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Gripweed posted:Aren't we sending "lethal aid" to Ukraine? At the request of Ukraine, yes. But what does that have to do with Russia staging a possible invasion? We provide a lot of military aid. The action of violence is being taken by Russia, not Ukraine, and Ukraine, a non-NATO nation, is asking for help with self-defense. Should we have just told them they are screwed?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:01
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Panzeh posted:That's an interesting kind of opposition. It reminds me of a libertrarian saying 'i'm opposed to poverty, but doing anything about it would be tyranny' gently caress off with this poo poo. If you want for us to do something more than nothing I'm actively cheering that sleepy joe falls asleep at the wheel and this leads to the dissolution of NATO and the EU
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Feb 14, 2022 22:02
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Terminal autist posted:gently caress off with this poo poo. If you want for us to do something more than nothing I'm actively cheering that sleepy joe falls asleep at the wheel and this leads to the dissolution of NATO and the EU Why would you cheer at the dissolution of the EU? That doesn't seem like something good to hope for.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:03
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TipTow posted:Would you like to actually discuss this and not post like a petty dick? Gripweed made a good point about there being a lot of nuance to what's going on right now and people misinterpreting positions and thoughts, intentionally or no. I’m very interested to see nuanced evidence of NATO pursuing having a land border with Russia in the Baltics.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:04
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CommieGIR posted:At the request of Ukraine, yes. But what does that have to do with Russia staging a possible invasion? We provide a lot of military aid. The action of violence is being taken by Russia, not Ukraine, and Ukraine, a non-NATO nation, is asking for help with self-defense. Should we have just told them they are screwed?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:05
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m very interested to see nuanced evidence of NATO pursuing having a land border with Russia in the Baltics. Here, let me dig up all the classified docs from the State Department and DoD I have access to discussing this  You tell me, then: what did the U.S. et al gain from adding the Baltics to their security umbrella? It's not the 2% military spending on their puny budgets.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:07
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How are u posted:Why would you cheer at the dissolution of the EU? That doesn't seem like something good to hope for. Germany can dictate the politics for Europe without all the grandstanding and added bureaucracy
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Feb 14, 2022 22:07
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im not sure i understand the invocations of us military intervention when it's been made abundantly clear that the us and other members of NATO have zero interest in involving themselves in a war with russia over ukraine. that the arms (and threats of sanctions) have been framed solely as a deterrent, to make a possible invasion appear so costly that russia will delay or step back from an invasion
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Feb 14, 2022 22:08
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TipTow posted:And how big are their government budgets? Even if they're fulfilling their treaty obligations (and I have no doubt they are), that still leaves me wondering: what could these countries meaningfully contribute to a hot war involving NATO? Each of the Baltic nations are smaller than the one (1) state I live in, which is ranked 28th out of the 50 in population. These countries are tiny and are not, nor ever will be, big contributors to NATO's military capabilities. If you’re dissatisfied with our membership terms, ask more or kick us out. We’re doing everything that is being asked of us, and we were not shy to kill our citizens for your sake in Iraq and elsewhere. I think it would be cool if Latvia could allocate 1 trillion USD out of its budget for military expense, which you seem to be asking for, but we may have to fix our roads and start paying teachers and nurses liveable wage before then.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:08
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Terminal autist posted:Germany can dictate the politics for Europe without all the grandstanding and added bureaucracy Sorry, can you please elaborate? Are you saying the EU is bad because the grandstanding and added bureaucracy make it efficient and get in the way of Germany dictating the continent's politics?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:10
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I think it would be cool if Latvia could allocate 1 trillion USD out of its budget for military expense, which you seem to be asking for, but we may have to fix our roads and start paying teachers and nurses liveable wage before then. To be fair: The US should be doing that too.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:11
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QuoProQuid posted:im not sure i understand the invocations of us military intervention when it's been made abundantly clear that the us and other members of NATO have zero interest in involving themselves in a war with russia over ukraine. And the media is ghoulish because that's just what the media does. You can, however, absolutely criticize government spokesmen for sowing panic by declaring the imminence of a worst case scenario (since even taking for granted Russia will take hostile action there are degrees of magnitude possible), and getting confrontational with the odd media voices that press them to offer more than their word as backing.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:12
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you’re dissatisfied with our membership terms, ask more or kick us out. We’re doing everything that is being asked of us, and we were not shy to kill our citizens for your sake in Iraq and elsewhere. You are getting very, very weirdly personal about this. And besides, as I've stated multiple times, it's not about the Baltics' military capabilities. They don't exist. My government (not me, just lmao) is not concerned at all at what the Baltics bring to the table other than Russian containment. But hey, I'll be sure to write my Members of Congress demanding the expulsion of Latvia from NATO. I have total agency over my government, they'll listen to me.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:12
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TipTow posted:You tell me, then: what did the U.S. et al gain from adding the Baltics to their security umbrella? It's not the 2% military spending on their puny budgets. A freer, securer, wealthier Europe?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:13
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Paladinus posted:Are you sure Azov specifically get American weapons? I am legitimately not sure if it's the case, considering there was a push the US State Department to designate Azov a foreign terrorist organisation. Would it be fine if America only gave weapons to be used by non-nazi military units? That would certainly be better. But it would still be the US escalating a foreign war. I would still be opposed. I point out the Azov Battalion specifically because it makes my argument stronger when we're talking about literal nazi war criminals. And it weakens the argument that we should be helping Ukraine because Russia is bad morally. But in truth I don't think America should be providing military aid to basically anybody. CommieGIR posted:At the request of Ukraine, yes. But what does that have to do with Russia staging a possible invasion? We provide a lot of military aid. The action of violence is being taken by Russia, not Ukraine, and Ukraine, a non-NATO nation, is asking for help with self-defense. Should we have just told them they are screwed? Not in such words, but yeah we shouldn't be giving them weapons.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:13
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Russia didn't just put troops in the Donbass, it shot down a passenger jet with its troops in the Donbass. e: ^^ I think that isolationism is a legitimate position to take, but you might find it goes down better if you make a nod to the fact that the people crying out for help definitely aren't going to interpret US non-interference as being good for them Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:13
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QuoProQuid posted:im not sure i understand the invocations of us military intervention when it's been made abundantly clear that the us and other members of NATO have zero interest in involving themselves in a war with russia over ukraine. And according to the US government, it didn't work. Russia is going to invade anyway.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:15
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Gripweed posted:And according to the US government, it didn't work. Russia is going to invade anyway. Because Russia's demands were "NATO go west of Poland" and recognize Ukraine as a Russian satellite. Gripweed posted:That would certainly be better. But it would still be the US escalating a foreign war. I would still be opposed. The Azov Battalion is a problem. But so is the Wagner group who is also full of Nazis and is being employed on the Russian side in Ukraine.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:17
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TipTow posted:Here, let me dig up all the classified docs from the State Department and DoD I have access to discussing this Let us assume that NATO is inviting nations bordering Russia into their alliance for this nefarious purpose of getting a securing a land border with them. Why should Russia be allowed to us military force and imperial subjugation to remove their sovereignty as a means to prevent this? Are you contending this recruitment effort is a prelude to an invasion of Russia and this is a pre-emptive strike? Because unless you are contending that I don't see how Russia has any right to stop any country who feels like it from joining NATO.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:18
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Conspiratiorist posted:And the media is ghoulish because that's just what the media does. my understanding of the US posture here is that it's intended to fit into its larger deterrence campaign and to undercut domestic propaganda if/when it does invade. from the new york times: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/us/politics/russia-information-putin-biden.html quote:In recent weeks, the Biden administration has detailed the movement of Russian special operation forces to Ukraine’s borders, exposed a Russian plan to create a video of a faked atrocity as a pretext for an invasion, outlined Moscow’s war plans, warned that an invasion would result in possibly thousands of deaths and hinted that Russian officers had doubts about Mr. Putin. some skepticism is fair after the events of 2003 (which the article raises) but this is the justification that white house officials are providing and, apparently behind the scenes, substantiating to allies QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:18
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TipTow posted:Here, let me dig up all the classified docs from the State Department and DoD I have access to discussing this I apologise for having the audacity to inquire if there’s any whatsoever basis to your claims that seemingly were presented as facts. TipTow posted:You are getting very, very weirdly personal about this. And besides, as I've stated multiple times, it's not about the Baltics' military capabilities. They don't exist. My government (not me, just lmao) is not concerned at all at what the Baltics bring to the table other than Russian containment. I’m have no clue why you feel that I’m taking this personally. Propriety of our contributions to NATO is trivially verifiable.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:20
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Gripweed posted:That would certainly be better. But it would still be the US escalating a foreign war. I would still be opposed. As it turns out, America doesn't provide weapons to Azov since 2018, which I was relieved to learn. So there's at least that. Clearly, there are cases when military aid to sides of foreign conflicts is justified. I would say US did good with Lend-Lease during WWII, for example.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:24
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It's as if if you assume that NATO is a nefarious selfish US hegemony project then it makes no sense at all to bring in the Baltic states, but if it is a defensive alliance of liberal democracies born out of the repeated experience of the 20th century that non-aligned democracies that do not take defence seriously find themselves prey to authoritarian neighbours then it makes a lot more sense.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:24
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Domino Theory except for NATO
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Feb 14, 2022 22:24
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Sanguinia posted:Let us assume that NATO is inviting nations bordering Russia into their alliance for this nefarious purpose of getting a securing a land border with them. Why should Russia be allowed to us military force and imperial subjugation to remove their sovereignty as a means to prevent this? They shouldn't. Sanguinia posted:Are you contending this recruitment effort is a prelude to an invasion of Russia and this is a pre-emptive strike? The land border is a potential resource in the event of a war, yes. cinci zoo sniper posted:I apologise for having the audacity to inquire if there’s any whatsoever basis to your claims that seemingly were presented as facts. Where are the demands to see proof that adding the Baltics was all about peace, freedom, and democracy? I'd like to see that evidence. cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m have no clue why you feel that I’m taking this personally. Propriety of our contributions to NATO is trivially verifiable. cinci zoo sniper posted:If you’re dissatisfied with our membership terms, ask more or kick us out. We’re doing everything that is being asked of us, and we were not shy to kill our citizens for your sake in Iraq and elsewhere. And don't give me any bullshit about a "royal" you. Unless you believe all us Americans are a monolith or operate with some kind of hive mind.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:24
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Flavahbeast posted:This guy's the one who dragged Russia into the Donbass war, if you believe him: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598 That’s not his account, as far as I know. Last I checked him, he was only active on his VK page.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:25
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TipTow posted:And how big are their government budgets? Even if they're fulfilling their treaty obligations (and I have no doubt they are), that still leaves me wondering: what could these countries meaningfully contribute to a hot war involving NATO? Each of the Baltic nations are smaller than the one (1) state I live in, which is ranked 28th out of the 50 in population. These countries are tiny and are not, nor ever will be, big contributors to NATO's military capabilities. What's more they've been oppressing ethnic Russians far more heinously than Ukraine, what with denying them citizenship and forcibly assimilating them. Such a shame that the vile NATO allowed them to join, they could be part of the glorious mother Russia again by now. This post is sarcasm (but the underlying facts mostly are not).
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Feb 14, 2022 22:26
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CommieGIR posted:Because Russia's demands were "NATO go west of Poland" and recognize Ukraine as a Russian satellite. OK, so if Russia was always going to invade no matter what we did, what did we gain by arming Ukraine? CommieGIR posted:The Azov Battalion is a problem. But so is the Wagner group who is also full of Nazis and is being employed on the Russian side in Ukraine. Oh yeah, we absolutely should not be sending weapons to Russia either Paladinus posted:Clearly, there are cases when military aid to sides of foreign conflicts is justified. I would say US did good with Lend-Lease during WWII, for example. Sure, but that was 80 years ago. We don't have a great track record since then.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:27
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QuoProQuid posted:my understanding of the US posture here is that it's intended to fit into its larger deterrence campaign and to undercut domestic propaganda if/when it does invade. from the new york times: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/us/politics/russia-information-putin-biden.html Again, there's a difference in trying to provide deterrence through being clear you believe in the possibility of hostile action as well as offering likely timetables for such, and another is consistently sending messaging implying the most likely course of action for Russia is a complete invasion with tens of thousands of casualties and destruction of Ukraine's major urban centers. That's just loving irresponsible, and without getting into how the messaging is undermined by being sent over the wishes of Ukraine's actual government.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:27
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Alchenar posted:It's as if if you assume that NATO is a nefarious selfish US hegemony project then it makes no sense at all to bring in the Baltic states, but if it is a defensive alliance of liberal democracies born out of the repeated experience of the 20th century that non-aligned democracies that do not take defence seriously find themselves prey to authoritarian neighbours then it makes a lot more sense. I mean, other than the loaded language, this seemed like a good-faith effort at trying to bridge the understanding gap. I do believe NATO to be an arm of U.S. (and by extension French and British at least) hegemony. That in no way excuses Putin's actions right now, though it certainly does help to inform why he's acting the way he is. More informative than "Putin lusts for Ukrainian blood."
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Feb 14, 2022 22:28
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Sanguinia posted:Let us assume that NATO is inviting nations bordering Russia into their alliance for this nefarious purpose of getting a securing a land border with them. Why should Russia be allowed to us military force and imperial subjugation to remove their sovereignty as a means to prevent this? Are you contending this recruitment effort is a prelude to an invasion of Russia and this is a pre-emptive strike? Because unless you are contending that I don't see how Russia has any right to stop any country who feels like it from joining NATO. Agreed and to add, unless the US and the rest of NATO were in 100% agreement that the Baltics were "Russian" land, there is absolutely no basis for saying that NATO added the Baltics to "spite" Russia. And even if the Baltics were added to piss off Russia, being pissed off isn't a basis for invading other sovereign countries. Russia is the rear end in a top hat in grade school who gets in a fight because a kid looked at them weird. It's not the west's problem or obligation to keep Russia from having hissy fits. NATO has never invaded Russia. Russia has invaded Ukrainian land twice in the past decade and has "invaded" other neighbors several times before that. Now maybe ethnic Russians in Ukraine want to be part of Russia. If that's the case, then Ukraine and Russia could have sat down and organized a plebiscite. Instead, what, Russia gets to invade "just cause?" Does Germany get to retake eastern prussia or galicia because of historic connections?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:29
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A map of verified OSINT of Russian movements: https://maphub.net/Cen4infoRes/russian-ukraine-monitor
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Feb 14, 2022 22:29
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TipTow posted:Where are the demands to see proof that adding the Baltics was all about peace, freedom, and democracy? I'd like to see that evidence. You can demand that evidence from people claiming that Baltics were admitted to NATO on altruistic, moral grounds. TipTow posted:And don't give me any bullshit about a "royal" you. Unless you believe all us Americans are a monolith or operate with some kind of hive mind. I think I was rather clearly talking to you in those posts.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:29
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That’s not his account, as far as I know. Last I checked him, he was only active on his VK page. Well gently caress, that makes a lot more sense then. Some of the older text posts on that account read as explicitly pro-invasion so I assumed it was him
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Feb 14, 2022 22:30
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You can demand that evidence from people claiming that Baltics were admitted to NATO on altruistic, moral grounds. So you believe I have the unilateral ability to kick out the Baltics?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:31
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Flavahbeast posted:Well gently caress, that makes a lot more sense then. Some of the older text posts on that account read as explicitly pro-invasion so I assumed it was him Oh, word? I could be wrong, I’m only ~80% confident here. If it’s not a chore for you to dig some of those up, I’d take a look. TipTow posted:So you believe I have the unilateral ability to kick out the Baltics? Of course I do, that’s how English language works.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:32
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Conspiratiorist posted:Again, there's a difference in trying to provide deterrence through being clear you believe in the possibility of hostile action as well as offering likely timetables for such, and another is consistently sending messaging implying the most likely course of action for Russia is a complete invasion with tens of thousands of casualties and destruction of Ukraine's major urban centers. what should the US messaging be if all accounts heavily suggest (and its allies confirm) that the most likely course of action for Russia is, in fact, a full-scale invasion that will kill tens of thousands? it's definitely a weird case (i can't think of any similar incident where there was this much public forewarning) but im not sure what a better tact would be QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:33
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Conspiratiorist posted:Again, there's a difference in trying to provide deterrence through being clear you believe in the possibility of hostile action as well as offering likely timetables for such, and another is consistently sending messaging implying the most likely course of action for Russia is a complete invasion with tens of thousands of casualties and destruction of Ukraine's major urban centers. Ahh yes going around saying "Russia wants to invade for lovely imperialistic reasons, has been building up troops for months and are actively looking for an excuse to do so" is the driving force behind Russian intentions to invade. Just like writing a letter saying "if I get killed it was *this person stating they want to murder me*" is clearly asking to be killed. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:33
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Private Speech posted:Ahh yes going around saying "Russia wants to invade for lovely imperialistic reasons, has been building up troops for months and are actively looking for an excuse to do so" is the driving force behind Russian intentions to invade. Russia is the kid stepping on the back of your shoes in the hallway and then waiting for you to get mad at him before they hit you so they can claim you started it.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:35
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TipTow posted:I mean, other than the loaded language, this seemed like a good-faith effort at trying to bridge the understanding gap. I do believe NATO to be an arm of U.S. (and by extension French and British at least) hegemony. That in no way excuses Putin's actions right now, though it certainly does help to inform why he's acting the way he is. More informative than "Putin lusts for Ukrainian blood." I think we are reaching consensus (approaching each other with loaded language) but if we accept NATO is an extension of hegemony of the Western Liberal Democratic market system then we come back to the fact that Putin isn't actually militarily threatened by NATO, it is that an arc of prosperous liberal democracies around Russia makes his oligarchic security state inherently less stable and at risk of popular revolution. And that is ultimately why Putin's actions now and general policy are bad and should be opposed - he can't reform Russia to be less poor so he needs to make the peoples around Russia also poor so they don't look good by comparison. It's not even a zero-sum worldview, it's a worldview where he needs to make the world a worse place in order to survive and that should probably be opposed. e: like there's a reason that every country that's had a free choice between being part of the Russian economic system and the European economic system has chosen the latter. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 22:36
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