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Anti imperialism is when you do nothing about imperialist countries rolling over their neighbours because you don't live there E: worst snipe  Here's my cat begging for her dinner a full hour early, the little poo poo Dabir fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 15:43
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Bit devil's advocate and I'm not even sure how much I buy it myself, but if Putin plans to annex breakaway regions of Ukraine that overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia anyway, what exactly is the big deal? Self determination and all that.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:45
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Dabir posted:Anti imperialism is when you do nothing about imperialist countries rolling over their neighbours because you don't live there if the anti imperialists were in charge there wouldn't be any sanctionable assets because the russian money in London has always been a priority of the uk left you want the uk to throw its admirals at the russian army? I'm up for it but I'm not sure it'd help. maybe send the entire met over there e; an excellent cat
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Feb 22, 2022 15:46
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I thought the UK had stuffed Ukraine full of trainers etc https://twitter.com/aceplym/status/1496132963335122946
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Feb 22, 2022 15:47
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I just think it is a bit cavalier to suggest that it is our prerogative to start funnelling arms into a country and potentially cause the breakdown of their society by encouraging the formation of armed resistance groups, in the hopes that some of them will get killed in a way that makes russia's life more difficult. I especially am skeptical of the UK's ability to do that in a way that doesn't turn it into just a proxy war.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:48
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ThomasPaine posted:Bit devil's advocate and I'm not even sure how much I buy it myself, but if Putin plans to annex breakaway regions of Ukraine that overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia anyway, what exactly is the big deal? Self determination and all that. The issue is that Russia's spent the past decade at least funding these separatist movements and pushing them as hard as possible. It's like saying "If the UK suddenly wants to leave the EU, what's the problem" without giving any thought to where that sentiment came from. E: Not saying Russia was responsible for Brexit. I'm sure they're not unhappy to see it and might have chucked some cash in its direction, but home grown disaster capitalists and lunatics were responsible for Brexit. Dabir fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 15:48
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And if he can write this well with one hand imagine what he can do with two!
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Feb 22, 2022 15:52
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ThomasPaine posted:Bit devil's advocate and I'm not even sure how much I buy it myself, but if Putin plans to annex breakaway regions of Ukraine that overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia anyway, what exactly is the big deal? Self determination and all that. Is there actually any genuine support for this besides the obvious astroturfing? It be a valid point sure, but I haven't seen anyone suggest that it's actually the case. People fleeing those regions suggests they're not too keen to welcome their new overlords.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:52
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Oh that dastardly Corbyn, I hear he went into his local library and spat on all the Primo Levi books! Also been looking for this laugh riot for a while: https://twitter.com/robw1972/status/1496129307466510343
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Feb 22, 2022 15:53
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Well, he does have Leukemia, so... yeah? (the person posting the Tweet probably didn't know that)
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Feb 22, 2022 15:53
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OwlFancier posted:I just think it is a bit cavalier to suggest that it is our prerogative to start funnelling arms into a country and potentially cause the breakdown of their society by encouraging the formation of armed resistance groups, in the hopes that some of them will get killed in a way that makes russia's life more difficult. It's already a proxy war since Ukraine's military is funded by the US and Ukraine's separatist movements are funded by Russia and in some situations are actual serving Russian soldiers. All we've really seen recently is an increase of scale - this isn't the first time Russia's put troops into Ukrainian territory, but it sure appears to be the most troops and materiel they've committed.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:54
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Dabir posted:The issue is that Russia's spent the past decade at least funding these separatist movements and pushing them as hard as possible. It's like saying "If the UK suddenly wants to leave the EU, what's the problem" without giving any thought to where that sentiment came from. I am once again asking you to remember if anything happened a decade ago that might have made russia abandon hopes of diplomatic ties with ukraine
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Feb 22, 2022 15:56
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The referendum that the people of Eastern Ukraine were offered was "Do you want to a) be a part of Russia or b) *deliberately obscured reference to historical document that means existing as an independent republic*" Remaining a part of Ukraine literally wasn't an option. So, I think anyone could excused for being suspicious about the actual level of enthusiasm for independence in the region.OwlFancier posted:I just think it is a bit cavalier to suggest that it is our prerogative to start funnelling arms into a country and potentially cause the breakdown of their society by encouraging the formation of armed resistance groups, in the hopes that some of them will get killed in a way that makes russia's life more difficult. America's "life being more difficult" (lots of soldiers dying in horrible ways and people at home hearing all about it) was what turned the American public against Vietnam. At this point, if Putin is committed to invading, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, but if it goes badly enough it might make him think again about the next one.
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Feb 22, 2022 15:58
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Dabir posted:Russia does have a much bigger military but they have to keep most of it committed to other things, like defending the rest of their enormous borders. Ukraine gets to use all of theirs. Russia has more manpower, can't do much about that, but the equipment difference where they really blow Ukraine out of the water, and you can make up that difference pretty effectively if you're smart about what you send. An anti tank missile costs much less than a tank, for instance. Ukraine also has to defend all of that long, long border it has with Russia and Belarus. The attacker always has it easier, as they can decide where to actually concentrate the attack.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:00
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It's wild to me that Russia and Belarus haven't united already, it seems like something both sides keep flirting with each other about but they never seal the deal.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:03
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rent. free.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:04
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Please do not kick back during an anal adventure, that's how knees get broken. #susanalbumparty
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Feb 22, 2022 16:05
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Dabir posted:America's "life being more difficult" (lots of soldiers dying in horrible ways and people at home hearing all about it) was what turned the American public against Vietnam. At this point, if Putin is committed to invading, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, but if it goes badly enough it might make him think again about the next one. Which, still, is the US and UK deciding that Ukranians should be made to fight and die for what the US and UK thinks is preferable, even in the best case scenario that's iffy to me, and the practical reality is likely to be far worse because no country on this earth does things without trying to get something out of it themselves.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:06
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Julio Cruz posted:rent. free. https://twitter.com/CeilNoyle/status/1496042238387884033
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Feb 22, 2022 16:08
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Dabir posted:The issue is that Russia's spent the past decade at least funding these separatist movements and pushing them as hard as possible. It's like saying "If the UK suddenly wants to leave the EU, what's the problem" without giving any thought to where that sentiment came from. I see the point you're getting at but I'm not sure that's a good comparison to support it, since Brexit went ahead and has been more or less accepted as a legitimate democratic decision regardless of how much misinformation, lying and shady money was involved in getting to that decision.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:13
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not sure why im posting this in this thread but... seems like a bit of forced (?) error from putin tbh, trading that pipeline, deeper economic integration with europe and splitting the nato bloc for what? two separatist provinces that were already under russian control de facto and a shot at maybe getting involved in a quagmire border war over wider Ukraine feels like he's still hurting domestically over the economy and internationally over armenia and as much worried about deepening chinese-turkish ties in the stans on his southern border now that the US has pulled out of it's bulwark in afghan i would expect him to claim all of Donetsk and Luhansk for soft power projection but stop at the line of actual control and prepare the processes for another slice of the salami in a few months/years. if he does push into the Ukrainians hard now then you do have to revise some of the assumptions about how decisions are being taken on the Russian side currently he's done his best mad dog impression to rattle the competition in the west and south, he's got some info about the kind of sanctions the west has prepped and their unity and resolve to enforce them and he's made the ground reality in the separatist areas de jure. on the flip side if he wasn't expecting to loose NS2 maybe he now has to gain more from this excursion to offset it, difficult to see what marching to Kyiv gets him though Rustybear fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 16:13
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ThomasPaine posted:Bit devil's advocate and I'm not even sure how much I buy it myself, but if Putin plans to annex breakaway regions of Ukraine that overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia anyway, what exactly is the big deal? Self determination and all that. Because besides Crimea, no other region had a majority wanting to join Russia, until some guys came over the border and shot people who suggested otherwise.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:13
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ThomasPaine posted:It's wild to me that Russia and Belarus haven't united already, it seems like something both sides keep flirting with each other about but they never seal the deal. As I understand it the current status quo somewhat benefits both sides. Russia has a buffer state that can hold itself out as a "neutral" party when convenient, but at the same time adds to Russia's prestige (if you take the view that a great power has to have a sphere of influence, you need nominally indpendent countries doing your bidding as a prerequisite to be one) and is one of the few friends Russia actually has in the world. On the other hand, Belarus, for all its many, many, many faults actually managed to keep most of its industries under state control and pretty much singularly avoided the neoliberal shock therapy that was visited upon the rest of the former Eastern Bloc. In the event of actual unity, those industries would likely be privatised and end up in the hands of the russian oligarchs, rather than in the pockets of influential Belarussians.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:16
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ThomasPaine posted:It's wild to me that Russia and Belarus haven't united already, it seems like something both sides keep flirting with each other about but they never seal the deal. belarus is very politically fragile as all dictatorships are and a transition of power creates space for dissidents to, for example, rally people around the nationalist cause. why upset the apple cart when the current situation is perfectly functional
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Feb 22, 2022 16:20
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OwlFancier posted:There is also a difference between a popular insurgency and a professional army, though. And I'm not sure that trying to create and arm the former in Ukraine is necessarily very non-imperialist? In a world with empires, one of the most basic requirements for an independent nation to stay independent is for it to successfully balance the interests and influence of rival empires. When an empire invades, your best bet at repelling them is generally by persuading one of their rivals that it's in their self-interest to fund, equip, and otherwise assist you against your occupiers. It's far from morally ideal, but it's how successful anti-imperialism usually works in the real world - there's a reason the flag of Mozambique has a Kalashnikov on it. Anti-imperialist international endeavours usually involve providing the same aid with fewer strings attached, as (for example) Cuba did in the Angolan/South African Bush War.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:20
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Darth Walrus posted:there's a reason the flag of Mozambique has a Kalashnikov on it
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Feb 22, 2022 16:24
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I still really don't see a functional difference between throwing guns and agitation into a country and throwing troops into it other than that you can sell the guns and make money off it and also get the foreigners to die instead of people who might upset your electoral prospects. If you want something done you should use your own army to do it, IMO. And if you don't want to use your own army to do it you probably shouldn't be expecting other people to do it for you.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:30
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https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1496089431803105284 trying to think of a comment to make about this exchange, but nope, nothing is coming to mind
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Feb 22, 2022 16:37
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"milk wanker"
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Feb 22, 2022 16:40
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Dabir posted:The referendum that the people of Eastern Ukraine were offered was "Do you want to a) be a part of Russia or b) *deliberately obscured reference to historical document that means existing as an independent republic*" Remaining a part of Ukraine literally wasn't an option. So, I think anyone could excused for being suspicious about the actual level of enthusiasm for independence in the region. They should have just asked "Should Ukraine be part of Russia?" and ask Farage to run the campaign. 52% will vote yes.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:42
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Apraxin posted:https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1496089431803105284
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Feb 22, 2022 16:46
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OwlFancier posted:Which, still, is the US and UK deciding that Ukranians should be made to fight and die for what the US and UK thinks is preferable, even in the best case scenario that's iffy to me, and the practical reality is likely to be far worse because no country on this earth does things without trying to get something out of it themselves. They're being invaded. They're already fighting and dying. Your argument only works if we were pointing them at some other country and going "right, off you go then".
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Feb 22, 2022 16:46
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Gort posted:It's already a proxy war since Ukraine's military is funded by the US and Ukraine's separatist movements are funded by Russia and in some situations are actual serving Russian soldiers. This pot of stew was boiling away from 2014-15 and then simmered until 2022 when Putin brought it to the boil again, it's a long term conflict. 
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Feb 22, 2022 16:51
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Dabir posted:
Don't give in or you will end up in a mog doom spiral like me where my cat now tries his luck for breakfast at 4am 
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Feb 22, 2022 16:54
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OwlFancier posted:I still really don't see a functional difference between throwing guns and agitation into a country and throwing troops into it other than that you can sell the guns and make money off it and also get the foreigners to die instead of people who might upset your electoral prospects. It's a simple question of power and agency. You can control the weapons in your own hands, choosing whether and how you use them to fight and what you use them to fight for. You can't control an occupying army. Gifting or selling weapons cedes some degree of power and agency, while sending in the troops keeps it entirely in your hands. That is, among other things, quite important for making sure that your 'resistance movement' shares the interests of the people it's supposedly defending against its occupiers, rather than simply serving as a second colonial entity within the country. That may sound like a very low bar, but it's a bar that imported foreign troops consistently fail to meet when defending against an invasion.
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Feb 22, 2022 16:54
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Dabir posted:They're being invaded. They're already fighting and dying. Your argument only works if we were pointing them at some other country and going "right, off you go then". If Russia was nazi germany and was planning to start massacring the population then that might be the case, but the question is surely more whether or not it is better to lose the war (and professional militaries usually stop fighting once they lose) or whether it is better for the west to try and provoke and arm a militia to engage in a protracted fight at great cost to the people who live there. To prolong the war in the hopes of achieving their preferred end goal which they have not proven especially good at doing in recent history. Again if you asked me whether in the case of a hypothetical invasion of the UK, whether or not I would rather the UK just lost or got turned into a perpetual warzone for the entertainment of US arms manufacturers, I think i would probably pick the former to be honest.
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Feb 22, 2022 17:04
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On this topic, and given Putin's recent swipe at Lenin, this quote seems relevant: https://twitter.com/danfinn95/status/1495873695084077058?s=21
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Feb 22, 2022 17:21
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Pistol_Pete posted:Well, he does have Leukemia, so... yeah? Nice to get some good news for a change.
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Feb 22, 2022 17:27
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oh hey ukmt, i forgot to update my bookmarks for february, did i miss anything interesting this month
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Feb 22, 2022 17:42
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You might have missed angela "robocop" rayner demanding that the police shoot more people, that was pretty good.
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