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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Are you trying to reference Crimea, Chechnya, or Georgia? I mean I think I made it pretty obvious that I was referencing Afghanistan in the 80's but I didn't think I needed to spell the joke out that much. You were comparing a minor militant group that has zero political power in its country (Azov), to a series of major militants who fully represented the resistance to a government that they eventually took out (Mujahideen). This was a poor nonsense comparison, and works much better if compared to the Russian client pseudo-states where organized crime types and militant groups ARE the local forces of power (the two Donbas states, which is the "war in the east").
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Feb 17, 2022 02:16
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Are you trying to reference Crimea, Chechnya, or Georgia? I mean I think I made it pretty obvious that I was referencing Afghanistan in the 80's but I didn't think I needed to spell the joke out that much. I'm talking about the conflict in the Donbas started by Russia that, once reached a stalemate, had an unfortunate effect on weapons and munitions making their way back to Central and Western Ukraine.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:16
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Yes yes, you've nailed it on the head. There's a secret media cabal spreading lies at the behest of the Russians, and they can be spotted by their use of the word "the". SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Oh dang, well I guess then there can be no negative outcomes from supporting the most insane bloodthirsty reactionary faction in an unstable country to own the Russians because the analogy isn't perfectly exact.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:32
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Also I wonder what the US alt-righters think about Azov battalion because Russia's reactionary anti gay stuff, footsie with white nationalism and Wagner Group used to get them all hot and bothered and now they're the jewish controlled opposition or something against the brave Azov volunteers that are willing to be even more on the nose than ever like the Wagner Group dude or whatever. I can see them going both ways depending on their preferred media, or their individual backgrounds. Some right wing sites are still anti-Russia and treat Ukrainian independence as a nationalist issue (and a chance to play soldier). Others see Putin as a champion against American Homo-Globalist Communism. Apparently Canada has a large, and very right-wing, Ukrainian expat community as a holdover from the Cold War, but I'm not familiar with how their politics have evolved on this issue post-Maidan. It's hard enough keeping up with insane Right Wing Americans.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:33
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Could someone please point me to where you think I said they're representative of Ukraine.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:35
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CommieGIR posted:Also love that you are linking us to a Russian Government Investigation Department. I mean I link to statements by people and organisations I disagree with all the time, especially when I've done a bit of digging after reading a news article summarising something.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:35
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Shes Not Impressed posted:I'm talking about the conflict in the Donbas started by Russia that, once reached a stalemate, had an unfortunate effect on weapons and munitions making their way back to Central and Western Ukraine. I'm not sure how you're going to get historical precedents from an ongoing war.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:36
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XMNN posted:Isn't this just called "linking to a primary source" seeing as these are the people doing the investigating? Its an Internal Investigative Service that is employed actively by a country who is looking for excuse to invade another country they don't like. This is like trusting the excuses for the Iraq War. Do we really trust Russia to be honest about what they've found given the current position they are in any more than we shouldn't have trusted all the people banging war drums about Iraq? Do you trust the CIA's justifications for the Iraq War? If Russia believes they've found war crimes, they'll hopefully invite third parties to help investigate....except I suspect they won't. And again: Russia has been in Donbass for 8 years. There's been basically an active civil war in Donbass for as long that Russia has supplied weapons and units for. Forgive me if I'm going to distrust a primary source from a country actively trying to justify their military actions that they have been threatening for the past few months. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 02:42
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The way tankies are spewing, you might even think the current government is the same one as immediately post-Maidan. And not the 4th one after, with multiple intervening elections and a change in controlling parties.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:46
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Could someone please point me to where you think I said they're representative of Ukraine. Comparing them to an entire major side of a conflict by comparing them to the Mujahideen.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:03
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Could we all please dial down the sarcasm a notch?
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Feb 17, 2022 03:04
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I could make fun of some journalists instead? https://twitter.com/katiedavies91/status/1494051108771274752
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Feb 17, 2022 03:06
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Why should we care about Putin or Russia if the US has no legitimate role or interest in the region other than Ukraine being a lucrative market for arms sales and international development loans? Do you think US involvement is keeping Russia out? If so, how? Is there a mountain of hypocrisy for Western leaders to be holding others to that standard? Sure! I'm pretty sure most people in this thread aren't huge fans of much of Western foreign policy. But there's no logic to decrying America's imperialist misdeeds while at the same time giving Russia's a pass, unless your opposition isn't actually concerned with the misdeeds so much as it is unduly focused on any individual perpetrator. In this case, Ukraine's request for Western assistance goes toward making them too spiky for Putin to attempt to take a bite out of. Adding to Ukraine's capacity to defend itself enough to make Putin think twice about following through with his threats is pretty cheap, all things considered. Certainly cheaper than the fallout of a Russian invasion.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:15
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Grape posted:Comparing them to an entire major side of a conflict by comparing them to the Mujahideen. Okay, if you want to claim you over analyzed my analogy to put whatever words you want in my mouth- do you think Whabbism was broadly representative of the entire Mujahideen during the conflict? Or maybe things outside actors did may have influenced that?
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Feb 17, 2022 03:22
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OddObserver posted:I could make fun of some journalists instead? Did... did they think the 3M population capital of a European country would consist of a dirt road and a few confused-looking farmers?
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Feb 17, 2022 03:27
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Okay, if you want to claim you over analyzed my analogy to put whatever words you want in my mouth- do you think Whabbism was broadly representative of the entire Mujahideen during the conflict? Or maybe things outside actors did may have influenced that? Your analogy really depended on the scale of the extremists receiving support, because it was weighting everything on "Well if we give the crazy reactionaries weapons, down the line we will hatch a whole country run by such people". Which really falls apart unless one assumes Azov is as the Mujahideen were, basically the entire side of a war. So yes, you were definitely claiming Azov broadly represents the Ukrainian side of the conflict. Otherwise there was no point to your whole analogy at all.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:28
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CommieGIR posted:Its an Internal Investigative Service that is employed actively by a country who is looking for excuse to invade another country they don't like. The only assertion that Conspiratiorist seemed to be making in that post was that an investigation was being opened, I didn't read it as endorsing the validity of that investigation one way or the other particularly but perhaps there's some context I missed. Conspiratiorist posted:https://sledcom.ru/news/item/1656580?fbclid=IwAR1iWVW40g9V6z_ynIWRGjhYffpeWRcHYVy0ZwLBOLdVEmmnVfIwE47wWZc The link is to a statement from the department doing the investigation, saying they're doing an investigation, which supports the assertion made. To return to the Iraq analogy, it would be the same as linking to, say, a CIA statement saying they believed there to be WMDs in Iraq and saying "the CIA believes there are WMDs in Iraq". If the problem is not adding the context that the CIA are obviously inherently untrustworthy, that's fair enough, but I don't think linking to their own words should be a problem in and of itself. Generally, I'd say that if someone says they're doing something, it's ok to use those words as evidence that at the very least they claim they're doing that thing. If you'd prefer a different source for the claim that the Russians are investigating alleged mass graves in the Donbas, you can find some secondary sources, but the ones I could find with a quick Google all seem to be quoting the same statement, or are framed in a "State Department warns about Russian disinformation" sort of way and don't include much about the actual investigation beyond a reference. https://www.jpost.com/international/article-696703 quote:The committee claimed that the civilians found in the area controlled by Russian-backed separatists were killed by Ukrainian shelling. "The Investigative Committee continues to take all possible measures to uphold the principle of the inevitability of punishment for those responsible for committing crimes in Donetsk and Luhansk areas," said the committee. https://inews.co.uk/news/russia-investigation-mass-graves-ukraine-experts-propaganda-justify-aggression-1465639 quote:The Russian Investigative Committee — the country’s main federal investigation authority — claimed in a statement on its website earlier today that it had seen evidence that “thousands of Russian-speaking civilians” have been killed by Ukrainian forces in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. https://tass.com/world/1404739 quote:WASHINGTON, February 16. /TASS/. Russia’s statements about the mass graves of civilians in Donbass may be disinformation, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki told reporters on Wednesday. https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1494003189905043458?t=SmWO0mlBb9Owpcbg2rN91w&s=19 You can quote something someone says without either liking them or believing it. It's obviously good to dig into the motivations and facts behind the things people say, which is why it's often useful to find the actual statement or paper or other news article that the article you're reading is citing from.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:34
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XMNN posted:You can quote something someone says without either liking them or believing it. It's obviously good to dig into the motivations and facts behind the things people say, which is why it's often useful to find the actual statement or paper or other news article that the article you're reading is citing from. You can also do a background of the poster posting this claim and quickly discover that maybe they are sharing this link because they have specific feelings about the events in Ukraine and possible US motives. Strongly suggest you do that. Regardless: Russia claims war crimes. Russia that also shot down an airliner and simply shrugged. I'll believe Russia has found war crimes when they invite third party verification. Right now, it just reads as an attempt to justify further Russian military action and nothing more. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 03:37
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Okay, if you want to claim you over analyzed my analogy to put whatever words you want in my mouth- do you think Whabbism was broadly representative of the entire Mujahideen during the conflict? Or maybe things outside actors did may have influenced that? This is off topic, and I'd be glad to take it to another thread if you want, but none of the mujahedeen were Wahabi, and neither was the Taliban, which overthrew the mujahedeen . The only Wahabis in Afghanistan were Saudi volunteers.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:39
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OddObserver posted:I could make fun of some journalists instead? Ah journalists, apparently doing less research then the average backpacker about places they're informing others about. Like obviously a Journalist can't know everything about everything, but if you're reporting about eastern European politics than I feel like it shouldn't be to much to ask to know, that yeah Eastern European cities often have "hipster bars" and "modern restaurants". Feels like getting tech support from someone who doesn't know that computers need electricity to work. It's possible they've got a good script in front of them and they may help, but they probably have little idea of what's actually going on.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:40
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Cugel the Clever posted:The "What's the US interest in this conflict, anyways??!" take is especially silly as, aside from Russia instigating this crisis with a goal of seating Putin across from Western heads of state to bolster his image, the US and all of us have a huge incentive to prevent wars of violent conquest wherever they might occur. I like to fall back on a reductive village analogy: if someone on the other side of town beats the gently caress out of his neighbor, seizing his home or enslaving him outright, it sets one hell of a bad precedent! If the village fails to hold the belligerent at least somewhat accountable for their crimes and set the situation right, there's unfortunately others who might follow their example and themselves seek to take what they want by force. That's not a village I think any of us want to live in. Yeah, it's like Imperial Japan falling back on the "Wow, hypocrites much?" argument when called out on their colonial campaigns in Asia. Sure, they were exactly right that the US and Britain were hypocrites, but that wasn't going to make them look any better or turn the oil back on.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:44
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Grape posted:You were comparing a minor militant group that has zero political power in its country (Azov), to a series of major militants who fully represented the resistance to a government that they eventually took out (Mujahideen). It bears repeating, but they do have political power. Their political wing is called National Corps. They are not represented in Rada, thankfully, but do have some representation in local governments. More importantly, though, they are very active in staging street protests and pushing the government towards the military solution of the conflict. It is also an open secret that they are used by an ever changing cavalcade of oligarchs and politicians (both nominally pro-Russian and nationalist) to steer all sorts of poo poo to score political points for them, and they often suspiciously avoid any consequences for things like assaulting journalists they deem pro-Russian, or harassing Russian-speaking foreigners in the streets, or disrupting Victory Day marches, or just publicly advocating for re-education camps for people who lived on occupied territories. This very real issue is blown out of proportion by Russian propaganda, but it shouldn't be ignored or dismissed out of hand. If you can acknowledge that when a bunch of totally not-nazis march with torches in American towns under the guise of protecting historical heritage of South's Civil War heroes, and a major political party tacitly approves of their actions, there is a systemic issue, even if the government officially condemns the radical right, you should be able to acknowledge the same happening in Ukraine. The same goes for Ukrainisation. It's not a genocide Putin claims it to be, far from it. The Russian language is not banned from schools or from media, but there are laws in place that limit its usage. The laws also limit the usage of other languages in a similar way, but EU languages, like Hungarian, are treated differently and enjoy some exceptions that Russian (and other minority non-EU languages) don't enjoy. It's a real systemic issue that is acknowledged by CoE's Venice Commission. On the plus side, at least from what I hear from Russian and Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians alike, to the chagrin of far right nationalists, Ukrainisation laws are not properly enforced, especially in Russian-speaking regions. This, however, means, that small businesses or individuals do get from time to time targeted by said nationalists for real and perceived failures to adhere to Ukrainisation laws. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 03:44
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Grape posted:Your analogy really depended on the scale of the extremists receiving support, because it was weighting everything on "Well if we give the crazy reactionaries weapons, down the line we will hatch a whole country run by such people". Which really falls apart unless one assumes Azov is as the Mujahideen were, basically the entire side of a war. Okay so can I take this to mean that you claiming I said "Azov is representative of the entire Ukrainian side" was entirely based upon your own mistken interpretation of my analogy and nothing I actually said?
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Feb 17, 2022 03:49
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Epicurius posted:This is off topic, and I'd be glad to take it to another thread if you want, but none of the mujahedeen were Wahabi, and neither was the Taliban, which overthrew the mujahedeen . The only Wahabis in Afghanistan were Saudi volunteers. That was kinda my point, but I guess nothing is going to stop the power of them insisting I believe something that I explicit said I didn't.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:53
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:That was kinda my point, but I guess nothing is going to stop the power of them insisting I believe something that I explicit said I didn't. I guess I'm just kind of confused at why you brought up Wahabism at all, or the Mujhadeen? Sorry. I probably just wasn't clever enough to get the analogy.
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Feb 17, 2022 03:58
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And I guess, because there are probably people in this thread who think brave separatists fight for equality and socialism for all, I should also mention that Ukrainians and other minorities are not treated particularly well in Crimea and in LDNR. If anything, their language and cultural rights are less protected than those of Russians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians in unoccupied Ukrainian regions.
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Feb 17, 2022 04:00
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KillHour posted:Did... did they think the 3M population capital of a European country would consist of a dirt road and a few confused-looking farmers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mYqY5YELd0&t=13s
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Feb 17, 2022 04:03
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 There's the feint I was anticipating! Russia you can't fool meeeeeee! US official: Russia adds 7K more troops near Ukraine border posted:Ukrainians defied pressure from Moscow with a national show of flag-waving unity Wednesday, while the U.S. warned that Russia had added as many as 7,000 troops near Ukraine’s borders despite Kremlin declarations that forces were being pulled back from the region. While a Russian invasion of Ukraine did not materialize as feared, the United States and its allies maintained that the threat is still strong, with Europe’s security and economic stability in the balance.
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Feb 17, 2022 04:39
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dr_rat posted:Like obviously a Journalist can't know everything about everything, but if you're reporting about eastern European politics than I feel like it shouldn't be to much to ask to know, that yeah Eastern European cities often have "hipster bars" and "modern restaurants". it depends, yknow? i didn't find many hipster bars in vladikavkaz. may have been other reasons for that though. Paladinus posted:It bears repeating, but they do have political power. Their political wing is called National Corps. They are not represented in Rada, thankfully, but do have some representation in local governments. More importantly, though, they are very active in staging street protests and pushing the government towards the military solution of the conflict. It is also an open secret that they are used by an ever changing cavalcade of oligarchs and politicians (both nominally pro-Russian and nationalist) to steer all sorts of poo poo to score political points for them, and they often suspiciously avoid any consequences for things like assaulting journalists they deem pro-Russian, or harassing Russian-speaking foreigners in the streets, or disrupting Victory Day marches, or just publicly advocating for re-education camps for people who lived on occupied territories. This very real issue is blown out of proportion by Russian propaganda, but it shouldn't be ignored or dismissed out of hand. If you can acknowledge that when a bunch of totally not-nazis march with torches in American towns under the guise of protecting historical heritage of South's Civil War heroes, and a major political party tacitly approves of their actions, there is a systemic issue, even if the government officially condemns the radical right, you should be able to acknowledge the same happening in Ukraine. it's true, but most of the time they're brought up it's not in the context of a nuanced or well-informed discussion of ukrainian domestic politics and society. SMEGMA_MAIL's "WE ARE ARMING THE HOMONAZI FORCES AND BY DOING SO INVITE THE NEXT TALIBAN REGIME" alarmist hot takes that essentially parrot Russian talking points are by far the majority. these add nothing substantive to anyone's understanding of the situation, they just assist Russia's (admittedly successful) campaign to influence the narrative about a region most people in the US and western Europe have limited familiarity with. far-right movements, and their influence in society, aren't particularly unusual, as anyone who was alive in the US for the past few years should be well aware. this isn't a /good/ thing, but it does not somehow make Ukraine particularly unique. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 04:44
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Epicurius posted:I guess I'm just kind of confused at why you brought up Wahabism at all, or the Mujhadeen? Sorry. I probably just wasn't clever enough to get the analogy. No, you probably know more about the details than me. It's more that the CIA sent resources to the ISI sent the lions share of the resources to the most hardliners (ie, Hekyatmar) that later became key Jihadist leaders or directly supported global terrorism, and encouraged the gulf states to export their own stuff . The USA has been sending aid to Ukraine who also fell into the same trap where they've chosen to accept and enable the most vile factions because they can provide fanatical fighters. These kind of reactionary movements are cancerous particuarly in times when these type of fighters are useful, and while it's thankfully not that popular in Ukraine yet, it's growing and growing and it''s going to be a problem in Europe for decades. It's insane to me that western media is playing into the exact same narrative. Look at this: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60374655 BBC covering an Azov publicity event. I actually discovered this on my own, and noticed the patches. There's no way someone who works at the BBC didn't notice that either, and they still chose to parrot them. The fact that the NATO hasn't demanded that Ukraine not allow a state sanctioned SS division to be part of their armed forces is not going to end well.
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Feb 17, 2022 04:54
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:SMEGMA_MAIL's "WE ARE ARMING THE HOMONAZI FORCES AND BY DOING SO INVITE THE NEXT TALIBAN REGIME" JFC I give up never post in D&D (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 04:56
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Here we go...? https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1494158870755049474
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Feb 17, 2022 04:58
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:
Well, using veterancy(?)[1] as political cover for being hired thugs for competing oligarchic interests is pretty specific to Ukraine's current circumstances. Of course those groups won't have existed without the war, and it's the war that makes it harder to get rid of them (and unsurprisingly the worst one is the one that survived... perhaps because people who were really just interested in protecting their country were happy to get a spot in the National Guard). Of course was would really empower them is the West going full Munich. Personally, I hope someone checks their finances thoroughly. Won't be surprised a few thinly disguised transfers from Moscow (not because there aren't Ukrainians with view this bad, but because this is who they are ultimately helping). [1] I think a bunch of groups tried it in 2014 w/o doing any actual fighting. I think some form of Azov was in at least one actual battle --- where they stupidly overextended and had to get their asses bailed out by Ukrainian Marines over some village in a.. highly strategically dubious location.
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Feb 17, 2022 05:02
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This is the rarest of times where the Twitter responses are mature and rational.
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Feb 17, 2022 05:02
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They seem to be basing this entirely on retweeting Sputnik, so I wouldn't read anything into this until it's being reported more widely. tweet link Elysiume fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 05:06
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THE FEINT IS HERE THE FEINT IS HERE
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Feb 17, 2022 05:11
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no one is falling for NATO's dumb false flag
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Feb 17, 2022 05:27
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#нюдсочетверг is still the hottest trend on russian twitter, same as every thursday, so i can confidently say the invasion has not started
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Feb 17, 2022 05:31
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Regarde Aduck posted:no one is falling for NATO's dumb false flag Could you clarify what you mean here? How is NATO staging a false flag in relation to the tweets above?
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Feb 17, 2022 05:33
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Regarde Aduck posted:no one is falling for NATO's dumb false flag
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Feb 17, 2022 05:34
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