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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
It depends on the target, something like a cazador doesn't have any DT to start with so that -DT effect wouldn't matter. DT doesn't go below 0 so in your example if something has 8DT or less then the 5mm and 5.56 guns would do the same damage. According to the wiki damage resistance is applied first, so the formula would go like: weapon damage minus DR% minus DT

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Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

Also in the base game there's a maximum reduction of 80%, though this can be modded.

That maximum reduction means the 5mm will always do at minimum 3.6 damage per hit, which is why it can still chew through heavy armor thanks to its RoF.

Taerkar fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jan 26, 2022

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO
Saw this mod that replaces the spacesuits with preetty good Mercury astronaut ones. Didn't think I would ever use it so I didnt bother downloading.
Now, I think Veronica would look good as a mercury astronaut and I want to try and make the helmet work on the vulpine race head slot. But now it's gone without a trace.

Lesson: always download a mod that catches your interest.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP9ml3_A5Tc

So another Frontier?

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

An opportunity to be deeply and personally offended!

WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010


But will it have horny lizard people?

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
All these mod trailers really do nothing to tell me what the mod will be like. Even the Fallout 4 New Vegas mod trailer, fun as it is, just looks like Fallout 4 gameplay with a California tint. All these mod trailers are just panning shots, half asded voice-over and the same old same old of jank.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.
This just reinvigorates my motivation for a goon fallout mod.

Light Gun Man
Oct 17, 2009

toEjaM iS oN
vaCatioN




Lipstick Apathy

Discendo Vox posted:

This just reinvigorates my motivation for a goon fallout mod.

new vegas already is a goon fallout mod, in a sense

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

Nah, unlike goon mods New Vegas was finished.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

Taerkar posted:

Nah, unlike goon mods New Vegas was finished.

that’s arguable

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Arc Hammer posted:

All these mod trailers really do nothing to tell me what the mod will be like. Even the Fallout 4 New Vegas mod trailer, fun as it is, just looks like Fallout 4 gameplay with a California tint. All these mod trailers are just panning shots, half asded voice-over and the same old same old of jank.

I mean, I'm pretty sure the Fallout 4 New Vegas is just an attempt to recreate the story content of New Vegas in the Fallout 4 engine. If it ever comes out (and that's a big if) at least the first version of it will probably not fundamentally change the gameplay from Fallout 4.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.
I'm playing Tale of Two Wastelands with the conventional Fallout 3 start, and I've done a bit of fruitless searching but am not finding what I'm looking for, which would be a mod that adds more New Vegas-style cooking to the Capitol Wasteland. Does this exist, or do I just need to make do with the shockingly abundant Stimpacks until I get to the Mojave?

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

Pope Guilty posted:

I'm playing Tale of Two Wastelands with the conventional Fallout 3 start, and I've done a bit of fruitless searching but am not finding what I'm looking for, which would be a mod that adds more New Vegas-style cooking to the Capitol Wasteland. Does this exist, or do I just need to make do with the shockingly abundant Stimpacks until I get to the Mojave?

Doesn't Tale of Two Wastelands already do that? It combines both but uses the New Vegas engine, including the crafting, so you should be able to cook with New Vegas recipes just fine. Finding a cooking station might be harder, though I want to say TTW makes something (hot plates or campfires or something) work as cooking stations for that reason.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Bremen posted:

Doesn't Tale of Two Wastelands already do that? It combines both but uses the New Vegas engine, including the crafting, so you should be able to cook with New Vegas recipes just fine. Finding a cooking station might be harder, though I want to say TTW makes something (hot plates or campfires or something) work as cooking stations for that reason.

I haven't played it, but I imagine most ingredients are pretty rare too.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.
Yeah, New Vegas cooking generally involves Mojave-specific ingredients and I think dog and brahmin are the only things you can make steak from which are present in the Capital Wasteland (and you should really be saving brahmin steaks for making Desert Salad).

Oh, looking at the campfire recipe list on the wiki, you could make Caravan Lunch (lunchbox, Cram, InstaMash, Pork'n'Beans), but that looks to be it.

Hobo on Fire
Dec 4, 2008

Doesn't TTW add a bunch of recipes using bugs and stuff? I seem to remember "Bloatfly Smoothies" being a thing. :barf:

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

Hobo on Fire posted:

Doesn't TTW add a bunch of recipes using bugs and stuff? I seem to remember "Bloatfly Smoothies" being a thing. :barf:

I found one of those but haven't played 3 in a long time and figured it was just a regular 3 item. I'll check the next cooking item I find.

LashLightning
Feb 20, 2010

You know you didn't have to go post that, right?
But it's fine, I guess...

You just keep being you!

Pope Guilty posted:

Oh, looking at the campfire recipe list on the wiki, you could make Caravan Lunch (lunchbox, Cram, InstaMash, Pork'n'Beans), but that looks to be it.

On the plus side, those items are much more common in the Capital Wasteland than in the Mojave, if I remember correctly.

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant
Does launching through Mod Organizer have any effect on whether you can get Steam achievements? I've had most of the rest for years now, but my current Courier has an excellent Luck stat, so I'm wondering if I could get that one about getting kicked out of all the casinos.

Raygereio
Nov 12, 2012

StandardVC10 posted:

Does launching through Mod Organizer have any effect on whether you can get Steam achievements? I've had most of the rest for years now, but my current Courier has an excellent Luck stat, so I'm wondering if I could get that one about getting kicked out of all the casinos.
Achievements should work fine. If I recall right, only opening the console & entering a command will block achievements until you restart the game.

ThaumPenguin
Oct 9, 2013

StandardVC10 posted:

Does launching through Mod Organizer have any effect on whether you can get Steam achievements? I've had most of the rest for years now, but my current Courier has an excellent Luck stat, so I'm wondering if I could get that one about getting kicked out of all the casinos.

If you've got JIP LN NVSE Plugin installed, achievements should work just fine, even while using mods and/or console commands. It's a required plugin for a lot of mods, so chances are you've already got it.

I don't recall mod organizer causing achievement problems by itself, you should be good.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES

I think script extender or 4gb patch or maybe even mods themselves disables achievements, but yeah there are a few mods that turn them back on.

I don’t remember what specifically disables them, I just remember it’s something that basically any modded build will have.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

rope kid, if you're around and feel like discussing NV which your bloggy thing says you don't: You reintroduced DT in your devcut where it's not in the main game in a significant way.

Was that because DT is a more complex mechanic more likely to be appreciated by a subset of your audience, the "hardcore", or an evolution in your thinking from lessons learned?

Asking because you see a number of games that feed directly into the power fantasy aspect of gaming as opposed to that lovely parallel staircase metaphor you used where you get challenged, master, get challenged again continuously. But I'm asking whether you think game studios are better off focusing on the former - attaining and retaining godhood - for the majority of the player base.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.
I'm confused, isn't DT the main armor mechanic in FO3? That's always an issue with TTW- the TTW Super Mutants always seemed to me to be way tougher at low levels than in vanilla FO3 and I always thought it was because TTW was converting them from FO3's use of DR to New Vegas's more prevalent use of DT without lowering the values to preserve the challenge at the same level.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

I thought FO3 was primarily DR, but don't remember very well to be honest.

I may have just muddied the waters by mentioning DT/DR/jsawyer. My question was because Witcher 3 and now Cyberpunk feel like games explicitly designed to give the player that power fantasy.

For example, both games do relative level based scaling where enemies get secondary, but very powerful scaling factors if they are -6, -3, +3 or +6 levels away from you - so you can stomp them if they are lower level, but get crushed if they are much higher level.

In practice, as you gain levels most of the world goes from getting big buffs against you to get severe maluses over and beyond those already imposed from you being much higher level. So they turn you in a walking god on purpose.

jsawyer.esp on the other hand made my recent run of FNV a very well balanced and challenging adventure in a way I don't recall release FNV quite being.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
How modular is jsawyer (or I guess JSUE) anyway? I’ve heard it recommended even for first time players (farthest I’ve been is Novac) and that makes sense since it’s gameplay mod changes by the literal game designer, but I’m not hot on the lowered level cap and carry weight in particular.

Inexplicable Humblebrag
Sep 20, 2003

really rather customisable by .INI.

reduced carry weight for sure is something you can toggle off. i think i did mine recently on starting Old World Blues and getting a crazy new spine

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

At this point I don't play Bethsoft-style games unless I've more or less modded out at least some of the inventory considerations; for FNV I just mod out miscellaneous item weight. Still enough carry limit to affect loadout choices but not so onerous as to necessitate hauling trips to vendors. And it's been said before but JSUE is a cavalier appropriation of the JSawyer name and uses the original mod as a distant starting point. Play with JSawyer first before you decide to pour on whatever JSUE's author thinks makes for a good game.

As for level cap, there isn't one unless you choose Logan's Loophole as a trait. Which you should.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Basic Chunnel posted:

At this point I don't play Bethsoft-style games unless I've more or less modded out at least some of the inventory considerations; for FNV I just mod out miscellaneous item weight. Still enough carry limit to affect loadout choices but not so onerous as to necessitate hauling trips to vendors. And it's been said before but JSUE is a cavalier appropriation of the JSawyer name and uses the original mod as a distant starting point. Play with JSawyer first before you decide to pour on whatever JSUE's author thinks makes for a good game.

As for level cap, there isn't one unless you choose Logan's Loophole as a trait. Which you should.

Huh? The change notes to jesawyer mention a level cap of 30.

And I mentioned JSUE because most of the thread seems to use that/suggest Viva Las Vegas for new players, which also uses that. And I frankly don’t care about Josh Sawyer’s feelings for personal reasons.

From watching a bunch of YouTube survival New Vegas/Fallout 4 the needs management is compelling but yeah 50 pound limit feels very painful for a basic load out.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

I'd play with jsawyer even for a first run. Whether you use JSUE comes down to compatibility with other mods really. So if you're doing a pretty straightforward vanilla++ first run, use it as is. But if you want a bunch of other mods that have moved to use JSUE as the mod to be compatible with, you're going to have to put in some work yourself to make that work.

It's very unfortunate the JSUE author took the path they did. It would have been better to made a mod that used jsawyer.esp as a dependency and layered compatibility/functionality over it - and used a very different name too.

The reduction of the level cap to 30 is not as painful as it may seem at first blush. You can fit in everything you really need perk-wise by then and even have a few perk slots to spare. It's a good choice.

E: The 50lb limit makes some perks relevant and modulates choice of weapon and ammo too. We're talking mods here so of course jettison all that if it seems burdensome haha, but I liked those changes personally and adjusted for it in my build.

jsawyer and Ghost Mode are probably my favorite overhaul mods and both do good things with inventory limitations.

v1ld fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Feb 19, 2022

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

Against All Tyrants

Ultra Carp

Pope Guilty posted:

I'm confused, isn't DT the main armor mechanic in FO3? That's always an issue with TTW- the TTW Super Mutants always seemed to me to be way tougher at low levels than in vanilla FO3 and I always thought it was because TTW was converting them from FO3's use of DR to New Vegas's more prevalent use of DT without lowering the values to preserve the challenge at the same level.

DR, or Damage Resistance, is the main armor system in Fallout 3. It's a very straightforward system — it reduces damage by a percentage amount, maxing out at 85%. While simple, it had an issue with scaling, as in essence it functions less like actual armor and more like additional health. This also means that the best weapons are flat-out the ones with the most DPS to chew through those massive health bars.

DT, or Damage Threshold, is the system used in Fallout: New Vegas. In this system, similar to the system used in the original Fallout games, incoming damage of each individual attack is flat-out reduced by the enemy's DT, to a minimum of 20% of the original damage. In effect, this gives different weapons different niches — weapons that have low DPS but high DAM per shot will be much more successful against enemies with high DT, whereas enemies with little-to-no armor will be torn to shreds by high DPS weapons. Though less straightforward, it's a much better system, since it gives weapons different niches and also plays into the ammo crafting subsystem (Since different kinds of bullets will have different effects on damage and enemy armor — hollow points, for instance, do more damage but also give a multiplier to enemy DT, thus making them strictly worse against targets with armor).

DR does still exist in New Vegas in the base game, but it's very rare — only a handful of items like the Rebreather have it. It's also very powerful, since it reduces incoming damage before it's reduced by DT, making it more difficult to go through armor. jsawyer adds DR to a bunch of different armors, most likely to make them tougher and more resilient against high DAM weapons and armor piercing rounds that would otherwise nullify them entirely. To quote from Sawyer's Tumblr:

quote:

glopforshort asked:: The armor formula in NV was pretty sophisticated and non-obvious. What were the goals for it and why use the formula you did, as opposed to others?

I don’t think it was particularly sophisticated, and it does have an in-game pop-up where you can read (ignore) the fine details of how it’s operating.

I had a few goals.

* Allow “infinite” scalability (which %-based DR logically cannot).
* Prevent total damage negation (which is where the 20% Min damage comes from).
* Allow small caliber, high RoF firearms to be easily contrasted with large caliber, low RoF firearms by their viability against different levels of DT.
* Fairly easy to understand that higher number = more protection in a linear fashion.

The system is pretty straightforward: DT is subtracted directly from each “tick” of incoming damage, but damage can never be reduced below 20% of its initial value.

It was pretty easy to mock up in an Excel spreadsheet to see how different damage values interacted with different DT values in individual instances. Those instances could then be multiplied over a RoF to indicate “true” DPS assuming 100% accuracy without crits.

To be clear, the spreadsheets were only a starting point and a tuning aid. They were never a replacement for actually playing the game and seeing the impact that changing weapon / armor stats had in play. In fact, I went back to look at my working Excel sheets and I had not updated them since early March of 2010 (7 months prior to shipping the game). Once we were in full production, all tuning was done in editor/engine, not in a spreadsheet.



The places where the DT system failed to hold up were the places where pure DT systems typically fail: extremely low value, high RoF damage applications (where DT almost immediately reduces damage to the minimum threshold) and huge burst damage (e.g. from a mini nuke).

To address the latter concern, I re-introduced low DR values to armor in my jsawyer patch. In cases where a character is hit by something for 100 points of damage (e.g.) and they’re wearing 12 DT armor with 15% DR, the DR provides a more sizable amount of reduction.

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

I got it completely backwards, of course. Fallout No Memory more like.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

v1ld posted:

I'd play with jsawyer even for a first run. Whether you use JSUE comes down to compatibility with other mods really. So if you're doing a pretty straightforward vanilla++ first run, use it as is. But if you want a bunch of other mods that have moved to use JSUE as the mod to be compatible with, you're going to have to put in some work yourself to make that work.

It's very unfortunate the JSUE author took the path they did. It would have been better to made a mod that used jsawyer.esp as a dependency and layered compatibility/functionality over it - and used a very different name too.

The reduction of the level cap to 30 is not as painful as it may seem at first blush. You can fit in everything you really need perk-wise by then and even have a few perk slots to spare. It's a good choice.

E: The 50lb limit makes some perks relevant and modulates choice of weapon and ammo too. We're talking mods here so of course jettison all that if it seems burdensome haha, but I liked those changes personally and adjusted for it in my build.

jsawyer and Ghost Mode are probably my favorite overhaul mods and both do good things with inventory limitations.

30 levels is likely enough for a good build, yes. I don’t mind making choices, I’m just a completionist who hates hitting the level cap and XP being wasted. Speaking of, how effective are small guns in New Vegas? When I played Fallout 3 GOTY unmodded everything felt like it was leading to power armor and giant guns and I hated it. I like my hunting rifles.

Aren’t there some things JSUE fixes that jsawyer itself didn’t or couldn’t? Like the separate GRA and regular weapons, I remember someone in here mentioning.

ThaumPenguin
Oct 9, 2013

v1ld posted:

It's very unfortunate the JSUE author took the path they did. It would have been better to made a mod that used jsawyer.esp as a dependency and layered compatibility/functionality over it - and used a very different name too.

While it's true that JSUE should've taken a different path (for example going with a unique name and a JSawyer attribution), simply making JSUE a dependency of the original mod would negate most of the benefits. A significant part of the mod would simply have to involve undoing JSawyer.esp's hard edits and returning them to a vanilla state (and then adding them back in-game via SKSE scripting), as otherwise you'd have the same compatibility troubles as just using the original mod. It would be an inherently messy implementation.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Arivia posted:

30 levels is likely enough for a good build, yes. I don’t mind making choices, I’m just a completionist who hates hitting the level cap and XP being wasted. Speaking of, how effective are small guns in New Vegas? When I played Fallout 3 GOTY unmodded everything felt like it was leading to power armor and giant guns and I hated it. I like my hunting rifles.

Aren’t there some things JSUE fixes that jsawyer itself didn’t or couldn’t? Like the separate GRA and regular weapons, I remember someone in here mentioning.

Small guns work pretty well if you take the right perks. If you're super worried about it this is a pretty good mod that gives you some more oomph without feeling super overpowered.

https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/43557

v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

ThaumPenguin posted:

While it's true that JSUE should've taken a different path (for example going with a unique name and a JSawyer attribution), simply making JSUE a dependency of the original mod would negate most of the benefits. A significant part of the mod would simply have to involve undoing JSawyer.esp's hard edits and returning them to a vanilla state (and then adding them back in-game via SKSE scripting), as otherwise you'd have the same compatibility troubles as just using the original mod. It would be an inherently messy implementation.

Yeah, good point and really the root of it, isn't it? Newer mods do their work through scripts and not through esp/esm overrides.

moot the hopple
Apr 26, 2008

dyslexic Bowie clone

Arivia posted:

30 levels is likely enough for a good build, yes. I don’t mind making choices, I’m just a completionist who hates hitting the level cap and XP being wasted. Speaking of, how effective are small guns in New Vegas? When I played Fallout 3 GOTY unmodded everything felt like it was leading to power armor and giant guns and I hated it. I like my hunting rifles.

Aren’t there some things JSUE fixes that jsawyer itself didn’t or couldn’t? Like the separate GRA and regular weapons, I remember someone in here mentioning.

I think you would really like just the jsawyer base mod in this case. The changed level cap is actually level 34 (with the Lonesome Road level 50 perks such as "Just Lucky I'm Alive" being adjusted to level 34). Like you, I was initially bummed out about not having the extra perks that you'd get with a level 50 cap, but I've played several playthroughs with jsawyer now and felt like I was able to get everything I needed to define my build. Jswayer also adjusts the experience gain so everything progresses evenly. I'm also a completionist and I like having my progression time out as close to the end game as possible (you'll still hit the level cap before the end of the game if you plan on doing everything, but not as quickly and early as the base game).

Another good consequence of the lowered level cap is that enemies also don't have as much bloated HP due to level scaling. This was a huge problem in the DLC's particular. In the unmodded game, I remember being very frustrated in Old World Blues, having brought in my carry limit of ammunition and exhausting both that supply and all the ammo I could buy from The Sink on just a few enemies at the start because the enemies were sheer bullet sponges. I ended up having to make use of melee weapons and energy weapons that my build wasn't specced out for just to make it through. With jsawyer modded game, I went through it with Paciencia and Lucky and didn't struggle for lack of damage or ammo. So small guns remain perfectly viable if that's another one of your concerns.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

moot the hopple posted:

I think you would really like just the jsawyer base mod in this case. The changed level cap is actually level 34 (with the Lonesome Road level 50 perks such as "Just Lucky I'm Alive" being adjusted to level 34). Like you, I was initially bummed out about not having the extra perks that you'd get with a level 50 cap, but I've played several playthroughs with jsawyer now and felt like I was able to get everything I needed to define my build. Jswayer also adjusts the experience gain so everything progresses evenly. I'm also a completionist and I like having my progression time out as close to the end game as possible (you'll still hit the level cap before the end of the game if you plan on doing everything, but not as quickly and early as the base game).

Another good consequence of the lowered level cap is that enemies also don't have as much bloated HP due to level scaling. This was a huge problem in the DLC's particular. In the unmodded game, I remember being very frustrated in Old World Blues, having brought in my carry limit of ammunition and exhausting both that supply and all the ammo I could buy from The Sink on just a few enemies at the start because the enemies were sheer bullet sponges. I ended up having to make use of melee weapons and energy weapons that my build wasn't specced out for just to make it through. With jsawyer modded game, I went through it with Paciencia and Lucky and didn't struggle for lack of damage or ammo. So small guns remain perfectly viable if that's another one of your concerns.

That sounds pretty great yeah. If the lowered level cap in jsawyer keeps combat snappy instead of a drag (god broken steel), then I’ll go with that. One last question: SPECIAL builds in New Vegas seem extremely messed up, like everyone puts Charisma at 1 even though speech checks are super important. I guess it’s bugged or something? Is that fixed with jsawyer/JSUE/other recent mods or does everyone just lean into it?

Actually while I’m at it, any suggestions for player house mods? I remember there being some bunker mod that everyone used to like and was hell to get to in the NW. Does the unmodded game provide one like Skyrim or Fallout 3 do?

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v1ld
Apr 16, 2012

Charisma in NV doesn't do much unless you really want to lean into a run where your companions are the major source of damage. Edit: I guess? Have no clue if that's a possible thing. But at least you get some damage for them by bumping CHA.

code:
Charisma-based perks
Perk 	Requirement 	Level 	Additional Requirements
Ferocious Loyalty 	6 	6 	—
Animal Friend 	6 	10 	Survival 45

Level names and statistics
Value 	Name 	Companion Armor & Damage 	Skill Modifiers
1 	Misanthrope 	+5% 	Barter/Speech +2
2 	Old Hermit 	+10% 	Barter/Speech +4
3 	Creepy Undertaker 	+15% 	Barter/Speech +6
4 	Peevish Librarian 	+20% 	Barter/Speech +8
5 	Substitute Teacher 	+25% 	Barter/Speech +10
6 	Cheery Salesman 	+30% 	Barter/Speech +12
7 	Diplomat 	+35% 	Barter/Speech +14
8 	Movie Star 	+40% 	Barter/Speech +16
9 	Casanova 	+45% 	Barter/Speech +18
10 	Cult Leader 	+50% 	Barter/Speech +20 

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