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Siivola posted:This is a really weird design standard, by the way. 45% of attack actions whiffing entirely is a lot! The thing that's kind of obscured in hyphz's optimization story is that the way martial combatants generally work in pathfinder 2e is using one action to move, one action to disable or otherwise debilitate the enemy, and then as a result of that hitting easier on the third. So pretty reliably you're hitting more often than that, with the specific way of how you're doing it matching your style/fiction (and if you and another PC are attacking the same target you're likely applying multiple such effects, making it even easier). The optimization strategy hyphz is describing is the entire party being built to play off the most extreme version of that, with the gnome flickmace making it a prone effect instead of something that doesn't create more attacks in and of itself (such as frightened, which hyphz also mentions). e: so i looked up some of the stuff hyphz mentions. in pathfinder 2e, things have an assigned rarity (the GM can change this during play as they see fit, but it's basically giving GMs control over stuff they might not want in their game.) that explicitly says what things the PCs can get whenever they want so just from the pieces he mentions, the two fighters either need to be gnomes or somehow have access to uncommon gnome weapons (requires GM permission), then everyone needs to have a specific multiclass (talisman dabbler), then on top of each PC needs the uncommon formula for how to make an uncommon item (the talisman of the muse thing). so it's basically spherical cows never actually gonna happen outside of charop wet dreams poo poo. Arivia fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 14:40
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I thought it would be cool to play Swashbuckler, but the problem is one that comes up with the other martial classes too. When you have panache, you’re as good as a Fighter but not better, and you have to make effort to get it which a fighter doesn’t. So the “swashbuckler” comes off in practice as a blowhard who is showing off needlessly while the fighter gets the job done. Just to add insult to injury the fighter can take Swashbuckler Dedication for the best of both worlds!
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Feb 14, 2022 14:57
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Arivia posted:The thing that's kind of obscured in hyphz's optimization story is that the way martial combatants generally work in pathfinder 2e is using one action to move, one action to disable or otherwise debilitate the enemy, and then as a result of that hitting easier on the third. So pretty reliably you're hitting more often than that, with the specific way of how you're doing it matching your style/fiction (and if you and another PC are attacking the same target you're likely applying multiple such effects, making it even easier).
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Feb 14, 2022 15:02
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Siivola posted:Thanks! That'll come in handy once we get the game going. At least between the core rulebook and the APG, seeing these connections is pretty easy - you play a rogue, you pick which kind of rogue, that tells you your attacks work like this, and then you can pick class/skill feats that facilitate that that fit the idea of what kind of rogue you want to be as an example. (There's also sample builds.)
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Feb 14, 2022 15:05
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PF2e in general is very teamwork oriented since going for a thing that increases the success chance of the other people in the group is usually one of the better options you could be doing
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Feb 14, 2022 15:07
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hyphz posted:I thought it would be cool to play Swashbuckler, but the problem is one that comes up with the other martial classes too. When you have panache, you’re as good as a Fighter but not better, and you have to make effort to get it which a fighter doesn’t. So the “swashbuckler” comes off in practice as a blowhard who is showing off needlessly while the fighter gets the job done. Just to add insult to injury the fighter can take Swashbuckler Dedication for the best of both worlds! I'm having the opposite problem in my 5e campaign; our paladin is pretty conservative with his smites and the soul knife rogue consistently outclasses him damage-wise (at level 10 now, he'll get divine strikes or whatever that adds 1d8 radiant damage on every hit soon). He'll take two attacks and chunk off half of a lower CR enemy's health if he's not hasted, then the rogue will go next and completely obliterate the same monster from 60 feet away with sneak attack damage that deals more than their original health total. At least he has buff spells, if I were a fighter in that position I'd probably feel kind of neutered
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Feb 14, 2022 15:19
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13th Age's dice riders are... not great technology as implemented on the player end. On the GM side, though? <chef kiss/> Technology I've started folding in to other games. Makes GMing big ol' messy combat so, so much simpler.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:37
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CitizenKeen posted:13th Age's dice riders are... not great technology as implemented on the player end.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:51
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After years upon years of not really reading pre-built encounters, or sometimes my own, until right at game night, and going "so wait, what do they do, how can they work together", I'm ready for the widespread arrival of dice-based built-in monster AI.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:02
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Mr.Misfit posted:Question for the thread: I dimly remember a rpg being announced about playing skeleton space explorers in a kind of melancholic story-game. Anyone know what that game is called or where I can find it? Weirdly, although 'melancholic story game about skeletons' and 'melancholic story game about space exploration' are both vast fields, I can't bring to mind the intersection you're asking after. Got any more details?
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Feb 14, 2022 16:45
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NGDBSS posted:Yeah, I'm one of the folks in jimbozig's playtest group for a Strike! successor and he's put in some work on randomized AI for neutral critters ("creeps"). The base structure works pretty well to the point where the GM can ask the players to run things. So loving envious. My Lovely Horse posted:After years upon years of not really reading pre-built encounters, or sometimes my own, until right at game night, and going "so wait, what do they do, how can they work together", I'm ready for the widespread arrival of dice-based built-in monster AI. Yeah, it's great tech. It's really upped my willingness to add more zaniness to encounters. Before 13th Age, I would never improv more than two monsters in an encounter. I'd do three if I had ten minutes to think through the stat blocks, and I'd only do 4+ if it was a big setpiece that I had paid a lot of attention to. In 13th Age, I'm happy to just throw six different creatures with different stat blocks into an encounter I just made up, knowing it'll run fine.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:53
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Emberwind also has a really nice enemy AI system, and I'm excited about the one in Summon Skate, too (if only that game was less annoying to run online....)
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Feb 14, 2022 16:55
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Mr.Misfit posted:Question for the thread: I dimly remember a rpg being announced about playing skeleton space explorers in a kind of melancholic story-game. Anyone know what that game is called or where I can find it? Necronautilus?
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Feb 14, 2022 17:05
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It's not Necronautilus, but thank you =/ potatocubed posted:Weirdly, although 'melancholic story game about skeletons' and 'melancholic story game about space exploration' are both vast fields, I can't bring to mind the intersection you're asking after. Got any more details? It was about a human future in which true deep-space exploration can only happen by skeletons which are basically electronically-assisted undead representing the dead elders venturing into space for the good of humanity...I think? I know that I saw it and/or its cover on SA but I can't for the life of me figure out the title or who would be writing it -_-
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Feb 14, 2022 17:16
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Bit late to tiered success chat but tiered success (of the beat/fail the dc by X kind) combined with buckets situational +Ys is kind of a nightmare. One of the few advantages of binary success/fail is that if someone's base to-hit +roll is sufficiently high/low you can say "you hit/miss, stop counting, roll your damage it's Dave's go now". But if you've two tiers you double how often you actually have to care about that situational +1, three tiers you triple etc. This is not an issue in a game where you only make a few, very meaningful rolls, or bonuses are few and far between, or bonuses come in manners other than a dozen +x nickels and dimes per round, but if you do have a game where you can be making multiple rolls a round over several rounds against variable DCs with variable to-hits and multiple situational nickel and dime bonuses... well, good luck to you.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:20
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Damnit, I don't need to spend money on more weird prog rock indie RPGs I'll never convince someone to play! ...oh who am I kidding, yes I do 
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Feb 14, 2022 17:30
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NGDBSS posted:Strike! successor Oh poo poo How can I pay for this
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Feb 14, 2022 17:42
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Arivia posted:so it's basically spherical cows never actually gonna happen outside of charop wet dreams poo poo. who gives players a bunch of mechanical options that obviously and excitingly synergize with each other and then goes "lol no, actually, you'll never have all the pieces for this", and who then acts like that's a good thing and not stupid as hell
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Feb 14, 2022 18:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:who gives players a bunch of mechanical options that obviously and excitingly synergize with each other and then goes "lol no, actually, you'll never have all the pieces for this", and who then acts like that's a good thing and not stupid as hell When you make an rpg with a shitton of character options and even more party compositions, there are going be some things that are mechanically better than others. It's not a horrible thing as long the baseline works and the gap between the strong choices and the weak ones isn't too big.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:06
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If you can get your entire group to try to win Pathfinder, you can have it imo.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:10
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... and then the DM can make the encounters +X% harder than expected per level and you're pretty much where you started?
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Feb 14, 2022 18:12
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Andrast posted:When you make an rpg with a shitton of character options and even more party compositions, there are going be some things that are mechanically better than others. It's not a horrible thing as long the baseline works and the gap between the strong choices and the weak ones isn't too big. all of this is correct but also kind of perpendicular to what i'm saying. if something is strong enough to break the game it should just be removed outright, not by dangling the possibility in front of players while simultaneously ensuring that the RNG / GM's hand-picked loot is too stingy for it to ever actually happen
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Feb 14, 2022 18:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:all of this is correct but also kind of perpendicular to what i'm saying. if something is strong enough to break the game it should just be removed outright, not by dangling the possibility in front of players while simultaneously ensuring that the RNG / GM's hand-picked loot is too stingy for it to ever actually happen Sure, that's reasonable. I don't think the thing Hyphz described really breaks the game though.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:17
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I don't think it's possible to make a game as complex as Pathfinder or most versions of D&D without stuff like this. The business model pushes you to release supplements with player options, and you can't release hundreds of player options without traps, clear winners, and broken combos.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:25
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Dehumanise yourself and face to One Guy's Design For A Party Blueprint Do you all show up on Friday night and Bob says, "Okay, I've done some Googling and this is the optimal character for you, Mary. Your action rotation is Move, Demoralise, Slicing Blow. Watch me for any changes" Gort fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 18:25
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think it's possible to make a game as complex as Pathfinder or most versions of D&D without stuff like this. The business model pushes you to release supplements with player options, and you can't release hundreds of player options without traps, clear winners, and broken combos. i mean sure but their stupid business model causing stupid design problems isn't going to make me stop criticizing it. if anything it makes me even more eager  e: also i don't know if Paizo is necessarily up to the task but Magic, for example, is equally complex if not moreso than D&D / Pathfinder (especially in terms of how many disparate effects can potentially interact with each other) and still manages to have comprehensive errata and mostly-sensible ban lists for the problems they genuinely can't solve. even at this scale it's not impossible, it's just labor-intensive and not profitable for anything that isn't "a competitive game played for six-digit prize pools" Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 18:26
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I want more dumb supplements with more dumb poo poo that i can do dumb character builds with
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Feb 14, 2022 18:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i mean sure but their stupid business model causing stupid design problems isn't going to make me stop criticizing it. if anything it makes me even more eager What would that look like? Would they constantly be publishing new PHBs/Monster Manuals and explicitly telling people not to mix and match if they want a good time?
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Feb 14, 2022 18:37
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I don't think mtg mechanics really translate to this comparison since it's going for an entirely different thing. MTG has a ton of cards that are just explicitly poo poo or amazing. Entire archetypes live and die by the whims of the current meta.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What would that look like? Would they constantly be publishing new PHBs/Monster Manuals and explicitly telling people not to mix and match if they want a good time? honestly? yeah! a bunch of setting-specific player and GM options that all run on the same core system, or even the same core system with slight rules changes, would be an excellent way to have a supplement treadmill without actually creating an exponential explosion of broken combinations. it's how Fragged * stuff works if you want a real life example! Andrast posted:I don't think mtg mechanics really translate to this comparison since it's going for an entirely different thing. the poo poo cards basically don't matter and the amazing cards in each format support a wide variety of archetypes and game plans that are relatively balanced among themselves. after all the goal is basically balance at the level of decks, not individual cards Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 18:40
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Andrast posted:MTG has a ton of cards that are just explicitly poo poo or amazing. Entire archetypes live and die by the whims of the current meta.  real game And I speak as someone who enjoys Limited.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:honestly? yeah! a bunch of setting-specific player and GM options that all run on the same core system, or even the same core system with slight rules changes, would be an excellent way to have a supplement treadmill without actually creating an exponential explosion of broken combinations. it's how Fragged * stuff works if you want a real life example! Nobody is forcing anyone to use all the supplements in a tabletop rpg, it's not a competitive format where it matters. If you want to do a game using only core rulebook or APG classes or only use stuff found in the Mwangi expanse, you can just do that. I feel like you are really overselling the quality of mtg balancing too.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:47
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Fragged is kind of a key example because I love it, but I'm trying to teach myself the system and the equipment system is kind of illegible. Then, lo and behold, the creators put out equipment lists in the sourcebooks. These are just examples of how to use the Base Weapon Type + Mods rules in the corebook, but examples are important.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:47
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Siivola posted:MTG printing trash cards isn't actually good design by any metric, though. It's done to keep people buying boosters instead of letting them have the the existence of trap options definitely sucks (and in Magic's case there are absolutely gross cynical commercial reasons why they have so many trap options) but from a pure gameplay standpoint, it's a problem that can be "solved" by getting better at the game, while OP options can only be solved by either developer intervention or by really awkward and annoying self-policing Andrast posted:Nobody is forcing anyone to use all the supplements in a tabletop rpg, it's not a competitive format where it matters. If you want to do a game using only core rulebook or APG classes or only use stuff found in the Mwangi expanse, you can just do that. balance doesn't only matter in a competitive context. a game that invites you to optimize but can't withstand optimization is a lovely game i don't actually care how a game gets to the point of "can withstand optimization" -- if you want to make your bajillion options work together without any broken outliers, great, if you come to me and tell me "but that's impossible!" then you can do the Fragged model; either's fine as long as it gets there Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 18:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:honestly? yeah! a bunch of setting-specific player and GM options that all run on the same core system, or even the same core system with slight rules changes, would be an excellent way to have a supplement treadmill without actually creating an exponential explosion of broken combinations. it's how Fragged * stuff works if you want a real life example! I didn't mean to come off as belligerent, I was genuinely wondering how it would translate. That does sound like an interesting way of going about it.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:balance doesn't only matter in a competitive context. a game that invites you to optimize but can't withstand optimization is a lovely game Pathfinder 2 withstands optimization just fine
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Feb 14, 2022 18:52
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Andrast posted:Pathfinder 2 withstands optimization just fine i have no strong opinions on Pathfinder 2E one way or the other
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Feb 14, 2022 18:54
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Oh so you were just taking a pot shot at Arivia, sure.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:55
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Andrast posted:Pathfinder 2 withstands optimization just fine It still plays, but it gets very samey, and limits players' choices of build. Does anyone know anything about the mysterious Korean game that's been sitting #1/#2 on DTRPG for a while now? Google Translate on the synopsis gives: quote:World made of snow and rain It appears to be a Cthulhu supplement, also.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:56
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Siivola posted:Oh so you were just taking a pot shot at Arivia, sure. i was taking a pot shot at "you should balance games by making the busted outcome probabilistically unlikely, or by pretending something is possible while taking steps behind the scenes to make sure it isn't" and would have done so whoever was saying it
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