel monologing at the reader for 3/4 of the book :shrug:

I was looking at the cover art thinking it might as well be called "Goon Lord of Arrakis" and sounds like I wasn't wrong lol

Mumpy Puffinz
Aug 11, 2008
Nap Ghost

busalover posted:

I was looking at the cover art thinking it might as well be called "Goon Lord of Arrakis" and sounds like I wasn't wrong lol

we don't talk about Lowtax anymore

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Colonel Cancer posted:

It doesn't have third wall breaking homophobic screeds and there's actual action and plot happening as opposed to some incel monologing at the reader for 3/4 of the book :shrug:

Third wall, like, stage right?

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Colonel Cancer posted:

Fremen are a society

"Excuse me..."
"What?"
"You sipped from the Water of Life, you put the Water of Life down, then ya picked it up and sipped again! You double sipped!"

Bubblyblubber
Nov 17, 2014
Children is great because of the dumbass tigers, Goon Emperor is great because of the D-Wolves, Chapterhouse is great because of the chairdogs.

The hosed up animals are frank at his finest and if you claim you don't like them you're a goddamn liar.

Spermando
Jun 13, 2009
The whole conceit of secretly superintelligent 9 year olds didn't work for me and I think the miniseries made the right choice by making them twice as old. Also, some characters didn't act like themselves or were underutilized. I liked the more campy and bizarre aspects of the story, like Jessica's men sniping anyone who didn't bend the knee fast enough or Farad'n's slow realization of how life is going to be like with his in-laws.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I keep telling ya, Broadway musical.
*enter the baron Harkonnen*
I hate every Fremen that I see
From A-treides to Atreideez
You’ll never make a chair dog out of meeee
*Giant stone head from cover of Dune: Messiah appears in background*
Oh my god, I was wrong.
Maud’dib was Paul all along.
Yes you’ve finally made a Chair Dog
Yes we’ve finally made a chair dog
Yes you’ve finally made a chair dog out of meeeeeeeee!!!
I love you Dr. Yueh!

Riot Bimbo
Dec 28, 2006


I'll take incel on the cross monologues over uncomfortably sexualizing kiddos and idk it has the least to say, is the most straightforwardly a narrative with next to no subtext

God Emperor has problematic poo poo but like all of these books do and just by virtue of not having weird bullshit about kids in spice orgies or bene gesserit imprinters lamenting their mission to bone a 12 year old for an entire book, makes it way easier to read than children or heretics/chapterhouse

Imo all worth reading for other reasons but naw children is the weakest and there's nothing interesting offsetting the problematik there

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016

R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Samuel L. Hacksaw posted:

Dune is best suited to kabuki.



...maybe you're on to something here

Avynte
Jun 30, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Bubblyblubber posted:

Children is great because of the dumbass tigers, Goon Emperor is great because of the D-Wolves, Chapterhouse is great because of the chairdogs.

The hosed up animals are frank at his finest and if you claim you don't like them you're a goddamn liar.

I always was curious of more info on the House Ferrets. It was just a throwaway mention, but I loved the idea of (most likely) bio-engineered super ferrets roaming the keeps looking to kill biological intruders.

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lt_kennedy
Sep 2, 2007
Needs Moar Race

galagazombie posted:

*enter the baron Harkonnen*
I hate every Fremen that I see
From A-treides to Atreideez
You’ll never make a chair dog out of meeee
*Giant stone head from cover of Dune: Messiah appears in background*
Oh my god, I was wrong.
Maud’dib was Paul all along.
Yes you’ve finally made a Chair Dog
Yes we’ve finally made a chair dog
Yes you’ve finally made a chair dog out of meeeeeeeee!!!
I love you Dr. Yueh!

I will be giggling like an idiot all day now thanks!!!

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