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KillHour posted:My very poor understanding as someone who does not live in Eastern Europe, but had it explained to me by a Ukranian at one point, is that when Ukrane was a part of the USSR, it was referred to that way, because Ukrane means "bread basket" and it was where the food was grown. It's kind of like saying "The Midwest" if you're in the US. By continuing to call it that, you're basically saying Ukrane (the country) is actually The ukrane (region of Russia) in the same way you would say The midwest (region of the United States). The theory (one of many, but kind of the dominant one, I guess) is that it actually comes from the old Slavic word for "borderland," so calling it "The Ukraine" implies that it's just Russia's frontier and not a separate country/culture itself.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:04
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CommieGIR posted:No, because 'The Ukraine' is treating it as a place rather than a country, and this has been something Russia has been subtly doing. Putin already made it clear he does not view Ukraine as a legitimate country, he feels that its a territory that must be subservient to Russian interests to that end they often repeatedly call Ukraine "the ukraine" Right, I don't see it. Ask me where I am from, and I would probably answer "The Czech Republic" and wouldn't consider it as saying that somehow it is not a country. ----- Anyway, I am willing to drop it here because I don't have a particular issue with using the article-less version, it just seems weird. Mokotow posted:I guess it’s hard for non-native English speakers? I’d say “the United States of America”, for example. Conversely, in Polish we’d say “jadę do Ukrainy” and not „na Ukrainę” because „do” is for countries and „na” is for regions, or something to that effect. I thought about this a bit, and there are countries I would use "na" for and places I would use "do" for, and while the former might not be grammaticla, the latter definitely is. Language is hard 
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Feb 16, 2022 23:05
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Most importantly: referring to people using the terms that they prefer to be referred by indicates that you respect them and consider them equals. People who purposefully and deliberately and repeatedly ignore those terms and use their own terms are indicating that they either do not respect those people and consider them equals, or that they do not find that putting in the effort to change an old habit is worthwhile.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:05
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Majorian posted:The theory (one of many, but kind of the dominant one, I guess) is that it actually comes from the old Slavic word for "borderland," so calling it "The Ukraine" implies that it's just Russia's frontier and not a separate country/culture itself. Thanks for clarifying. Same kinda vibe. You're implying there's a "of..." at the end of that, grammatically. But more importantly, sometimes things are just bad because assholes used them that way and you look like one of those assholes if you do it.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:06
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Could we get an Ukrainian poster here to clarify their preference?
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Feb 16, 2022 23:06
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Cugel the Clever posted:The reference is to the posters usage of "the Ukraine", not their usage of "the Ukrainian government". I think it's mostly just a combination of native English speakers (and a few others, like the Czech example) being used to throwing "the" in front of a country's name, then hearing or seeing "the Ukraine" in media and not thinking anything of it. I've always said just "Ukraine" but it never occurred to me that the alternative was actually a dogwhistle until it came up in the previous thread.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:08
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Cugel the Clever posted:The reference is to the posters usage of "the Ukraine", not their usage of "the Ukrainian government". Doh, I didn't notice the first one.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:08
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KillHour posted:Thanks for clarifying. Same kinda vibe. You're implying there's a "of..." at the end of that, grammatically. But more importantly, sometimes things are just bad because assholes used them that way and you look like one of those assholes if you do it. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. If you wear a red baseball cap in some parts of the U.S., you're probably going to get some dirty looks (or approving looks in other parts of the country), even if it doesn't say MAGA on it.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:08
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Cugel the Clever posted:The reference is to the posters usage of "the Ukraine", not their usage of "the Ukrainian government". Xarn posted:Right, I don't see it. Ask me where I am from, and I would probably answer "The Czech Republic" and wouldn't consider it as saying that somehow it is not a country. If it’s a noun and adjective, it always is with a definite article. The United States, the Dominican Republic, the Ivory Coast, and so on. That’s just how English language works.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:09
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Mokotow posted:I guess it’s hard for non-native English speakers? I’d say “the United States of America”, for example. Conversely, in Polish we’d say “jadę do Ukrainy” and not „na Ukrainę” because „do” is for countries and „na” is for regions, or something to that effect. Xarn posted:I thought about this a bit, and there are countries I would use "na" for and places I would use "do" for, and while the former might not be grammaticla, the latter definitely is. Language is hard The way it was explained to me, some right-wing elements use a "na Ukrainu" construction in Slavic languages to imply that Ukraine is a region of Russia and not its own country. The grammar is less clear in English but it gets exported over as "the Ukraine."
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Feb 16, 2022 23:10
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If it’s a noun and adjective, it always is with a definite article. The United States, the Dominican Republic, the Ivory Coast, and so on. That’s just how English language works. drat that actually works
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Feb 16, 2022 23:11
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I think all the damage to English-speaking poster perception here was done by a single 1995 episode of Seinfeld.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:13
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And the Gambia just to throw a wrench into it
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Feb 16, 2022 23:14
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steinrokkan posted:And the Gambia just to throw a wrench into it Yeah, blame that one on the river.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:17
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Fritz the Horse posted:The way it was explained to me, some right-wing elements use a "na Ukrainu" construction in Slavic languages to imply that Ukraine is a region of Russia and not its own country. The grammar is less clear in English but it gets exported over as "the Ukraine." Yeah, the thing is when Ukraine was a part of the USSR, you’d say “na Ukrainę” and that’s how it was until independence, and most people would still say “na Ukrainę”. It’s a similar case with Croatia - people incorrectly say “na Chorwację” but since it’s its own country now, “do Chorwacji” is correct. But then it’s gently caress logic Polish, you’d never go “na Estonię” during USSR for some reason, even though you’d go “na Litwę” and “na Łotwę”. 
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Feb 16, 2022 23:17
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steinrokkan posted:And the Gambia just to throw a wrench into it If I recall correctly, they named their country after a river. The real mystery is the Netherlands, which seems to be completely random. Much like their language. 
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Feb 16, 2022 23:17
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The simple fact is the Ukraine harkens to a time when the country was an imperial subject, it has connotations of old colonialist /racist mindset, and is not palatable for the same reasons we no longer talk about Ceylon or Celebes or Malaya or Rumania or Burma... Whether or not it makes grammatical sense is immaterial.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:19
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Mokotow posted:Yeah, the thing is when Ukraine was a part of the USSR, you’d say “na Ukrainę” and that’s how it was until independence, and most people would still say “na Ukrainę”. It’s a similar case with Croatia - people incorrectly say “na Chorwację” but since it’s its own country now, “do Chorwacji” is correct. But then it’s gently caress logic Polish, you’d never go “na Estonię” during USSR for some reason, even though you’d go “na Litwę” and “na Łotwę”. Sure and we're not straight up banning "the Ukraine." It's the intent that matters, if someone is using it deliberately to piss people off well that's a lame form of trolling and we don't need people making GBS threads the thread up with it. Intent is not always easy to infer so I'm going to keep being pedantic about it for a bit.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:20
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If I recall correctly, they named their country after a river. The real mystery is the Netherlands, which seems to be completely random. That's also an adjective and a noun. Just weirdly.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:22
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after Ukraine gained independence in 1991, the Associated Press officially dropped the use of “the” to indicate it was a country. for over three decades, the government has had an official policy of requesting that English speakers not use the “the” because it considers the term to imply that ukraine is a territory of a larger power i would not use it unless your aim is to piss people off
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Feb 16, 2022 23:23
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Fritz the Horse posted:Sure and we're not straight up banning "the Ukraine." Yeah, thanks for explaining! It’s certainly good to put these things together and know its not strictly down to grammar, but actual hostile language. Also, what’s that with Rumania? I keep seeing that spelling, but always though its one of those latent grammatical mistakes, like “hanger” instead of “hangar”.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:23
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from what i understand, almost all "the" names in english either come from 1) previous eras where said country was seen as just a geographical region/province of a greater, usually colonial empire. the gambia, the ivory coast, (we actually don't use 'the' too much here) the philippines, the netherlands etc. some still hold over in, let's say antiquated, off-color usage, like the ukraine, the congo, the sudan, etc. 2) where the "government structure" is part of the common name. 'x' republic, the united kingdom, etc. or both. "the united states" is called that because the individual states were seen much more separately up until the American Civil War, where they were usually called "These United States" etc. Tweezer Reprise fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Feb 16, 2022 |
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Feb 16, 2022 23:26
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steinrokkan posted:The simple fact is the Ukraine harkens to a time when the country was an imperial subject, it has connotations of old colonialist /racist mindset, and is not palatable for the same reasons we no longer talk about Ceylon or Celebes or Malaya or Rumania or Burma... Whether or not it makes grammatical sense is immaterial. Ceylon's kinda in an odd boat there, it's broadly an acceptable term for the island as long as you're not talking to someone even more ultranationalist than usual. or possibly, it's fine to use it to Sri Lankans but not to Brits Some of it might also be that Sri Lanka maintains good relations with the rest of the Commonwealth and feelings about British occupation are Complicated. I might compare the latter - or heck, both - with the Filipino "sure, the Americans were kinda dicks, but they weren't the Spanish or the goddamn Japanese".
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Feb 16, 2022 23:28
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cinci zoo sniper posted:If I recall correctly, they named their country after a river. The real mystery is the Netherlands, which seems to be completely random. "Lands" is a noun. The lowlands, the highlands, the wetlands, etc. Fake edit: The Nether-regions.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:30
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QuoProQuid posted:after Ukraine gained independence in 1991, the Associated Press officially dropped the use of “the” to indicate it was a country. for over three decades, the government has had an official policy of requesting that English speakers not use the “the” because it considers the term to imply that ukraine is a territory of a larger power This entire argument is really just an example of how goons are old and are remembering what they learned as a young kid/grade school if English is their first language.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:30
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Can we split the thread into those using the Ukraine and those using Ukraine as phrasing
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Feb 16, 2022 23:31
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Can we split the thread into those using the Ukraine and those using Ukraine as phrasing I'm going to go a step further and start calling it Poland. Edit: The PoLands
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Feb 16, 2022 23:33
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KillHour posted:I'm going to go a step further and start calling it Poland. now those are some real fighting words, what with the reason a big chunk of western Ukraine is in modern Ukraine
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Feb 16, 2022 23:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:This entire argument is really just an example of how goons are old and are remembering what they learned as a young kid/grade school if English is their first language. im p sure it's just one guy using it intentionally to stir poo poo and a bunch of people jumping in with variations of the same explanation but, yeah, goons old
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Feb 16, 2022 23:37
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Gumball Gumption posted:This entire argument is really just an example of how goons are old and are remembering what they learned as a young kid/grade school if English is their first language.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:38
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Cugel the Clever posted:It's also potentially (but not necessarily) indicative of media consumption. Moscow-oriented media sticks with the pejorative usage, so folks who are quick to downplay Russia's belligerence while centering complaints about the West and Ukraine will often go with the language they hear most. ah, the "people who disagree with me are bad, uncouth people" manouver, a classic of modern discourse
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Feb 16, 2022 23:43
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Linguistics is complicated subject and clearly lost among some people.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:49
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If you're really baffled by the concept in english just look at the same country. The French Republic, aka France. The Federal Republic of Germany, aka Germany. Never the France or the Germany. Hell the Czech Republic is bordered by the Slovak Republic, commonly known as just Slovakia. The United States of America, aka either the United States or America, never the America. There's a tiny handful of exceptions, like the Netherlands which is an old timey adjective + noun aka the Low Lands, and many countries named after rivers or islands. You should also use the accepted diplomatic name selected by the country in question if you aren't trying to make a point.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:54
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Mokotow posted:drat that actually works The Bahamas The Maldives The Gambia The Netherlands The Phillipines The Vatican City The Hague The Dalles The Bronx It's English, there is no rhyme, there is no reason, but there is no "The" in "Ukraine." piL fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 16, 2022 |
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Feb 16, 2022 23:55
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^ fwiw, I didn’t mean adjective+noun to be an exclusive rule for countriesOddObserver posted:That's also an adjective and a noun. Just weirdly. KillHour posted:"Lands" is a noun. The lowlands, the highlands, the wetlands, etc. That’s how I explain it to myself, sure, but it doesn’t feel as clean as others. People don’t really say the Newfoundland.
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Feb 16, 2022 23:55
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Linguistics is complicated subject and clearly lost among some people. Well let's go ahead and flush out any linguists in the thread just to be certain then *clears throat* You can tell Sapir-Whorf is correct because Klingons are very warlike and so is their language
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Feb 16, 2022 23:56
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Let's bring in the real expert on naming things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ7kioOFM-g
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Feb 16, 2022 23:59
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cinci zoo sniper posted:^ fwiw, I didn’t mean adjective+noun to be an exclusive rule for countries It sounds awkward? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rju4RWdEyZk&t=100s
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Feb 17, 2022 00:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw US foreign policy looking very desperate and Newman-like these days as the semi-periphery pushes back against their chronic obsession with neocolonialism and undermining the sovereignty of weaker nations using underhanded forms of political, military and economic duress
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Feb 17, 2022 00:20
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