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spatula posted:The post above suggests that I should have just said "I have multiple competitive offers" which is lying lol. What is lying about it? You clearly had multiple offers, so I'm guessing it is the word 'competitive'? I have a few rhetorical questions and points to make about several threads that appear in your posts here. First and foremost this thread is about changing mindsets, which is not always easy. Don't take it too personally when someone says "you clearly hosed up". There are several companies competing to win your employment. Those companies have furnished offers that are competing for your signature. This final company is competing with the others and your current job. That said, some job postings will say "competitive salary" which implies some relation to market rates, but that relation is not some 'truth' with a verifiable meaning. Do they mean median? Average? How do they know your skill level? The only 'truth' is the numbers on the offer sheet that would convince you to sign. You gave them a lot of information, but did you give them documents? Why should they believe any of the numbers you gave them? In this case they may believe you, because you told them that their offer is similar to your current job and the other offers, but do you think they would have believed you if you said all the offers were for $250k cash money + others (assume it was true for this example)? Go back through the thread, there is an example a couple pages ago of a company demanding to see the other offer or current pay check. If you were on a car lot and the sales person said "I'd love to sell you this car at $35k but someone is driving in tomorrow to buy it at $45k", would you believe them? If I remember your previous posts, you got two offers you didn't like and you tried to convince the third company to increase their offer by telling them a bunch of numbers. It doesn't look like that is going to get what you want. If they don't provide compensation or opportunity your interested in, walk away. You're in a hot market with a hot skill set, the next offer will come along. Just send a simple email like "Thanks, I'll sign today for $220k/stuff/more stuff." Also, don't get caught up in what other people make or do. Don't take this personally either. Compensation is a combination of a whole bunch of 'market factors' and other bullshit, it is not a score.
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Feb 12, 2022 17:25
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Zarin posted:I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't think "I have multiple competitive offers" is a lie in the slightest. Spikes32 posted:My take is boss knows how competitive the job market is, knows his group is underpaid compared to the bay area market and was given the go ahead by his vp to try and retain people by upping salaries, and is using the 'its an EU practice I'm bringing over' as a cover to mask his actual worry / intention and not lose bargening power. Spikes32 posted:He's got a science BS, but humanities PhD so feels like his Banta sucks, plus really likes his job. And he 'doesn't want his boss to think he's going to leave'.
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Feb 12, 2022 19:41
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tbh it sounds like OP's partner is just extremely conflict averse and risk averse and might be coached into asking for a 20% raise but it'll be transparent that he'll fold under any pressure at all. It's just the way some people are wired, and unless he's really super committed to changing this about himself he'll probably be happier just sitting in his nice comfortable rut where he's paid whatever his employer deigns to pay him. The more dangerous thing to this kind of person isn't that they earn far less than they could have, it's that they tend to drink the corporate flavorade about Loyalty and We're A Family and all that bullshit and can get really blindsided when the company abruptly fires them so that an executive can buy a new boat cover with the savings. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 20:15
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Even if the boss sees through this person, asking for 20% will probably get 5% - 10% while asking for 3% will get 2% - 3% so they're almost certainly better off asking for a higher percentage. Part of the game here is to ask for at least the amount that the company has set aside for raises and that amount is likely higher than 3%, I would guess in the range of 5% - 10%.
asur fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 20:51
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Arquinsiel posted:0 is a multiple of any number, as long as you multiply it by 0. Hahaha, I legit cannot tell if you are - agreeing with me - disagreeing with me - calling me an idiot - some combination of the above and I am extremely amused, so thank you for that  I am curious what you mean though! If I said something dumb/gave bad advice, I should probably know about it.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:58
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Not trying to rag on you, just trying to givesome clear feedback. If your goal was to break $200k, you messed this up really solidly. You do not need to justify to anyone your compensation expectations. You should only disclose information in a negotiation if you think it will help you reach your objective. You do not owe the other party candor and giving it will usually harm you. If you want to make $220k in cash comp, then you can always go first and name $230k and make them negotiate you down. The point is: figure out what you want and ask for a bit more. It doesn’t matter what you make now or what alternatives you have, all that matters is if they are willing and able to offer you what you want.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:16
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Zarin posted:Hahaha, I legit cannot tell if you are
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Feb 12, 2022 21:19
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Arquinsiel posted:I'm giving an extremely niche but technically correct way of claiming you've got "multiple competing offers" even if you're unemployed. It's not a lie, but it's easy to misinterpret if an employer were to hear it. Agreeing with you ad-absurdum, if you like. Haha alright. That was kinda my thought, but I couldn't be sure! Kinda like how on the first page (or maybe it's in the OP) some random Goon says "Please do not share your current salary. Now, anytime someone asks, you can truthfully say that you have been asked not to disclose that."
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Feb 12, 2022 21:28
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In situ negotiation person: Can your partner literally ask "what is the highest number you can give?". They can laugh it off if things get too uncomfortable "lol had to try". I've wanted to raise people's comp before and had to fight the machine. If this is that, they might obliquely give info because the real negotiation is with HR/HQ. Otherwise idk if there's much to really be done. Maybe point out inflation is a bitch and just move on with whatever is given? Because the batna is nothing and even a bluff is going to look weak because the boss started the conversation (what are the odds someone has an offer already in hand but waiting to be asked?)
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Feb 12, 2022 21:53
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Xguard86 posted:In situ negotiation person: I'll actually offer this up as an option. And he is conflict averse but willing to stick his neck out when it matters. His original job offer was for 140 and he negotiated them up to 160. He likes his boss too much and is too worried about coming off as rude, but I'm doing my best to coach him out of it.
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Feb 13, 2022 00:23
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if the boss is actually a good boss they will not be offput by your partner asking for more moneyArquinsiel posted:You are correct. "An EU practice" is pretty transparent bullshit TBH. There's nowhere near that degree of cultural commonality. it is possible that this is a practice that HQ, which is located in the EU, insists on, but I agree that it's more likely that it's cover for being able to increase salaries
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Feb 13, 2022 18:49
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I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference?
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Feb 14, 2022 17:09
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Magnetic North posted:I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference? Don't give people ranges. Tell them the number (a bit above what) you'd be happy with.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:12
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Magnetic North posted:I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference? First, assume the bottom to middle is way more likely than the top.( Often the top is straight marketing, reserved for HCOL areas, or an outlier due to some exception for one person with special circumstances.) Idk that the spread means anything. Def take their quoted range as credible. It's not carved on a tablet but they're probably trying to save time by not pursuing something that's never going to work out. Big companies especially are often very rigid on that stuff and it's an act of god to get an exception. Another sneaky reason they might give you a range: You don't have to tell them anything about your pay. Sometimes they try to use reciprocation to get that out of you. "Here is our range, now what do you make?" It's a bad trade. Not common and a red flag but FYI. Also remember, range is usually tied to level and level is often flexible where pay band is not. Ex if they bring you on as a gum scraper IV vs III; that might be a negotiation point for you. (That is also something the recruiter might not be thinking about, so mentioning it can sometimes actually help you by helping them.)
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Feb 14, 2022 18:14
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Magnetic North posted:I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference? If they give you their range without you asking, it's to confirm that they're not wasting their/your time (to a degree- sometimes places will use this excuse to get an exact number out of you way too early on, which is BS). I'd say something like "that sounds like it's in the right ballpark" or something like that. You can still eventually ask for something above the range (whether they make you give your number first or you countoffer), but just be careful to no go wildly over the range they gave or it can make you look like a crazy person. So like if the max of the range is 100k and you've already said that it's "in the ballbark" you could definitely try for like 110 (maybe even a little higher), but if you say something like "150" you're going to look like you either weren't listening or were lying the whole time. I'm having trouble finding this, but there's a letter on Ask A Manager that's from someone in HR asking what to do about this exact thing- their candidate said they were in the right ballpark with the range but then asked for something *way* over their max and the company was confused if it meant that person had huge balls or if they were just like... unpredictable and someone that shouldn't be hired because they basically lied through the whole process. Obviously the ideal here is to not have any of that happen and postpone talking numbers for as long as you can, but a company giving you a range and asking if it's okay (without you prompting a pay discussion) is somewhat common. If you still want to shoot high and only want the job if you can get a number above their range (ie. you don't care if they throw out your offer if they can't get you the number you want), then go ahead and take the risk. Just trying to say that this is a little different than "punishing" you for negotiating if you've been agreeing to a ballpark figure all through the interview process and then suddenly give a number WAY over that figure at the end.
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Feb 14, 2022 18:36
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Magnetic North posted:I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference? "Based on discussion of the duties and responsibilities and my top tier chickenfucking skills, I require $X to accept the role of Principal Chickenfucker." "That's above the range of Y-Z that I shared with you and my client can't go higher than $Z" Then either you are wiling to accept take $Z in which case "Depending on benefits and other aspects of the offer, I would be willing to consider an offer for Principal Chickenfucker for $Z" or you aren't in which case "I wish you luck filling the position. If you are interested in hiring me for $X, please do reach back out" someone should make a negotiating thread version of the Hit Da Bricks sharez0ne meme for this thread "Recruiter tries to make you name current salary?" "recruiter is annoying you in any way?" "company gives off bad vibes?" "company screws around with an offer?" "company won't meet your ask?" HIT DA BRICKS
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Feb 14, 2022 18:37
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:"Based on discussion of the duties and responsibilities and my top tier chickenfucking skills, I require $X to accept the role of Principal Chickenfucker." You don't have to accept! It's ok to keep looking! You have your own boots to lick!
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Feb 14, 2022 20:21
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Thanks for all the help my partner has a meeting with boss on Wednesday. I've shared all this, and most echoes what I started out saying. I'll update you all with how the meeting goes.
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Feb 14, 2022 21:31
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So I'm currently an IC making 130k base with a 48% bonus given my current performance. My bonus is set at 48%/32%/16% depending on if I get rated exceptional, exceeds, or meets expectations. I applied for an internal supervisor position and got it. The offer was for 136k with the same bonus structure; it's considered a lateral even though there will definitely be more responsibility. I'm thinking realistically I would probably hit the 32% bonus with my first year managing and then maybe go back up to 48% the year after. In my discussion with my manager I believe I am also on track to get a promotion as IC within a year which should lead to an increase in salary and bonus as well, though I don't know how much. So my thinking is as it stands the offer is more work/responsibility and a likely loss of income. I do want the managing experience though. I obviously have no leverage but I think it doesn't make sense to even accept the role without at least 140 base right? A 145 would get me to my current total comp if my bonus is 32%. So obviously I should look externally if I'm unhappy with my situation. But what should I do near term? I could stay put as IC and if the promotion comes soon with a decent raise then I'd be pretty happy with that. Or I could take the supervisor position and leverage that into a better compensated external manager position in a year or so; that's if they won't budge on the salary in the offer.
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Feb 15, 2022 16:15
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bamhand posted:So obviously I should look externally if I'm unhappy with my situation. But what should I do near term? I could stay put as IC and if the promotion comes soon with a decent raise then I'd be pretty happy with that. Or I could take the supervisor position and leverage that into a better compensated external manager position in a year or so; that's if they won't budge on the salary in the offer. What do you want to be doing in a year from now? Management or IC? If management, I would take the supervisor position. It's a lot harder to get a management position at a new company if you're not currently a manager. Totally unrelated, but I just published a blog post about my job search and negotiation from last fall. If anyone is willing to give me some feedback, it would be greatly appreciated! https://simpixelated.com/35-interviews-with-0-applications
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Feb 15, 2022 16:45
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sim posted:Totally unrelated, but I just published a blog post about my job search and negotiation from last fall. If anyone is willing to give me some feedback, it would be greatly appreciated! No real feedback, just curious why you targeted public companies? Strictly for the RSU compensation? I'm not a software developer (IT Infra), but if I ever switch jobs again, I'm avoiding public companies. Spent too many years worried about or letting quarterly numbers or the whims of the stock market influence the direction of the company.
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Feb 15, 2022 16:55
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sim posted:What do you want to be doing in a year from now? Management or IC? If management, I would take the supervisor position. It's a lot harder to get a management position at a new company if you're not currently a manager. That's a real good read. You went from management back into IC, it sounds like?
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Feb 15, 2022 17:12
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skipdogg posted:No real feedback, just curious why you targeted public companies? Strictly for the RSU compensation? I'm not a software developer (IT Infra), but if I ever switch jobs again, I'm avoiding public companies. Spent too many years worried about or letting quarterly numbers or the whims of the stock market influence the direction of the company. Thanks for reading! Yes, for the RSUs. Spent too many years worried about the whims of VC chasing CEOs in startup companies. I would have been willing to join a late-stage startup and that's mostly who I interviewed with (and my 3 other offers came from), but ultimately none of them could compete with the total comp of RSUs. I can definitely understand being on the other side and wanting to get out of public companies. I might get there in another 5 years. silvergoose posted:That's a real good read. You went from management back into IC, it sounds like? Thanks! Yep, exactly. I have a draft post in the works talking about that. Is that something you're interested in?
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Feb 15, 2022 17:17
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Possibly, or maybe management to management, or maybe staying put. Y'know, lots of possibilities!
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Feb 15, 2022 17:19
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sim posted:What do you want to be doing in a year from now? Management or IC? If management, I would take the supervisor position. It's a lot harder to get a management position at a new company if you're not currently a manager. Yeah, looking to be manager. I think I would take the role regardless and be a little unhappy about it if they don't budge. For future manager roles, how much experience are people looking for? 2+ years? Or would looking after one year be reasonable?
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Feb 15, 2022 17:19
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You can and should plan to be off to greener pa$ture$ as soon past the one year mark as possible.
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Feb 15, 2022 17:22
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I agree. 1 year of experience as
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Feb 15, 2022 17:26
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Eric the Mauve posted:You can and should plan to be off to greener pa$ture$ as soon past the one year mark as possible. Is one year enough for the manager title to stick? I was thinking of holding out where I am (recently started in management in a new company) until at least the 2 year mark. Though I'd also like to try up-leveling near that time frame as well. Depending on how grants work out, I'll want to start looking in year 3-4 regardless.
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Feb 15, 2022 17:35
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I asked and it sounded like 2 years was the best option because <2 looks like you're failing and bailing because of the lag between promotion and outcomes. Fwiw: I was so miserable I still tried to leave and got zero interest from comparable level roles and never got an offer as a senior IC either. Wound up with an internal promotion and transfer (lol).
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Feb 15, 2022 17:50
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2 years is certainly better but in the specific and common situation where you're being forced by your lovely cheapskate employer to do a manager job for IC pay you should at least be actively looking for an exit to a proper salary starting at the 1 year mark. It'll be easier to find past 2 years but you should at least be looking, you never know.
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Feb 15, 2022 17:56
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leper khan posted:Is one year enough for the manager title to stick? I was thinking of holding out where I am (recently started in management in a new company) until at least the 2 year mark. Def not less than a year (you probably don't want to work somewhere that is that desperate), I kinda like 2 years if I'm hiring a manager tbh but you could definitely start looking after 1. If you do bail for an IC role though you are probably going to be stuck in that IC track long term. I wouldn't move for less than a manager title. Supervisor title is fine for where you are now, but probably shouldn't move for another supe title either.
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Feb 15, 2022 22:30
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For what it's worth, I was getting contacted by recruiters for Director-level roles at other companies the same month I updated LinkedIn with my transition from IC to (front line) management. Job market is bonkers right now
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Feb 15, 2022 22:39
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I recently was able to use the great advice of this thread to negotiate a 22k salary bump from 108k to 130k. My situation is a little different as it is for a county government job, which is governed by civil service rules. The rules allow for negotiation, and it's public information. From the civil service ordinance code:code:However, I asked for appointment at Step 3 when I got my verbal offer, and after a couple weeks of radio silence I got my written offer with the third step. I actually have an odd situation where the salary in the written offer (about $155k) I got and already signed is significantly higher than the job classification's salary band (108k to 144k). I'm pretty sure I'll get $130k as that's the third step for the job I applied for. The $155k matches the third step in a completely different job classification, so I guess I'll have to see if they honor the written offer or will have to go with what it's supposed to be.
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Feb 15, 2022 23:14
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Whelp, they didn't go for my counter offer of $140, held firm at $136. Going to accept but I won't be happy about it! Definitely will be eager to see what's out there in year's time if I'm taking a pay cut with how our bonus is structured.
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Feb 16, 2022 18:38
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Your BATNA is "I'll stay where I am and get paid more, thanks" so like... remember that.
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Feb 16, 2022 18:51
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bamhand posted:Whelp, they didn't go for my counter offer of $140, held firm at $136. Going to accept but I won't be happy about it! Definitely will be eager to see what's out there in year's time if I'm taking a pay cut with how our bonus is structured. I always ask for at least 10% more. I feel like if you ask for too little it isn't enough of a difference and they think you won't actually care. 4/136 is less than 3%. You'll get more than that in yearly COLA.
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Feb 16, 2022 18:54
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Arquinsiel posted:Your BATNA is "I'll stay where I am and get paid more, thanks" so like... remember that. The issue with this is future income. There's not much room to grow as IC. leper khan posted:I always ask for at least 10% more. I feel like if you ask for too little it isn't enough of a difference and they think you won't actually care. It's considered a lateral move so they said even having the offer be at $136 over my current $130 is unusual. It's clearly all BS to penny pinch but it's also a particularly dumb system if you consider becoming manager a lateral but also allow higher manager positions to have much more earning potential. Would be fine if I could keep getting promotions and raises as an IC.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:01
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bamhand posted:The issue with this is future income. There's not much room to grow as IC. There's absolutely room to grow as an IC, and ICs pulling in 1M+. Though providing the impact (or, more tangibly, the appearance of impact) to do that is substantially more difficult. And the role at some point still doesn't look like earlier IC roles.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:11
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bamhand posted:The issue with this is future income. There's not much room to grow as IC.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:12
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I accepted an offer. For reference I make $116k now as a post-sales solutions engineer in NYC, not in FAANG or finance. I started talking to the recruiter two months ago, before I read this thread, and made the mistake of saying a number first and told them $120k-$140k. The job title is just "software engineer", no level included. Last week I had a second-round interview and it went well, but wasn't able to clarify what level they were hiring at. I followed up with the recruiter, he wasn't sure, so I told him to drop the lower end and just go ask for $140k, to show that I'm serious about being considered a senior. Yesterday the recruiter told me the company was initially offering $137k. I asked if there's any chance he could ask for $145k, and that I'm waiting to see if another company I was pursuing was going to make me an offer. He went back to the hiring manager and told them that, who replied that they were actually authorized to offer $150k. Other company came back to me this morning and passed me over anyway. So now I have a $150k offer, just by pushing a little bit. I would have accepted at $137k because my BATNA is to stay at a job where I'm severely burned out and unmotivated, but I'm feeling real smug right now.
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Feb 16, 2022 19:13
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