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TipTow posted:The missiles that could be stationed in Ukraine were it to join NATO? An offer of membership that NATO shows no sign of making to Ukraine?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:32
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Rodiel posted:Are the Russians not allowed to worry about the same things? They already have missiles on their doorstep, i wouldn't want more myself. yes, obviously, the russians are allowed to worry about missiles or nato troops on their border. i've said i think they do have valid security concerns. that doesn't make what they've been doing any less ghoulish, and this kind of security logic tends to justify awful behavior. like, ah well can you imagine if the soviets had bases in chile? the us are only human, they had no choice but to install pinochet Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 19:33
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TipTow posted:The missiles that could be stationed in Ukraine were it to join NATO? Hypothetical missiles that don't actually exist not actually deployed anywhere. If that's the bar you are setting then all missiles always exist everwhere.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:33
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Majorian posted:Biden's the de facto leader of NATO, one of the two big empires Ukraine finds itself caught in-between; I don't think it's unfair to acknowledge his role in this. Nah, I am not complaining about your post (even if I don't agree with most of them). I am just posting it as one of the examples of posts about Biden, to someone who is incapable of pressing Ctrl+F "biden" 
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Feb 19, 2022 19:34
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Alchenar posted:Hypothetical missiles that don't actually exist not actually deployed anywhere. Reminds me a bit of an invasion everyone had been assuring me is imminent any day now for weeks
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Feb 19, 2022 19:36
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Concerned Citizen posted:yes, obviously, the russians are allowed to worry about missiles or nato troops on their border. i've said i think they do have valid security concerns. that doesn't make what they've been doing any less ghoulish, and this kind of security logic tends to justify awful behavior. Alchenar posted:Hypothetical missiles that don't actually exist not actually deployed anywhere. It doesn't matter what YOU think. If the Russians are scared then they are scared. Only the Russians decided what the Russians do.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Rodiel posted:if putin wanted war, why hasent he invaded already? He has invaded already! He did it back in 2014! More seriously: If Putin doesn't want war, what's the point of sending 100,000 troops to the border and making impossible demands?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Russian artillery murders two Ukrainians just today, is staging a whole bunch of nonsense try to try to fire up the public. Tankies: why does Joe Biden want war!?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Alchenar posted:Hypothetical missiles that don't actually exist not actually deployed anywhere. The missiles do exist, you overreached there.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Terminal autist posted:Reminds me a bit of an invasion everyone had been assuring me is imminent any day now for weeks Sure, but it's a lot easier to confirm whether missiles have been stationed in a country vs. lock-in the exact date that an invasion could occur if it is planned. IF Russia does plan to invade, there are so many variables at play in terms of how and when they do so, that trying to predict that is a fool's errand.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Concerned Citizen posted:yes, obviously, the russians are allowed to worry about missiles or nato troops on their border. i've said i think they do have valid security concerns. that doesn't make what they've been doing any less ghoulish, and this kind of security logic tends to justify awful behavior. like, ah well can you imagine if the soviets had bases in chile? the us are only human, they had no choice but to install pinochet this is insane
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Feb 19, 2022 19:38
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Rodiel posted:It doesn't matter what YOU think. If the Russians are scared then they are scared. Only the Russians decided what the Russians do. I guess it doesn't matter what the scared Ukrainians care about then!
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Feb 19, 2022 19:39
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Sinteres posted:The missiles do exist, you overreached there. Not in Germany or Turkey they don't. Or waiting to be deployed to Ukraine upon their acceptance to NATO (which, again, hasn't been offered).
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Feb 19, 2022 19:40
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Terminal autist posted:Reminds me a bit of an invasion everyone had been assuring me is imminent any day now for weeks Did we park 100 thousand missile batteries on the border of Ukraine without me noticing? Some people are so brain poisoned that they can take a Russian invasion of a sovereign nation (again) and blame it on the US. Please donate to further research on Greenwald's disease and help these poor sick people.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:40
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TipTow posted:The missiles that could be stationed in Ukraine were it to join NATO? Nuclear missiles? AFAIK the US hasn't had an active MRBM or SRBM since the Pershings were discontinued in the early 90s. Cruise missiles? The ground-launched nuclear Tomahawks were trashed around the same time and the naval ones around a decade ago. They sure as hell aren't going to start building ICBMs silos in Ukraine so what, you're proposing they'll start basing B-52s with a handful of air launched nuclear cruise missiles in Ukraine for...reasons?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:41
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I have no idea if Russia is going to invade but if they do I'm going to buy everyone who said they definitely won't a red title and if they don't I'm going to do the same to everyone who said they definitely will even though I honestly can't think of nearly as many of the latter 
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Feb 19, 2022 19:41
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Not in Germany or Turkey they don't. The existence of the missiles and their deployment were two different things in OP's post. The missiles clearly do exist even if they aren't deployed.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:41
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Rodiel posted:Look, I dont want war, but a lot of you seem to. The only way to stop it is to understand that the Russians are humans to. They have the same fears that we do, its not that hard to understand. Quote someone ITT saying they want a war.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Did we park 100 thousand missile batteries on the border of Ukraine without me noticing? no invasion is happening
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Feb 19, 2022 19:42
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Sinteres posted:The existence of the missiles and their deployment were two different things in OP's post. The missiles clearly do exist even if they aren't deployed. What missiles, specifically, are you talking about?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:42
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Rodiel posted:no invasion is happening That's true, it's not an "invasion", it'll be a "Peacekeeping mission"
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Feb 19, 2022 19:43
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What missiles, specifically, are you talking about? this is insane dude
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Feb 19, 2022 19:43
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Sinteres posted:The missiles do exist, you overreached there. Nah land-based TLAMs are still in the trial phase. From what I know it's fairly trivial to make a land based version but the US has only bothered to do the work on this until they lost patience with Russian non-compliance with INF. Once again it's Russia's actions creating the threat it complains about,.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:44
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SourKraut posted:That's true, it's not an "invasion", it'll be a "Peacekeeping mission" will you admit you were wrong when it doesnt happen?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:44
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Rodiel posted:no invasion is happening It seems like we don't know if it is going to happen and anyone saying anything other than  is pushing an agenda most likely.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:45
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Rodiel posted:this is insane my point is that you can justify literally any kind of intervention with security logic. countries as large as the us and russia have global interests. it's exactly what has turned the cia into what it is and why they can have a hundred thousand scandals/failures but still continue to receive infinite funding. but no, i don't think you can justify mass murder because it erodes your great power position.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:45
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Rodiel posted:will you admit you were wrong when it doesnt happen? I'm not saying an invasion will occur. I hope it doesn't. But I'm also not saying it won't like you are.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:45
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Not in Germany or Turkey they don't. Or waiting to be deployed to Ukraine upon their acceptance to NATO (which, again, hasn't been offered). Does Kaliningrad count as Germany?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:45
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If the US was hellbent on stationing missiles as close to Russia as possible, wouldn't it be much easier to just station them in Latvia?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:46
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Concerned Citizen posted:my point is that you can justify literally any kind of intervention with security logic. countries as large as the us and russia have global interests. it's exactly what has turned the cia into what it is and why they can have a hundred thousand scandals/failures but still continue to receive infinite funding. but no, i don't think you can justify mass murder because it erodes your great power position. agreedo
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Feb 19, 2022 19:46
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Alchenar posted:Nah land-based TLAMs are still in the trial phase. From what I know it's fairly trivial to make a land based version but the US has only bothered to do the work on this until they lost patience with Russian non-compliance with INF. Once again it's Russia's actions creating the threat it complains about,. Nah they did exist in the 80s but were all decommissioned in 1991 to comply with the INF treaty.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:47
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Meanwhile in reality...quote:Ukraine conflict: Rebels declare general mobilisation as fighting grows
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Feb 19, 2022 19:47
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Did we park 100 thousand missile batteries on the border of Ukraine without me noticing? In fact, we brokered the removal of nukes from Ukraine in 94 even while Russia’s influence in the region was at a nadir and the only thing Ukraine apparently gets from it in return in retrospect is a 30 year land lease of its own territory while Russia regrouped. Good luck getting any country to agree to a course of disarmament in light of Russia’s actions the past few weeks/years (same as US later actions in Iraq). Putin has highlighted the lack of of US/NATO ability to stop them if you don’t have your own means of deterrence. China has taken notes and will likely use this as a blueprint on Taiwan the next few years.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:48
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GaussianCopula posted:If the US was hellbent on stationing missiles as close to Russia as possible, wouldn't it be much easier to just station them in Latvia? We already almost certainly have SSBNs in a close enough vicinity to rain down both nuclear and conventional missiles on Russia, so stationing missiles on land where they're easy to target is probably not something the US wants to do regardless.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:48
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Alchenar posted:Once again it's Russia's actions creating the threat it complains about,. I'm afraid that's not entirely the case. The U.S. was the country that allowed START to expire, unilaterally withdrew from the ABM Treaty, and announced a planned missile defense site in Poland. That site is on schedule to open later this year. Obviously it takes two to tango, and Russia has done as much to contribute to the situation as the U.S., but I don't think it's fair to assign all the blame to Russia for the breakdown of the bilateral arms control regime.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:48
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GaussianCopula posted:If the US was hellbent on stationing missiles as close to Russia as possible, wouldn't it be much easier to just station them in Latvia? its not as big a deal as it was 50 years ago, it was a technical thing then. But it should still be a big political thing no matter whos involved. i dont want nukes on the border of my country and i dont blame russia for felling the same!
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Feb 19, 2022 19:49
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Nah they did exist in the 80s but were all decommissioned in 1991 to comply with the INF treaty. Okay that's true but my understanding is that it's an easy-but-non-trivial task to make them real again. It's not about dusting old stuff off, it's about making totally new launcher systems and then going through the process of making sure they actually work.
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Feb 19, 2022 19:49
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A missile defense site in Poland, while dumb and provocative IMO, is not the same thing as batteries of IRBMs
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Feb 19, 2022 19:50
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SourKraut posted:We already almost certainly have SSBNs in a close enough vicinity to rain down both nuclear and conventional missiles on Russia, so stationing missiles on land where they're easy to target is probably not something the US wants to do regardless. That makes it ok?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:50
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I dont want to die in a nuclear war. maybe im built different?
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Feb 19, 2022 19:51
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