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I just suspect it's probably gonna have soap opera level writing. [edit: fanfic is more precise, fanfic level writing] What the Marvel universe has, and the real reason for their success, is decades of back stories that can be mined for ideas and adaptations and twists and conceits. Not all of it is good -- it's a mountain of poo poo with nuggets of gold -- but the nuggets are there and the movie writers have generally done a good job of finding them. There's a great ratio of (background story material to mine) to (minutes of screentime). What the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings movies had was a source novel that was probably the greatest single novel of the 20th century and they remained fairly faithful to it and it worked. They were still a bit overlong, especially in the extended editions, but there was enough meat there and it worked -- about 900 pages over about 9 hours was just about the right ratio. With the Hobbit films though they tried to stretch a 300 page book into like 9 hours of cinema and it just fell flat, "butter scraped over too much bread." This series by contrast is stuck trying to adapt what's basically a few collated encyclopedia articles and appendix entries into . .. apparently five seasons of television? There's not enough there there, even if you view the encyclopedia articles and appendix entries as condensed butter. I hope I'm wrong because I want more fantasy adaptations generally and a failure will be bad for all the other things I'm enjoying (vox machina, WoT). But I just don't see how there's gonna be enough meat on this sandwich, not unless they get lucky and hire a writing team that's Tolkien-while-writing-LotR good. (I suspect the Vox Machina adaptation is good for similar reasons --- they're taking like a thousand hours of D&D tabletop and condensing it down to six hours of animation, so they can skim off the highlights). Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 16:44
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Well I think it's already been pretty well established, especially by that VF article, they're coming up with quite a bit of new, original material. That's not to say it won't be "soap opera-level writing" (perish the thought) but there's also, what, 22 named characters they've announced? I would imagine there's plenty of material, both to adapt and to conjure up wholesale, to make the show potentially quite good writing-wise. The development-by-committee sense I got from the same article is not too promising, but whatever. Put me in the camp of "probably will be bad, I'm hoping not, no reason to condemn it at this point, and if it is bad, so what."
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Feb 14, 2022 16:51
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Mahoning posted:I have a feeling that these idiots are interpreting that quote to mean “anything new = evil” which is not what it means. To be fair to them Amazon is astonishingly evil.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:55
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TipTow posted:Well I think it's already been pretty well established, especially by that VF article, they're coming up with quite a bit of new, original material. Yeah, I mean, sure. It might be great! I'm just going in expecting it to be basically Tolkien fanfic. Which, fine, I mean, I've watched and even enjoyed plenty of less-than-stellar media over the years. I'm just not getting excited is all. I'm sure I'll watch some of it at least eventually. I mean, I even saw one of the Hobbit movies in the theater, I might watch the rest of them someday too.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:55
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Mahoning posted:I have a feeling that these idiots are interpreting that quote to mean “anything new = evil” which is not what it means. It's more that to them anything even vaguely progressive in media is their own turf getting invaded by outsiders looking to steal and pervert their fun without adding anything of value. These comments are geek resentment crystallized.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:02
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Pretty funny to me how the Jackson movies if nothing else succeeded in opening up a HUGE previously untapped market for Tolkien material, i.e. women Gamergate style nerds: this is the worst thing ever
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Feb 14, 2022 17:06
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Data Graham posted:Pretty funny to me how the Jackson movies if nothing else succeeded in opening up a HUGE previously untapped market for Tolkien material, i.e. women Yeah like, regardless of the actual quality, i think this will do very well because the amount of people getting hyped for this that have been underserved by fantasy is significant. Nerdy people on social media are excited as hell for POC and women with major roles in Tolkien stuff
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Feb 14, 2022 17:10
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YaketySass posted:It's more that to them anything even vaguely progressive in media is their own turf getting invaded by outsiders looking to steal and pervert their fun without adding anything of value. These comments are geek resentment crystallized. There's also a large cottage industry of, well, hate-mongering youtubers whose entire business model is based on generating hate clicks about various franchises being too "left" "woke" etc. So anything that comes out is gonna get attacked anyway for being too left-wing even if all it does is "have a woman in it who keeps her shirt on the whole time." Because people are making money by making sure other people are angry all the time about women keeping their shirts on.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just suspect it's probably gonna have soap opera level writing. [edit: fanfic is more precise, fanfic level writing] What comic book movies have is a very easy and repeatable formula. If you've seen one of those films you've seen them all. And anyone going to see one knows exactly what to expect and they get that delivered to them almost every time.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:22
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I've seen a bunch of black people and women just absolutely thrilled at the casting and stuff, and frankly I'm happy for them no matter what even if the show sucks to me.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:23
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Ginette Reno posted:What comic book movies have is a very easy and repeatable formula. If you've seen one of those films you've seen them all. And anyone going to see one knows exactly what to expect and they get that delivered to them almost every time. That's true of virtually all modern filmmaking ever since George Lucas found a copy of The Hero with a Thousand Faces.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:23
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Goddamn, these people are PISSED. Just absolutely FURIOUS that there are black people on their show. I don't doubt that a lot of it is a few people with bot accounts but holy poo poo. Its also funny seeing them whine about how "Amazon is putting their politics in the show" because we've seen like a few screenshots and like 5 seconds of the show so the only thing that could be referring to his having black people in it.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's true of virtually all modern filmmaking ever since George Lucas found a copy of The Hero with a Thousand Faces. nah, most films aren't based on comic books
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Feb 14, 2022 17:25
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The irony of dweebs whining about the wokeism in TRoP being "untrue" to what Tolkien wrote is Tolkien himself bastardized howevermany genuine European mythologies in his writings. That's what the Legendarium is, right? Largely a pastiche of various real-world mythologies to create a new, synthetic "mythology" for Europe, or England/Britain at the least? I know I'm preaching to the choir here but it's all so dumb even if you ignore the actual racism that's fueling the dyspepsia.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:39
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Runcible Cat posted:To be fair to them Amazon is astonishingly evil. We don’t need to be fair to the racists even if you’re correct. Man, they’re even mad that the black elf has a buzz cut because there’s no way there was hair clippers in middle earth! Yet clocks exist in middle earth.
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Feb 14, 2022 17:39
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Yeah Tolkien had basically read every European folkstory and uses a lot of them
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Feb 14, 2022 17:40
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A Moose posted:Goddamn, these people are PISSED. Just absolutely FURIOUS that there are black people on their show. I don't doubt that a lot of it is a few people with bot accounts but holy poo poo. Its also funny seeing them whine about how "Amazon is putting their politics in the show" because we've seen like a few screenshots and like 5 seconds of the show so the only thing that could be referring to his having black people in it. “We aren’t racist or sexist, we’re just the victims because we are being denied our traditional(ly racist and sexist material)” Other complaints I saw on Reddit: —stories about single mothers, but not the good kind, whatever that means. —They’ll probably have gay bars I know LoTR isn’t an explicitly lgbtq story but it’s not exactly not. Like rank your least gay story: Gimli/Legolas, Merry/Pippin, Sam/Frodo, or “traditional bachelor” Bilbo
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Feb 14, 2022 17:53
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keep your reddit stuff on reddit if anyone here wants to read reddit they can go there themselves
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Feb 14, 2022 17:56
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Counterpoint, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOqb_UzJSUQ
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Feb 14, 2022 18:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's also a large cottage industry of, well, hate-mongering youtubers whose entire business model is based on generating hate clicks about various franchises being too "left" "woke" etc. So anything that comes out is gonna get attacked anyway for being too left-wing even if all it does is "have a woman in it who keeps her shirt on the whole time." Because people are making money by making sure other people are angry all the time about women keeping their shirts on. That last point seems a bit off point since one of the concerns of Amazon's series was going to be that they would GOT it up with sex scenes and the like, compared to the rather chaste Jackson's trilogy. So I've read this Amazon series is going to have a human-elf relationship (I haven't paid much attention since I figured it would not be good). I know that Amazon is basically creating their own story and canon, but doesn't that contradict Silmarillion stuff? I swore I read that there were only 3 human/elf unions throughout all of Middle Earth's history, making Aragorn/Arwen (And Beren/Luthien, and the other one) so significant. That's not just creating their own canon, that's legit contradicting established writing if it's true.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:08
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euphronius posted:Yeah Tolkien had basically read every European folkstory and uses a lot of them There is a difference between creating your own story while being informed by lore/narratives that existed before and changing an already existing story to fit your creative vision. Tolkin did not write "Lord of the Rings - A Beowolf Novel" but his own original story. How faithful an adaption is to the original is a valid discussion in my view, even though a very loose adaption is not necessarily bad. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 18:08
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:That last point seems a bit off point since one of the concerns of Amazon's series was going to be that they would GOT it up with sex scenes and the like, compared to the rather chaste Jackson's trilogy. To me, that's in the realm of "how would they know that?" There may have only been 3 well documented ones, but overall that also stems from Tolkien's prudishness. To posit that this immortal race of beings that fly off the handle all the goddamn time would not get horny is pretty silly. There are lots and lots of elves, and the idea that they all never got it on with humans is kinda unbelievable on it's face. I think what we will see will be akin to The Eternals where 2 characters clearly have sex, but its not explicitly shown or anything. Which again is fine to me because Tolkien was weird as hell about sex and that does not need to be made immutable.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:17
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Mahoning posted:We don’t need to be fair to the racists even if you’re correct. The racists are fuckwits, no argument there. And it's nice to see a TON more inclusivity than Jackson managed. But Amazon are still evil. I find myself hoping it's gently caress-awful just so I won't want to see it... 
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Feb 14, 2022 18:17
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Runcible Cat posted:The racists are fuckwits, no argument there. And it's nice to see a TON more inclusivity than Jackson managed. just pirate it
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Feb 14, 2022 18:18
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Runcible Cat posted:The racists are fuckwits, no argument there. And it's nice to see a TON more inclusivity than Jackson managed. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:20
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The biggest problem the show has is it being compared to the Jackson Trilogy. Those films are quite literally on a Godfather Part 1&2 level of film making(I think the trilogy has something like 20 Oscar wins and 30 nominations) pretty much everything about them are perfect. I think anyone going in expecting something on that level again is surely gonna end up disappointed. Despite the seemingly muted response on the internet so far, I remain cautiously optimistic about this. Call me crazy if you want but I'm really liking the look of Galadriel in this.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:21
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Sure the industry can participate in a lot of cynical corporate pandering without any attempt at meaningful representation just to check a box, but this is probably one of the easier lore inserts ever to make space for meaningful representation. Theyre already taking a ton of creative liberties with the source material so "one time an elf boned a dark skinned human" isnt exactly a stretch.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:33
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:That last point seems a bit off point since one of the concerns of Amazon's series was going to be that they would GOT it up with sex scenes and the like, compared to the rather chaste Jackson's trilogy. Those 3 pairs get talked up as the significant ones (because that's where the royal families come from), but even in LOTR the people of Dol Amroth get talked about as having elven blood. Doesn't seem like a stretch to think there are other cross-species relationships that don't get focused on in the myth. Currently feeling cautiously hopeful that there'll be something worth watching here. As mentioned, it will all come down to the writing. They don't really get to cherrypick a large canon the way that MCU stuff does (or arguably the Expanse), but on the other hand there's so little pre-written stuff that they won't necessarily have to contort much to make it fit.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:43
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GordonTheDeadFish posted:Those 3 pairs get talked up as the significant ones (because that's where the royal families come from), but even in LOTR the people of Dol Amroth get talked about as having elven blood. Appreciate that clarification, forgot about that. I'm going to treat this this series as expensive fan fiction. If it's good and the concern is unwarranted I might watch it, if it's bad, well, there's lot of bad fan fiction. Still got the original novels/movies.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:48
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If all this series gives us a is a killer opening or any flashbacks that show major events from the first age a la the opening of Fellowship, Ill take it.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:49
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AccountSupervisor posted:If all this series gives us a is a killer opening or any flashbacks that show major events from the first age a la the opening of Fellowship, Ill take it. There’s a rumor that the first two episodes are essentially a 3 hour long prologue setting up the state of the world after the events of the First Age. So you may get your wish.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:55
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AccountSupervisor posted:If all this series gives us a is a killer opening or any flashbacks that show major events from the first age a la the opening of Fellowship, Ill take it. considering one of the promo shots shows Tirion and the Two Trees this will happen 
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Feb 14, 2022 19:02
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WoodrowSkillson posted:considering one of the promo shots shows Tirion and the Two Trees this will happen I bet the elves who lived on the wrong side of Túna were secretly happy when the Sun went up and they finally started to get some light on their houses.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:21
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"The writing" is key, but in particular the character development is a specific part of the writing that I would love to see them really nail. Characters are why you tune in to see a favorite show, more so than the setting or the story (I'm speaking in broad generalities here of course), and they're where fans' favorite one-liners and memes and investment come from. I doubt anyone outside nerd circles is really fascinated to learn more about where the Rings of Power come from or what Sauron was like in Númenor, but they'll tune in for a new swashbuckling fantasy adventure the way they did in record numbers for WoT. But I felt like WoT kind of whiffed the character development part*, leaving only a sort of confusing metaphysical mess and a sprawling world to feel lost in. TRoP could end up in the same place no matter how cool the CGI looks or how faithful it is to the Tale of Years; what it will depend on is whether people want to see what Galadriel and Elrond and the OCs are going to do in the next episode because they like these characters. * I'm actually not sure what I'd cite in support of this, in fact it seems when I think about it that the character work was actually about as good as they could have done it, but my knee-jerk feeling at a mental glance backward was "I don't really care that much about these people" Data Graham fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 19:27
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WoodrowSkillson posted:considering one of the promo shots shows Tirion and the Two Trees this will happen Oh yeah I know its going to happen in some capacity, its probably the main thing driving my interest in the show at this point. That screenshot alone sent my expectations much higher than I initially had when it was released. I just hope its not fleeting and they really drive home the scope of everything. Something like the LOTR trilogy just carries so much more weight when you fully understand the context of what they are going up against. Understanding what Sauron actually represents, how significant something like battling a Balrog in the Third Age is, what Aragorn descended from in fuller detail, etc. Ive always enjoyed giving non-Tolkien nerds a bit more context to the events of LOTR during rewatches so it'll be cool if, despite this show not being a prequel to the films, this show at least can somewhat enrich the experience of watching the films or re-reading the books(outside of The Silmarillion). Really I just want to see a bit of the War of Wrath and Earendil killing Ancalagon. Why youd spend 420mil to not show a miles long dragon duking it out with Elronds dad during a 40 year long battle is beyond me.
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Feb 14, 2022 19:36
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Maybe the Galadriel prologue narrations will cover the entire First Age in five minutes flat.
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Feb 14, 2022 21:52
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Arc Hammer posted:Maybe the Galadriel prologue narrations will cover the entire First Age in five minutes flat. I don't know about five minutes but I'd be willing to bet they do use Galadriel as a sort-of narrator throughout the series as Jackson did with the films. That's one deviation from the books that I think worked really well, especially for helping non-dweebs unfamiliar with the material stitch events together.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:20
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Another article has been posted by Vanity Fair and it reveals a lot more info. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/10-burning-questions-about-amazons-the-rings-of-power Howard Shore is back! That teaser poster featuring a sword with the sunburst on the hilt is Narsil John Howe is working on the show Also, their rights include everything in the LOTR books and the Hobbit, including appendices. But they can feature characters like say Gil-Galad simply from the song in…..is it Fellowship? Mahoning fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:52
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From that article:quote:In the footage that premiered in the Rings of Power Super Bowl teaser, audiences caught a glimpse of a tall, mysterious man who falls from the sky. Our immediate instinct is to wonder if he’s one of the wizards even the most casual fans might have heard of. In Tolkien’s text, they didn’t come to Middle-earth until the Third Age, but is the show taking some added liberties with the timeline? When asked if this might be Gandalf, Radagast, or Saruman, McKay answered cautiously, “Well, I would say those are not the only beings, those names, in that class. So maybe, but maybe not. And the mystery and the journey of it is all of the fun, I would say.” Blue wizards maybe confirmed
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Feb 14, 2022 23:11
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The more I hear these guys talk the more pessimistic I feel. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:32
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