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TipTow posted:I mean, other than the loaded language, this seemed like a good-faith effort at trying to bridge the understanding gap. I do believe NATO to be an arm of U.S. (and by extension French and British at least) hegemony. That in no way excuses Putin's actions right now, though it certainly does help to inform why he's acting the way he is. More informative than "Putin lusts for Ukrainian blood." I think we understand perfectly well why Russia is doing what it's doing. I don't see anyone here claiming it's because 'Putin lusts for Ukrainian blood". Anyone who says that is clearly a moron.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:36
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Private Speech posted:What's more they've been oppressing ethnic Russians far more heinously than Ukraine, what with denying them citizenship and forcibly assimilating them. Such a shame that the vile NATO allowed them to join, they could be part of the glorious mother Russia again by now. Do you mean the language test required for naturalization?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:37
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Owling Howl posted:Do you mean the language test required for naturalization? Yes, also there's no "autonomous republics" in the areas with Russian majority like in Ukraine, much less the those areas having a significant political say independent of the normal electoral process.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:38
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QuoProQuid posted:what should the US messaging be if all accounts heavily suggest (and its allies confirm) that the most likely course of action for Russia is, in fact, a full-scale invasion that will kill tens of thousands? That while the magnitude of force build up makes it a possibility, it'd be a very costly course of action for Russia (that is beyond pressure subsequently applied by ensuing sanctions etc), so most likely hostilities would be limited to Eastern Ukraine and avoid major urban fighting beyond perhaps Mariupol. But hey, what do I know? Maybe they really are planning a full scale invasion of Ukraine with a force concentration that'd struggle with just the East side of the Dnieper.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:40
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If you’re dissatisfied with our membership terms, ask more or kick us out. We’re doing everything that is being asked of us, and we were not shy to kill our citizens for your sake in Iraq and elsewhere. cinci zoo sniper posted:I think I was rather clearly talking to you in those posts. TipTow posted:So you believe I have the unilateral ability to kick out the Baltics? cinci zoo sniper posted:Of course I do, that’s how English language works.  By the way, get absolutely hosed at the insinuation that anybody died in Iraq for my sake.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:41
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Private Speech posted:Ahh yes going around saying "Russia wants to invade for lovely imperialistic reasons, has been building up troops for months and are actively looking for an excuse to do so" is the driving force behind Russian intentions to invade. the gently caress
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Feb 14, 2022 22:41
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Conspiratiorist posted:That while the magnitude of force build up makes it a possibility, it'd be a very costly course of action for Russia (that is beyond pressure subsequently applied by ensuing sanctions etc), so most likely hostilities would be limited to Eastern Ukraine and avoid major urban fighting beyond perhaps Mariupol. Armchair generalling: the forces west of the Dnieper and in Crimea just have to sit there and Ukraine has to deploy defensively to take them into account. Even if they do absolutely nothing their presence would make a push into the Donbass and eastern Ukraine easier.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:42
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Gripweed posted:Sure, but that was 80 years ago. We don't have a great track record since then. America didn't have a great track record at the time either, to be honest. And yet they did a good thing by ending the policy of non-intervention and intervening. It's fine to say that Putin is not Hitler and the situation in Ukraine doesn't warrant any involvement by US whatsoever, but you must have at least some sort of a red line in mind where supplying weapons to Ukraine would become justified.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:43
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Conspiratiorist posted:That while the magnitude of force build up makes it a possibility, it'd be a very costly course of action for Russia (that is beyond pressure subsequently applied by ensuing sanctions etc), so most likely hostilities would be limited to Eastern Ukraine and avoid major urban fighting beyond perhaps Mariupol. Isn't a solid chunk of the Russian army deployed on the Belarus border just ~100 miles north of Kiev? My guess is that they are keeping their options open with what (if anything) they decide to do; at the very least the force concentration so close to the capital puts pressure on the Ukrainian government.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:45
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Alchenar posted:Armchair generalling: the forces west of the Dnieper and in Crimea just have to sit there and Ukraine has to deploy defensively to take them into account. Even if they do absolutely nothing their presence would make a push into the Donbass and eastern Ukraine easier. Well, yes. For example the Russian forces in Belarus by their presence alone would keep a significant portion of Ukraine's military busy garrisoning Kyiv, even if they did nothing. But the Ukrainian military knows this. What I'm talking about is public discourse - it's about not telling people that Kyiv is most certainly about to get turned into rubble. Who's sowing that kind of panic helping?
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Feb 14, 2022 22:47
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Private Speech posted:What's more they've been oppressing ethnic Russians far more heinously than Ukraine, what with denying them citizenship and forcibly assimilating them. Such a shame that the vile NATO allowed them to join, they could be part of the glorious mother Russia again by now. Lithuania granted citizenship to almost everyone automatically. Latvia denied it only to members of the military and the political arms of the occupation government. Estonia I don’t know about quite as well, but I think their policies were similar to Latvian. While 90s and pre-EU naughts were genuinely dire, passing a checkbox exam of Latvian language and history assimilates you into becoming a Balt about as much as eating Taco Bell does make you a Mexican. There of course are serious problems, but this is a very dramatic post. If you are interested in discussing this with less snark and more accurate representation of facts, I’ll gladly take it in the main thread. We were kind of going in the direction of this conversation a fortnight or so ago, but Ukraine/Russia conflict chatter derailed that.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:52
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Lithuania granted citizenship to almost everyone automatically. Latvia denied it only to members of the military and the political arms of the occupation government. Estonia I don’t know about quite as well, but I think their policies were similar to Latvian. My point is more that Ukraine didn't do any of those things and on the contrary made significant accommodations, so if the treatment of Russian minority is a valid pretext to invade, then, well, clearly the Baltics deserve it far more.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:54
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Private Speech posted:Yes, also there's no "autonomous republics" in the areas with Russian majority like in Ukraine, much less the those areas having a significant political say independent of the normal electoral process. That’s barely 2 cities for Estonia and Latvia combined, which are regarded like that, and we’ve never had autonomous regions before even for our internal tribal divisions, because the countries are 2x4 hours by car without breaking any serious traffic rules.
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Feb 14, 2022 22:58
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Paladinus posted:America didn't have a great track record at the time either, to be honest. And yet they did a good thing by ending the policy of non-intervention and intervening. It's fine to say that Putin is not Hitler and the situation in Ukraine doesn't warrant any involvement by US whatsoever, but you must have at least some sort of a red line in mind where supplying weapons to Ukraine would become justified. Sure there are hypothetical situations where arming Ukraine would in my opinion be the right thing to do. But reality is nowhere near any of those situations.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:00
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Gripweed posted:Sure there are hypothetical situations where arming Ukraine would in my opinion be the right thing to do. But reality is nowhere near any of those situations. So what would hypothetically need to happen?
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Feb 14, 2022 23:01
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TipTow posted:
If someone tells me they lost a dad in Iraq I’ll let them know that it was for the lulz, since America didn’t request assistance. Now, you may argue that NATO and US are different things, but that would contradict your previous posts here. TipTow posted:I do believe NATO to be an arm of U.S. (and by extension French and British at least) hegemony.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:04
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Gripweed posted:Sure there are hypothetical situations where arming Ukraine would in my opinion be the right thing to do. But reality is nowhere near any of those situations. So do you believe that there's anything that can/should be done to stave off a war of aggression here, or is teleporting safely to the other end of the world the only way for Ukraine to go forward?
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Feb 14, 2022 23:09
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Private Speech posted:My point is more that Ukraine didn't do any of those things and on the contrary made significant accommodations, so if the treatment of Russian minority is a valid pretext to invade, then, well, clearly the Baltics deserve it far more. Ah, sure. As far as popular in some Russian political circles rhetoric goes, we do deserve it far worse than Ukraine does. But, alas, if you bomb Latvia you bomb up all those Russian oligarch neighbourhoods in the capital region. Private Speech posted:Isn't a solid chunk of the Russian army deployed on the Belarus border just ~100 miles north of Kiev? Correct, 200km or so from Kyiv by road.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:09
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Paladinus posted:So what would hypothetically need to happen? I guess if Ukraine was a bastion of socialist thought and LGBT rights, and their opponent was dedicated to destroying socialism and LGBT rights, then that would certainly change my thinking, because I'd support Ukraine over their opponent country on political and moral grounds. But there would still be other factors. Whether or not the weapons would actually change the situation, maybe the hypothetical good Ukraine is so good and the hypothetical bad Russia is so bad I would support US boots on the ground, if the countries are part of military alliances that could start WW3. I could create a hypothetical scenario where I would support pretty much anything, that's the fun of hypotheticals.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:11
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If someone tells me they lost a dad in Iraq I’ll let them know that it was for the lulz, since America didn’t request assistance. Now, you may argue that NATO and US are different things, but that would contradict your previous posts here. Latvia lost three lives in Iraq and four in Afghanistan, and that's a shame, but I don't think the US guarantees your country's security because of that tremendous contribution. It sucks that you got dragged into Iraq in particular, but probably the most valuable contribution in the eyes of the Bush Admin was getting to add 1 to the number of supporting countries.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:11
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If someone tells me they lost a dad in Iraq I’ll let them know that it was for the lulz, since America didn’t request assistance. Every country that agreed to send assistance is complicit in the atrocity that was the Iraq War, no one gets to act the victim there except Iraq mmkay posted:So do you believe that there's anything that can/should be done to stave off a war of aggression here, or is teleporting safely to the other end of the world the only way for Ukraine to go forward? I don't see what the US could do that doesn't have a good shot at just making the situation worse. Once again "we gotta do something!" has often led to absolutely horrific outcomes, I do not consider it good reasoning or politics.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:13
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If someone tells me they lost a dad in Iraq I’ll let them know that it was for the lulz, since America didn’t request assistance. Now, you may argue that NATO and US are different things, but that would contradict your previous posts here. That doesn't contradict my post at all. NATO isn't the only security alliance the U.S. is involved in.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:17
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Gripweed posted:Every country that agreed to send assistance is complicit in the atrocity that was the Iraq War, no one gets to act the victim there except Iraq Yes but this isn't the Iraq war is it? This isn't some false pretense. This is actually a foreign power threatening to invade a country for no real legitimate reason.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:18
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If the US wants to do "something, anything" they should offer full citizenship to displaced Ukrainian victims of Russian imperialist aggression.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:19
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Gripweed posted:I guess if Ukraine was a bastion of socialist thought and LGBT rights, and their opponent was dedicated to destroying socialism and LGBT rights, then that would certainly change my thinking, because I'd support Ukraine over their opponent country on political and moral grounds. I see. That's a very interesting position.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:19
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Gripweed posted:Every country that agreed to send assistance is complicit in the atrocity that was the Iraq War, no one gets to act the victim there except Iraq I don’t consider Latvia to be victim of Iraqi aggression - that is not a precondition for us to recognise American request for aid. Sinteres posted:Latvia lost three lives in Iraq and four in Afghanistan, and that's a shame, but I don't think the US guarantees your country's security because of that tremendous contribution. It sucks that you got dragged into Iraq in particular, but probably the most valuable contribution in the eyes of the Bush Admin was getting to add 1 to the number of supporting countries. For someone supposedly respectful of the deceased, this does lean heavily into mocking Latvia for fulfilling conditions America set out for our NATO membership. Either way, time to wrap up the chat about Latvian membership in NATO. This is Ukraine-Russia war thread, not NATO in Europe thread. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 23:22
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Either way, time to wrap up the chat about Latvian membership in NATO. This is Ukraine-Russia war thread, not NATO in Europe thread. gently caress you, you're not the idiot king of this thread. This is how you've dealt with people disagreeing with you for weeks, you try to compartmentalize their argument into something technically verboten ("Americaposting," etc.) and you don't get to do that here. Discussion of NATO is absolutely relevant to this topic. You managed to chase out all the Americans posting wrongthink in the (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2022 23:27
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CommieGIR posted:Yes but this isn't the Iraq war is it? This isn't some false pretense. This is actually a foreign power threatening to invade a country for no real legitimate reason. Sure, but America has done a lot of bad stuff other than the Iraq War. We have done something about the human rights abuses in Libya, that did not end well. We did something about Syria, that didn't go how we wanted either. We've been doing something about Cuba and North Korea for decades, those countries doggedly refused to stop existing, and all us doing something resulted in was denying medicine and food to the people of those countries. I just don't see how you can look at the history of American foreign policy over the past 75 years and come to any conclusion other than it's bad. We should stop doing stuff.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:27
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Conspiratiorist posted:That while the magnitude of force build up makes it a possibility, it'd be a very costly course of action for Russia (that is beyond pressure subsequently applied by ensuing sanctions etc), so most likely hostilities would be limited to Eastern Ukraine and avoid major urban fighting beyond perhaps Mariupol. That's really what it all comes down to: there's no scenario in which Russia invades without accruing costs that make such an invasion not at all worthwhile. There is nothing that Russia can hope to gain from trying to annex regions of Ukraine that do not overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia. Even with over half of its military might committed, it would be a long, costly, bloody slog, followed by an extremely drawn-out, miserable, economically ruinous occupation and reconstruction. During all that, Russia would face so many sanctions from all sides that it would be effectively under a worldwide embargo. They may even run the risk of upending their recent natural gas deal with China. An already-suffering economy under those circumstances usually can't keep up a campaign of conquest in a large country like Ukraine for very long. Putin knows this, his tame oligarchs know this, and his war planners know this. There is little that's worthwhile to be gained by invading, whereas they can achieve a lot of their objectives by just continuing to do what they've been doing for the past seven years, ie: conduct military exercises on the border with Ukraine, rattle the saber a bunch, demand that NATO and the EU back off, go home, then come back the next year and do the same thing again. Ultimately, Russia and the U.S. want a lot of the same things out of this: 1, they want Ukraine to stay out of each others' sphere of influence. 2, they want their own elected officials to benefit domestically from their handling of the situation. And 3, they want their own empire to still look like it can still credibly project force after an embarrassing few decades. It reminds me of what Borges famously said about the UK and Argentina during the Falklands War: it's "two bald men fighting over a comb." That's why I don't think there's going to be an invasion or a broader war over this anytime soon. Both sides are going to shake their fists at each other a bit more, then they'll go home, say that the other side backed down first, and declare victory to loud fanfare. e: and then come back next year and do the same thing, of course.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:30
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Gripweed posted:Sure, but America has done a lot of bad stuff other than the Iraq War. We have done something about the human rights abuses in Libya, that did not end well. We did something about Syria, that didn't go how we wanted either. We've been doing something about Cuba and North Korea for decades, those countries doggedly refused to stop existing, and all us doing something resulted in was denying medicine and food to the people of those countries. American foreign policy is bad an evil. Russia invading Ukraine is also bad and evil.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:31
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Gripweed posted:Sure, but America has done a lot of bad stuff other than the Iraq War. We have done something about the human rights abuses in Libya, that did not end well. We did something about Syria, that didn't go how we wanted either. We've been doing something about Cuba and North Korea for decades, those countries doggedly refused to stop existing, and all us doing something resulted in was denying medicine and food to the people of those countries. America being involved does not equal "wrong." Countries can be flawed and lovely and still be in the right. This is dogmatic lunacy. Ukraine is a sovereign state. They want to defend themselves, they are accepting arms for many countries, including the United States. Just like Iraq was free to defend itself from the United States, Ukraine is allowed to defend itself against Russia. If they want to accept arms from the United States, they are allowed to. Russia is starting an international crisis and then acting affronted when people react accordingly. They are the bully who gets mad when their target sticks up for themselves. America has been in the wrong dozens of times in the past few administrations. Sending arms to a country asking for them is not one of those times. Basically: Solaris 2.0 posted:American foreign policy is bad an evil. Russia invading Ukraine is also bad and evil.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:32
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I don’t consider Latvia to be victim of Iraqi aggression - that is not a precondition for us to recognise American request for aid. How is this not a parting shot?
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Feb 14, 2022 23:33
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Sinteres posted:How is this not a parting shot? Because nothing prevents you from continuing the topic of Latvian membership of NATO in EEPol, which is the more appropriate thread for it. I'm more than happy to continue the discussion there, with the small request of clearly restating the argument or position you'd like to discuss with me or anyone else. This thread is to discuss Ukraine-Russia war. Prospects of NATO membership for Ukraine are relevant to it, and so is Russian perception of and history with NATO. Latvian membership of NATO from the U.S. perspective could be reasonably seen as an off-topic discussion point.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:38
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Because nothing prevents you from continuing the topic of Latvian membership of NATO in EEPol, which is the more appropriate thread for it. I'm more than happy to continue the discussion there, with the small request of clearly restating the argument or position you'd like to discuss with me or anyone else. And yet you chose to get the last word in right there before deciding the topic doesn't belong. On that note, does it really make sense for cinci to be IK for both this thread and the other thread? The OP of this thread sure reads like it's a containment thread for dissenting views they find distasteful, and I don't see the point of having two threads if they're going to be moderated the same.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:39
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Paladinus posted:I see. That's a very interesting position. I realise I should probably disclose my own position. I think America's military aid is justified in principle in accordance with the Budapest Memorandum. It beats giving nuclear weapons back to Ukraine anyway.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:40
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Solaris 2.0 posted:American foreign policy is bad an evil. Russia invading Ukraine is also bad and evil. Sure. But so what? We've given Ukraine the weapons, but we still say Russia is going to invade. SO great, we dumped a bunch of weapons onto the world and didn't even stop the other bad thing. Pook Good Mook posted:America being involved does not equal "wrong." Countries can be flawed and lovely and still be in the right. This is dogmatic lunacy. Ukraine can only "accept" those arms because America is offering them! Which is not a neutral act! You say that sending arms to a country asking for them is not wrong. Is that just in this specific case, or do you believe America was not wrong to send weapons when Indonesia asked in the 1960s?
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Feb 14, 2022 23:43
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Gripweed posted:Sure. But so what? We've given Ukraine the weapons, but we still say Russia is going to invade. SO great, we dumped a bunch of weapons onto the world and didn't even stop the other bad thing. Again, this seems really weird to blame a country under threat of invasion for accepting aid they asked for. I'd be like blaming the Iraqis for the American invasion.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:47
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Gripweed posted:Sure. But so what? We've given Ukraine the weapons, but we still say Russia is going to invade. SO great, we dumped a bunch of weapons onto the world and didn't even stop the other bad thing. Ya that was bad. That was also 60 years ago and entirely different. Indonesia wasn't getting invaded by Malaysia or some other neighboring country. I think everyone would admit that America sending arms isn't some noble altruistic thing and that America has an interest in containing Russia. But that is not mutually exclusive with the idea that Ukraine is the "innocent" party when it comes to Russian aggression in this particular instance. Ukraine is allowed to defend themselves and are taking any help they can get from other countries offering to send it.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:49
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Sinteres posted:And yet you chose to get the last word in right there before deciding the topic doesn't belong. As I've clarified already, everyone is invited to continue that conversation in the other thread. I don't view them separately myself, merely as a helpful way for posters to find the conversations they're interested in.
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Feb 14, 2022 23:49
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I don't view them separately myself That gets to my other concern. If the threads are going to be functionally identical, it would be nice if that would be made clear from the top so some of us know not to bother posting in it after the skew of the last one. Like I genuinely thought part of the point of this thread was to have somewhere people could be more free to express opinions that might offend the sensibilities of regular EE posters without tracking mud on their carpet. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 23:52
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