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Darth Walrus posted:TBF, the Federation had given Zeon forces precious little reason to be afraid until that point. If you had a Zaku, you were almost invincible. I wouldn't go that far. It was a very rare pilot that could one-on-one a Zaku with anything the Federation had smaller than a capital ship, but considering that we have examples of tankers and fighter pilots winning a 1-on-1 with a Zaku, I'd say that it was understood that there was a chance you could die. It was just likely the next guy would avenge you.
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Feb 18, 2022 23:36
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chiasaur11 posted:I wouldn't go that far. It was a very rare pilot that could one-on-one a Zaku with anything the Federation had smaller than a capital ship, but considering that we have examples of tankers and fighter pilots winning a 1-on-1 with a Zaku, I'd say that it was understood that there was a chance you could die if you got cocky. It was just likely the next guy would avenge you. It reads more accurate with this. You kinda needed to walk right into a tank ambush to get got vs a Type 61. Which, y'know, rule one of armored warfare is not walking into a tank ambush.
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Feb 19, 2022 00:03
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Being a Type 61 crewman must be one of the worst jobs in the OYW and only beaten by the poor bastards Zeon put inside a Dopp fighter.
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Feb 19, 2022 00:07
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I'd take it over the poor fucks stuck in a fanfan
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Feb 19, 2022 00:15
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Arc Hammer posted:Being a Type 61 crewman must be one of the worst jobs in the OYW and only beaten by the poor bastards Zeon put inside a Dopp fighter. Still better than being in the poor bloody infantry with an anti Zaku missile kit.
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Feb 19, 2022 00:15
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Eh, it works pretty well if you can lure them into a village and pose a contrived ambush. They basically have to die so you can express your man-pain.
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Feb 19, 2022 00:23
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chiasaur11 posted:Still better than being in the poor bloody infantry with an anti Zaku missile kit. Honestly instead of a WWII analogue that one was a Fulda Gap analogue.
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Feb 19, 2022 00:36
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Warmachine posted:I thought the first two episodes of IGLOO 2 took place before even the early-production Ground GMs rolled off the line. Like the first episode took place during the original drop operations when everyone was tripping over themselves to get away from the Zakus as fast as possible. Around Baikonur if memory serves. You're right but neither foot soldiers nor wounded tank vets are going to see the cockpit of a GM except for evaluating their potential.
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Feb 19, 2022 04:08
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Argas posted:You're right but neither foot soldiers nor wounded tank vets are going to see the cockpit of a GM except for evaluating their potential. At least a few GM pilots were explicitly tank veterans. I know one of the White Dingos was, from memory.
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Feb 19, 2022 04:16
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Warmachine posted:I don't think Wing ever spends the time to give the Colonies any kind of united structure. We're told the communication and collaboration between colonies is heavily restricted by the Alliance and OZ, but we never actually see this perspective. Compare that to the relatively well developed political and class structure given to the Alliance/OZ. I mean, to be fair, that's just tradition really, cause we rarely get a good insight into the actual problems in the colonies during UC productions where they're relevant. We have no idea in the original show what caused Zeon to rebel, and it's only supplementary material that gives you any idea of that. We get a bit more insight into the colonies in Zeta and ZZ, but problems in the colonies aren't a major element of those shows, because the antagonists are Earth based. Then in Char's Counterattack, Char is whipping the colonies up again, and we're really just relying on being told what the problems are. It's a similar story in F91. We're told some of the issues by characters monologuing, and that's kind of it. It's more understandable in those two, since they're movies, but it's also true in Victory, because the show doesn't give any good information on the root cause of the conflict. Warmachine posted:In reality, this is exactly what it was. "Don't engage if you can avoid it" would have been a better standing order but Char is Captain Ahab. Char doesn't have orders not to engage the White Base, but once he's demoted for not protecting Garma, he does have orders to patrol the African coast and deliberately goes out of his way to chase the White Base across the Atlantic despite those orders. It works out, since he finds Jaburo because of it, but he still did it mostly for petty, personal reasons rather than because of any grand plan to expose Jaburo. He doesn't even originally care about the White Base either, since it's just a thing he stumbled across on return from someplace else, and decided to pursue since he figured destroying or capturing the Federation's new weapons would earn him promotion and get him closer to the Zabis. Which is a questionable motive, but at the end of the day, Zeon kind of had to try and confront the Federation's new weapons. It'd be even dumber if they went "Nah, we're good; just let 'em do whatever, we'll face 'em in pitched battles instead". Something that didn't work out to well for M'Quve. Or Dozle. Or Gihren, though at least there's some argument there.
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Feb 19, 2022 04:54
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chiasaur11 posted:At least a few GM pilots were explicitly tank veterans. I know one of the White Dingos was, from memory. Yeah but the point of it is that it's still ultimately a relatively tiny amount getting priority. Now once the war moves to space you can bet they'll lower the requirements for who they consider worth the time retraining as a MS pilot but the odds are not in the favor of the average infantryman or tanker.
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Feb 19, 2022 10:52
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According to Lydo Wolf's backstory, mobile suit pilots seem to have been pulled mostly from fighter pilots. To the point that there appears to be a light armor gm to more closely approximate the handling of a fighter.
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Feb 19, 2022 12:20
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tsob posted:Char doesn't have orders not to engage the White Base, but once he's demoted for not protecting Garma, he does have orders to patrol the African coast and deliberately goes out of his way to chase the White Base across the Atlantic despite those orders. It works out, since he finds Jaburo because of it, but he still did it mostly for petty, personal reasons rather than because of any grand plan to expose Jaburo. He doesn't even originally care about the White Base either, since it's just a thing he stumbled across on return from someplace else, and decided to pursue since he figured destroying or capturing the Federation's new weapons would earn him promotion and get him closer to the Zabis. Which is a questionable motive, but at the end of the day, Zeon kind of had to try and confront the Federation's new weapons. It'd be even dumber if they went "Nah, we're good; just let 'em do whatever, we'll face 'em in pitched battles instead". Something that didn't work out to well for M'Quve. Or Dozle. Or Gihren, though at least there's some argument there. I mean, we've talked a few times in this thread about how Zeon kept feeding its best pilots and machines into the White Base wood chipper. The learning computer helped, but the Federation had already been producing the GMs before they analyzed the Gundam's combat data. They'd have rolled GMs off the lines whether or not White Base survived. Calling it a Trojan Horse was a bit of a misnomer. It was more of a Red Herring, as far as Zeon's strategic goals were concerned.
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Feb 19, 2022 17:33
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Consider also that its shown to be a terrifying force in small engagements prior to Jaburo, but in mass battles like Solomon and A Baoa Qu the White Base's impact was much smaller on the overall battle (aside from Sleggar Kamikaze'ing Big Zam anyway).
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Feb 19, 2022 17:36
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https://twitter.com/gundam_ace1/status/1495005858492981253?t=7JZfpYEl_Xg_ndcBQhUrRg&s=19
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Feb 20, 2022 00:57
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https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1495529478759530497?s=20&t=NKLp7fL7r51_7SavAW3w4A
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Feb 21, 2022 00:02
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I'm getting some real 40K Tau vibes from that first picture. It looks like Shadowsun versus Farsight.
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Feb 21, 2022 00:14
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its especially tragic because a minor paint job to the face would have made it as much a gundam as turn-a was
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Feb 21, 2022 00:16
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Stairmaster posted:its especially tragic because a minor paint job to the face would have made it as much a gundam as turn-a was Not quite. The Turn A had more humanoid proportions. That said, it does look more like a conventional Gundam than the first Guision. Now there's a weird Gundam for you.
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Feb 21, 2022 00:20
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chiasaur11 posted:Not quite. The Turn A had more humanoid proportions. TBF, that was basically just the broken fragments of a Gundam stuffed into a gigantic lump of armour, guns, and thrusters. It wasn't really supposed to look like that.
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Feb 21, 2022 02:30
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The Gusion actually looks reasonably Gundam if you can get past the paint job, but it's a Gundam in a loving ton of armor over its main frame. You can see the arms/knees/elbows of the basic Frame, it is just the Brewers's resources kinda sucked and so their basic concept was "strap a billion pieces of armor and thrusters to the Gundam frame and let its raw defensive power do the job" It's basically something akin to FAZZ just with a helmet on. (and the helmet, notably, would probably look a lot more Gundam with a standard paintjob.)
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Feb 21, 2022 02:53
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ImpAtom posted:The Gusion actually looks reasonably Gundam if you can get past the paint job, but it's a Gundam in a loving ton of armor over its main frame. You can see the arms/knees/elbows of the basic Frame, it is just the Brewers's resources kinda sucked and so their basic concept was "strap a billion pieces of armor and thrusters to the Gundam frame and let its raw defensive power do the job" It's basically something akin to FAZZ just with a helmet on. (and the helmet, notably, would probably look a lot more Gundam with a standard paintjob.) Another important detail is that the limbs are actually separate from the torso of the Gundam Frame (which is one reason why the suit is so incredibly broad) and it lacks any leg frame parts below the knee. It really is just a few scattered parts of a Gundam integrated into a greater whole.
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Feb 21, 2022 03:40
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Stairmaster posted:https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1495529478759530497?s=20&t=NKLp7fL7r51_7SavAW3w4A That's clearly a Gundam, you can see the v-fin. I joke, but the white one isn't that far out. The shoulder things for example, theres a whole lineage of Mobile Suits from Zeta on that have two big flat shoulder thruster spike things on the back. The Rick Dias, springs to mind as an example. Some of the shapes and lines remind me of Gyoubu's stuff. And since Gyoubu is doing late UC designs in Moon Gundam, it's easy to see a pathway to something like that being an actual Gundam that got rolled out sometime in between Unicorn and Victory
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Feb 21, 2022 04:19
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Gundams tend to be more blocky but as a zeonic/post-zeonic design it absolutely could fit in world.
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Feb 21, 2022 04:26
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also the tallgeese famously has big shoulder thrusterschiasaur11 posted:Not quite. The Turn A had more humanoid proportions. if you color in the pupils and make the v fin gold you got a gundam friend
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Feb 21, 2022 04:27
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Stairmaster posted:also the tallgeese famously has big shoulder thrusters For some reason this makes me imagine some random Zeon engineer going and painting gold V's on Zaku heads and calling them Gundams (even though OYW V-fins were white don't think about the joke too hard).
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Feb 21, 2022 08:47
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Stairmaster posted:https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1495529478759530497?s=20&t=NKLp7fL7r51_7SavAW3w4A that things dope af
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Feb 21, 2022 09:41
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I assume this is where I bring up the G-Lucifer and litigate whether it's a Gundam or not (it is).
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Feb 21, 2022 20:30
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The G stands for Gundam.
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Feb 21, 2022 20:37
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It isn't.
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Feb 21, 2022 20:42
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Hyaku shiki not a Gundam FAZZ not a Gundam G-Self not a Gundam ZII not a Gundam re-Gz not a Gundam Setsuna F Seiei a Gundam (metaphorically) Mika Lastname a Gundam (spiritually)
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Feb 21, 2022 20:45
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https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1495762396832739331?t=S4e02Nu8YVz6LnTF_BlMBw&s=19
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Feb 21, 2022 20:57
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Gaius Marius posted:Hyaku shiki not a Gundam Mikazuki Augus is not a Gundam, because if he was the Gundam, Atra wouldn't have had a threesome, and the nicest person in the Post Disaster era deserves to achieve her dreams. (Ein Dalton, meanwhile, is a Gundam.)
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Feb 21, 2022 21:03
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Warmachine posted:I mean, we've talked a few times in this thread about how Zeon kept feeding its best pilots and machines into the White Base wood chipper. The learning computer helped, but the Federation had already been producing the GMs before they analyzed the Gundam's combat data. They'd have rolled GMs off the lines whether or not White Base survived. What was the alternative, exactly? Send out an order to all troops to not engage the White Base and/or the Gundam? Which might just be the most demoralizing thing Zeon could do, honestly. At what point do you send that order out? After Char's first defeat, outside Side 7? His fourth above the atmosphere? When Garma fails at some point? I'm kind of curious what difference you think it'd make too, because the White Base would have presumably traipsed through Zeon territory, or even avoided it altogether to arrive at Jaburo earlier but it'd still fight at Odessa and Jaburo (which means bye-bye Black Tri-Stars, presumably), and it'd still end up engaging at Solomon and A Baoa Qu against Dozle. If Amuro isn't in a pissing contest with Char then Ral might live, but Lalah would probably never engage in the war since Char seemed to pull her in purely to help him defeat the Gundam and Char himself would probably never awaken as a Newtype either. So the whole thing comes out as a wash, at least as far as Amuro and Char are concerned. The GM still gets developed and deployed though, so Zeon is still probably on the backfoot anyway. It's also not like Zeon were in the habit of sending many units after the Gundam or the White Base anyway. Char was initially engaging the White Base just because he had come across it on his way back to Side 3, then decides to pursue it to help increase his profile so he can become more famous and rise up the ranks to meet more of the Zabis in person. After which he starts getting personally invested in defeating the RX-78-2 for the sake of his own pride. Garma only really ever cares about engaging them for pride, rather than out of any patriotism or any martial value. M'Quve only engages them because the White Base comes into his territory around Odessa. The Black Tri-Stars only engage the Gundam because Kycilia orders them to support M'Quve, and the White Base is at Odessa. Conscon and then M'Quve engage the White Base to show up Char, by defeating something that had evaded him, Challia Bull is killed while testing the Braw Bro, Dozle is killed while leading at Solomon, and doesn't indicate one iota of concern about either the Gundam or White Base until Amuro engages him etc. Ramba Ral and maayyyybe Lalah are about the only ones who are sent after the Gundam and/or the White Base for purely military reasons, and even Lalah is almost certainly just obeying an order motivated by Char's pettiness and not any strategic or tactically sound reasoning while Ral is sent out specifically to get revenge for Garma's death. It's a military order, but it's not really based on any kind of military value.
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Feb 21, 2022 21:18
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tsob posted:What was the alternative, exactly? Send out an order to all troops to not engage the White Base and/or the Gundam? Which might just be the most demoralizing thing Zeon could do, honestly. At what point do you send that order out? After Char's first defeat, outside Side 7? His fourth above the atmosphere? When Garma fails at some point? I'm kind of curious what difference you think it'd make too, because the White Base would have presumably traipsed through Zeon territory, or even avoided it altogether to arrive at Jaburo earlier but it'd still fight at Odessa and Jaburo (which means bye-bye Black Tri-Stars, presumably), and it'd still end up engaging at Solomon and A Baoa Qu against Dozle. "Do not engage the Gundam unless mission critical", presumably. It encourages keeping distance and trying to achieve other objectives, while the offer of a two rank promotion and a ticket home means people will charge the Gundam and get killed without achieving anything.
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Feb 21, 2022 21:36
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white base was exactly important enough to warrant attacking it with small units every episode. no more, no less.
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Feb 21, 2022 21:39
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chiasaur11 posted:"Do not engage the Gundam unless mission critical", presumably. It encourages keeping distance and trying to achieve other objectives, while the offer of a two rank promotion and a ticket home means people will charge the Gundam and get killed without achieving anything. "So we're just supposed to let it wander through our territory unmolested? I though we were winning this war? That we had the superior equipment, and pilots?"  Also, I'm pretty sure only Ramba and his men had an offer of promotion if they defeated the Gundam. Denim wanted to defeat it for the sake of promotion, but purely because he saw how quickly Char rose in the ranks, and not because of any actual directive. Char, Garma etc were just doing it for their own ends, and could order those under them to engage regardless of rewards.
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Feb 21, 2022 21:50
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:white base was exactly important enough to warrant attacking it with small units every episode. no more, no less. White Base is the rock of the eternal shore, crash against it and be broken.
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Feb 21, 2022 21:56
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Having the firepower of a Magellan Destroyer in a compact package that can skim along at surface height in atmosphere would be pretty terrifying
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Feb 21, 2022 22:01
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tsob posted:"So we're just supposed to let it wander through our territory unmolested? I though we were winning this war? That we had the superior equipment, and pilots?" If it was only Ramba, then Time Be Still wouldn't exist. There was a general issue bounty on Amuro's head. And command saying "just leave this one alone, there's a plan" probably wouldn't look too bad if Amuro wasn't mulching all their dudes. Could be even taken as Zeon using the White Base to get their own Trojan Horse to Jaburo, assuming they encouraged the right rumors.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:25
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