|
Mirello posted:lol at saying morgana wasn't weirdly horny. teddie was like a child with no knowledge of human interaction imo. Wait, who thinks the festival was cringe? I've been hearing P4 hate since I played the game but I haven't heard this one. Also right there with you about Mystery Food X. At least the first time it's legit funny with Yosuke and Yu temporarily dying. The voice-actors pull it off, if you like.
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:01 |
|
|
You could have just said off the bat you loved playing P4 when you were younger and saved yourself (and everyone else) the trouble of having to rationalize why you like it better. anakha fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Feb 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
P4's cast is cringe as gently caress. And golden made it so much worse. That concert poo poo man, my skin was crawling from second hand embarrassment
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:23
|
|
|
P4 is good and the cast is the only one in modern Persona with any goddamn chemistry at all
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:24
|
|
|
Arist posted:P4 is good and the cast is the only one in modern Persona with any goddamn chemistry at all lol
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:25
|
|
|
Arist posted:P4 is good and the cast is the only one in modern Persona with any goddamn chemistry at all This, above all else, was my problem with P5. With P3 I liked individual characters even as SEES as a whole was a dumpster fire of antagonism. P4 then gave us a cast of friends where it all clicked and felt believable. I think this is the source of the game's popularity. P5 seemed to want to recapture that but just...couldn't. The result was you got halfhearted attempts at the end of arcs like the infamous pancakes scene. But nobody ever felt particularly close and the only party member I genuinely liked was Haru. Which, given how late she's introduced in a game like this, is more of a con than a pro. Nothing beats that first time going through Golden and hearing Snowflakes as you talk to everyone..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFTbH43n77Q (this is also why P4 and P2IS are my fave Persona games, they capture this feeling of friendship better than any of the others)
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:33
|
|
|
I used to agree with that mindset, then I finished Strikers and I feel that put the P5 crew above P4's finally.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 17:45
|
|
|
Teddie is overly horny but he also makes Yosuke's life a living hell so it's impossible to say if he's bad or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 18:07
|
|
|
I know I implied I think P5's cast chemistry is bad, but I like the cast, the problem is mainly that they don't get a lot of time to hang out in that game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
anakha posted:I used to agree with that mindset, then I finished Strikers and I feel that put the P5 crew above P4's finally. Strikers nails the chemistry of the cast. They are largely strangers to each other in vanilla/royal and were getting to know eachother. But they got the feeling of them being a team and actual friends by Strikers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 18:11
|
|
|
Arist posted:I know I implied I think P5's cast chemistry is bad, but I like the cast, the problem is mainly that they don't get a lot of time to hang out in that game. That's exactly my issue with P5; Strikers proved that when they do get the chance, they're fantastic and fun, but P5 gives them so little to work with.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
I think the P5 cast has better chemistry than P4’s because they’re all social outcasts in one way or another and, by Strikers, have bonded into legitimate life long friends.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
So we’re agreed, Strikers is the best Persona game
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 19:18
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:So we’re agreed, Strikers is the best Persona game I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers!
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2022 19:23
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:So we’re agreed, Strikers is the best Persona game We need to get Platinum to do the combat for the next one
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 09:00
|
|
|
gently caress that, let Platinum make a Raidou Kuzunoha game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 09:17
|
|
|
anakha posted:You could have just said off the bat you loved playing P4 when you were younger and saved yourself (and everyone else) the trouble of having to rationalize why you like it better. yes god forbid people in a thread have to discuss one of the games the thread is about. also, p4 is widely considered one of the best jrpgs of all time, and it will hold on to that title no matter what some haters believe lol. I guess if I agree with any critique of p4, it's that it is inherently conservative (I don't mean that politically, I mean as not changing things) as the conclusion to almost every s link is to be happy as you are. I dunno, I just think that, speaking personally, that's not so bad. A lot of suffering is over people's confusion over who they are and how they are perceived by others. Naoto isn't trans, but believes that women can't be perceived as competent, especially at police work. Kanji isn't gay/bi (or maybe he is, it honestly doesn't matter) but he's worried about how others perceive him due to his hobbies, which causes him to lash out and suffer. Be happy with your lot in life isn't an inherently bad message. as opposed to p5, which is literally premised as a game where you rise up in revolution, but it's unwillingness to make any actual critique of society totally hamstrings it from saying something meaningful. Since the stakes are much higher, the fact that the story is so crappy really leads it astray. And I agree with others in the thread that they attempted to emulate the closeness dynamics of the group in P4, but failed. I enjoyed them a lot in p5S, but stopped playing halfway through as the gameplay wasn't my cup of tea. Talking about creepiness, the fact that the game shifts from kamoshida being a sexual predator, to immediately making a "funny" situation of Yusuke pressuring ann to do something she doesn't want to do is very odd. And that honestly made me dislike Yusuke throughout much more than teddy or morgana. It's always been odd to me the way that fans just forgive that. jeeze from the way people talk about teddy you'd think he's a sex monster, rather than someone who misunderstood "score" once or twice. I think that P5 gets a lot of kudos from it's gameplay being fantastic and a great beginning, but the middle and ending are pretty mediocre imo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 10:18
|
|
|
Yeah, Yusuke's introduction is super weird and out-of-character considering how he acts for the rest of the game and probably shouldn't have been done the way it was, especially right after the chapter about a literal sex abuser. But I thought the visual gag where Ann showed up to Yusuke's studio dressed in like fifty layers was actually funny.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 10:25
|
|
|
Arist posted:I know I implied I think P5's cast chemistry is bad, but I like the cast, the problem is mainly that they don't get a lot of time to hang out in that game. That and due to the nature of not having faced their shadows the P5 cast vary from their worst selves to their best selves across their social links and the writers of the game couldn't tell where they'd be with enough deftness and you can e.g. have Ryuji at rank 10 in his confidant and still behave as he did at the start in the cutscenes. Royal does better than base P5 here, with a couple of extra events and the Showtimes almost (but only almost) showing at least some of them them as friends without Joker being there. For example Makoto and Haru both are clearly pro wrestling fans which is why their showtime is pro wrestling - and it just needed two or three more lines to have them a couple of times go to watch a pro wrestling show together, with bringing up the showtime referencing what they saw last night. And there to be a couple of days when Morgana went to visit Haru and thus wasn't there after that month would have worked wonders. Mirello posted:yes god forbid people in a thread have to discuss one of the games the thread is about. also, p4 is widely considered one of the best jrpgs of all time, and it will hold on to that title no matter what some haters believe lol. If half the social links had been that way I'd have had no problem there. Several of the social links could easily have gone that way. But (with the exception of Teddie) when 100% of the social links are that way it becomes creepy and oppressive. "Be happy with your lot in life" is one message "Everyone should be happy with their lot in life and the only real problem is that some people aren't" is a problem. It's not that the story is told. It's that the story is told without more than superficial variation across just about every social link other than Adachi who's the example of someone who refuses to bend the knee to society's preordained place that's the problem. quote:as opposed to p5, which is literally premised as a game where you rise up in revolution, but it's unwillingness to make any actual critique of society totally hamstrings it from saying something meaningful. Here's something lost in non-translation (and P5 does not have good translation). The first is that Japan has an over 99% conviction rate, and they treat convictions as the "king of evidence" while barely regulating how they are obtained to the point that a prosecutor literally having confessed to threatening to kill a suspect is merely a firing offence. Persona 5 puts the player in the role of someone being interrogated by the police and a prosecutor in a situation where the police are shown to do whatever they want and there's no recourse, and to have been convicted despite doing nothing wrong. It is a clear and specific criticism of a known part of Japanese society. The other is that Japan is a very conformist society and the people picked as protagonists for the Phantom Thieves visibly aren't. Persona 5 has clear and actual critiques to make of the society it was written in and for. That those aren't applicable to your society is because you live in a different society to the one it was critiquing. quote:Talking about creepiness, the fact that the game shifts from kamoshida being a sexual predator, to immediately making a "funny" situation of Yusuke pressuring ann to do something she doesn't want to do is very odd. And that honestly made me dislike Yusuke throughout much more than teddy or morgana. It's always been odd to me the way that fans just forgive that. jeeze from the way people talk about teddy you'd think he's a sex monster, rather than someone who misunderstood "score" once or twice. Once or twice would have been fine. A dozen times after being told to cut it out almost as often is the act of someone who enjoys that it makes other people uncomfortable and chooses to keep doing it. It's the doubling down that's the problem. But you're bringing up a valid issue with P5 and a part of the storytelling there. The valid issue is that there are two moments in P5 where I considered throwing my controller. Ryuji pressuring Ann to do that and Joker joining in was one of two moments where I nearly threw my controller across the room (the other being beating up Ryuji and leaving him there which felt like left over P4 "humour"). The second is that when you meet them every single one of the Persona 4 and 5 allies are obnoxious. In P4 they Face Their Shadows and everything is peachy (never mind e.g. how physically abusive Chie is implied to be to Yosuke before that). In P5 change takes more time. Yes, Yuske is a problem when you meet him and he's caught in a trap with one jaw being internal and the other the authority figure. So is e.g. Narcoto. Futaba's a blackmailing stalker. Every single one of them starts off at a very low place and every single one of them changes in a relatively reasonable way in both P4 and P5. Or to sum up, do I believe that by the end of Persona 5 Yuske would try to pressure someone hard into nude modelling? No. He's learned far more about art and people and how they inter-relate than to want to do that and it's a single act where he was at his lowest. Do I believe that if he thought he could find an excuse Teddie would find another way to deliberately make people, especially women, uncomfortable? Yes. Absolutely. It is not a single act that's otherwise out of character. It is his character.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 11:28
|
|
|
Mirello posted:yes god forbid people in a thread have to discuss one of the games the thread is about. Handwaving away Teddie's creepiness with "I found it funny when I first played through the game" was what prompted my response. neonchameleon posted:Persona 5 has clear and actual critiques to make of the society it was written in and for. That those aren't applicable to your society is because you live in a different society to the one it was critiquing. P5 being overly ambitious with the story it wanted to tell (IMO) and ending it the way Atlus did in the base game is what prompts all the storyline criticism. I think they did overreach themselves with the main story (might have also been due to the overall direction of the game changing after the 2011 quake) but taking the storyline in a more introspective direction in Royal was for me a great call.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 12:49
|
|
|
Atlus had a decent idea in Teddie. He's a Shadow, who's mentally a child, that happened to hear these teens say something horny once. He's parroting what he heard without any idea what it's about, and the Investigation Team just rolls their eyes and lets him do it because it's not like he'll ever interact with other people, right? The problem is that once he forms a body as a teenage boy, no one ever takes him aside to teach him all about social cues and why Teddie should stop going on about scoring all the drat time. Not even Teddie's beloved sensei bites the bullet to give him the awkward talk, despite there being space to do it as part of Teddie's social link. You can even tie it as part of Teddie's journey about learning to become more human. It's baffling how Atlus essentially decided to stop writing Teddie in the middle of his character arc. YaketySass posted:Teddie is worse than Morgana on average but he's also basically a child experience-wise. Morgana is someone who's ostensibly more mature and more accustomed to human society so him acting like a tool or a horndog is something you're less willing to forgive. What's really bizarre about Morgana being a constant simp toward Ann is that he's also supposed to be the embodiment of human hope or something.  NikkolasKing posted:Wait, who thinks the festival was cringe? I've been hearing P4 hate since I played the game but I haven't heard this one. I think it's cringe as hell. Not long after Naoto's dungeon where the cast learns her issues with how she's perceived over her gender, Naoto gets forced to participate in a beauty pageant that basically announces she's a girl to the student body. It's also another section to put down Hanako and Kashiwagi over their weight/age. The crossdressing beauty pageant is even worse because it's an extended 'lol look at this man in a dress' joke, and it's awful how everybody laughs at Kanji's attempt when he was gung-ho about looking pretty. Not to mention that the 'punchline' of Teddie appearing in a dress and making the male students uncomfortable over how they find him hot feels like another gay panic joke.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 13:53
|
|
|
P4 is almost virulently heteronormative, in a way P3 with it's "That lady is really a man!" style transpanic and P5 with it's "Rapey gay men" 'gags' don't manage to be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 14:22
|
|
|
amigolupus posted:Atlus had a decent idea in Teddie. He's a Shadow, who's mentally a child, that happened to hear these teens say something horny once. He's parroting what he heard without any idea what it's about, and the Investigation Team just rolls their eyes and lets him do it because it's not like he'll ever interact with other people, right? The problem is that once he forms a body as a teenage boy, no one ever takes him aside to teach him all about social cues and why Teddie should stop going on about scoring all the drat time. Not even Teddie's beloved sensei bites the bullet to give him the awkward talk, despite there being space to do it as part of Teddie's social link. You can even tie it as part of Teddie's journey about learning to become more human. Oh I read festival as when the girls were in the kimonos and you can go on a date with Rise or whoever you have romanced up to this point. I got my labels and ideas mixed up, my bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 14:29
|
|
|
every single time i have to hear "you're so beautiful lady ann" i want to kill morgana
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 14:56
|
|
|
Polderjoch posted:Hanako and Kashiwagi both seem to purely exist to take the piss at fat people and older unmarried women since, of course, they're both the only ones like those in the game and the game never portrays them anywhere close to positively Kashiwagi is genuinely creepy and gross though because she's trying to hit on the high school boys. The problem is that it's implied the only reason she doesn't succeed in her attempts is "she's on the wrong side of 40" and so clearly no man (or boy) could ever want a wrinkled old grandma like her. Hanako bugs me because they portray her as actually having a very positive self-image, but in a toxic way where she seems oblivious to the fact that everyone is going "she's a big ol' fat porker!" and acts arrogant and condescending towards other girls because she views them as not as beautiful as her. And it's made even worse with Ai's social link being "I used to be fat and everyone made fun of me and boys didn't like me because of it, but now I'm rich and thin and everyone loves me."
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 14:58
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:Kashiwagi is genuinely creepy and gross though because she's trying to hit on the high school boys. The problem is that it's implied the only reason she doesn't succeed in her attempts is "she's on the wrong side of 40" and so clearly no man (or boy) could ever want a wrinkled old grandma like her. Yeah which is what is part of the problem for me; Kashiwagi exists purely to be an incredibly creepy pastiche but practically every single negative they give of her is "old and single" which is what makes it so loving weird.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
Regarding Teddie, remember there's going to be a big difference of perception between someone who has only played vanilla P4, where his flirtation mostly remains on the innocent side, and people who played P4G and other spinoff titles where they went full "anime dirty old man" with him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 19:34
|
|
|
I don't recall Teddie having any stand out pervy moment during Golden-exclusive content. The moments I think people tend to hate most are PS2 stuff like stealing the girls' medical exams, and the swimsuit pageant.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2022 19:58
|
|
|
Polderjoch posted:Yeah which is what is part of the problem for me; Kashiwagi exists purely to be an incredibly creepy pastiche but practically every single negative they give of her is "old and single" which is what makes it so loving weird. yeah much better in p5 where with the benefit of 7 years of social progress we can gently caress the teacher/maid lol. Petiso posted:Regarding Teddie, remember there's going to be a big difference of perception between someone who has only played vanilla P4, where his flirtation mostly remains on the innocent side, and people who played P4G and other spinoff titles where they went full "anime dirty old man" with him. I agree with this. in standard p4 he's really fine. I never played any of the spin offs. for example, the guy above me talking about stealing medical exams? what? when does that happen? I literally have no memory at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 11:58
|
|
|
Mirello posted:I agree with this. in standard p4 he's really fine. I never played any of the spin offs. for example, the guy above me talking about stealing medical exams? what? when does that happen? I literally have no memory at all. I'm pretty sure that happens in base P4.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 12:13
|
|
|
It's shortly after Naoto joins the party. Someone, I think maybe Yosuke, says something about "Hey maybe using personas and going to the Shadow Realm all the time is having a negative effect on our health" so they all go to the hospital to get physical exams. After it's over, Teddie says he took all the results and says he'll read off all the girls' measurements. Rise says she's fine with it as her measurements are public knowledge (though they exaggerated her cup size), but Yukiko and Chie get upset, Teddie ignores them, and then reveals Naoto has the biggest boobs of all the girls. It's definitely in base P4 because I remember it and I never played Golden.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 13:35
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:It's shortly after Naoto joins the party. Someone, I think maybe Yosuke, says something about "Hey maybe using personas and going to the Shadow Realm all the time is having a negative effect on our health" so they all go to the hospital to get physical exams. After it's over, Teddie says he took all the results and says he'll read off all the girls' measurements. Rise says she's fine with it as her measurements are public knowledge (though they exaggerated her cup size), but Yukiko and Chie get upset, Teddie ignores them, and then reveals Naoto has the biggest boobs of all the girls. Why haven't you played P4G? My understanding is most consider it the absolutely definitive version. Or do you just not like P4? (like me with Royal where everyone says it greatly improves P5 but I didn't like P5 so why would I replay all of it just for an extra final act or whatever?)
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 13:47
|
|
|
I mean if you played P4 back on the PS2 you just might not have picked up Golden because you already played the base game. I only bought Royal when it dropped to like $20 in a Black Friday sale because I own and have played and beaten vanilla P5. Also Golden being Vita exclusive for like 8 years probably didn't help matters much. Maybe OP just didn't own a Vita and didn't feel like spending like $300 on one game. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 14:13
|
|
|
I own a Vita and I'm just now playing Golden. On Steam. I did play P3P, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 14:38
|
|
|
I already beat base P4 three times when Golden dropped and when I started it I realize that whatever Golden added wasn't enough to make me want to play it a fourth time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 14:44
|
|
|
Yeah I played P4 pretty soon after it released, I never owned a Vita, and when it came to Steam I was like eh I kinda don't want to play P4 again even if it is only 20 bucks, I enjoyed my time with the original and I have a shitload of games in my backlog I'd rather play instead.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 16:01
|
|
|
Mirello posted:yeah much better in p5 where with the benefit of 7 years of social progress we can gently caress the teacher/maid lol. I'm not saying p5 is better here since dating any of the adult women there is still weird as gently caress but kawakami at least has a character beyond "insulting stereotype".
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 18:04
|
|
|
P4G really added nothing of worth to P4. It's got a ton of problems but the story and what it was trying to accomplish was very much a complete work and it's additions are weird bolted-on nonsense and wasted space, not at all like P5 which was so far in the gutter that Royal's solid plot additions actually almost gave it some gravitas. neonchameleon posted:Persona 5 has clear and actual critiques to make of the society it was written in and for. That those aren't applicable to your society is because you live in a different society to the one it was critiquing. Nevermind that P5 only ever goes halfway with its critique even in a purely Japanese context, this particular take would have a lot more weight if P5's literary and aesthetic influences weren't so international and multicultural. Rockstar Massacre fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
P4G gave Mitsuo an 8-bit remix of I'll Face Myself and that alone was enough to justify it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 22:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:01 |
|
|
Far as I know, everyone prefers P4G's gameplay additions to original P4. Naoto apparently was just useless in the original. As for story additions, Saki's brother is a P4G thing, right? I liked that S Link and my impression was most people did as well. Marie is obviously a bit more controversial but I'm convinced the people who dislike her have always just been a vocal minority and nothing more. Speaking of Marie... Orcs and Ostriches posted:P4G gave Mitsuo an 8-bit remix of I'll Face Myself and that alone was enough to justify it. ...and amazing music that justifies Golden existing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Zv1qS7UhU This is one of the best dungeon themes in all of Persona, if not the absolute best. The dungeon itself sucks to be sure but I love this song and how they use her poems. Golden added many of the best songs in the franchise.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2022 22:33
|
|