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Tenebrais posted:Yeah, we definitely had the original character, at least when episodes were on TV when I was a kid. I'd never seen the stereotype in anything else though, so it's possible it just wasn't connected to anything offenseive for most of the British audience. Especially if the alternative was an Irish stereotype, which a lot of people would have taken offence to. I 100% thought it was her house when I was a kid, the stereotype was nowhere in my knowledge then, early 80s UK.
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Feb 21, 2022 17:14
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Woolie Wool posted:I remember playing The Stick of Truth and the whole scene with City Wok trying to ratfuck the new Mongolian restaurant was continuous I played that to the end because I ended up enjoying the gameplay, but I was constantly disappointed that every single joke was one I recognized from the show after I'd stopped watching it something like ten years prior. Also, yeah, blind spots about Asian racism. I still have friends who consider themselves very woke and liberal and constantly go to bad Asian accents for a "joke."
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Feb 21, 2022 17:16
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Tenebrais posted:Yeah, we definitely had the original character, at least when episodes were on TV when I was a kid. I'd never seen the stereotype in anything else though, so it's possible it just wasn't connected to anything offenseive for most of the British audience. Especially if the alternative was an Irish stereotype, which a lot of people would have taken offence to. When I was a kid in the late 80s/early 90s in the UK we had Song of the South on VHS. Mostly I remember finding all the live action bits really boring, all the songs really catchy and basically only watched it for the animated sequences. I distinctly remember realising/learning that it was set in America - before then 5-year old me had just assumed it was set in 'The Olden Days' in Britain and why wouldn't there be black people around then like there are now  . A sweet sort of utter ignorance. Even so I had none of the knowledge or context to pick up any of the problematic stuff - just a kindly old black dude with an awesome voice telling stories to a white kid who lives in a big house on a big farm - a really big farm. So big they need loads of workers to run it...We had the VHS edition of Dumbo too, which aside from the whole crows/roustabouts thing had the three Disney shorts at the end, including Three Orphan Kittens. This includes an 'Aunt' character that's basically a copy/paste of Mammy Two Shoes (same actress providing the voice, IIRC) and a doll that turns into a golliwog.... So yes, British audiences were much less sensitive to and about these specific forms of racism in the 1980s. The dubbed Irish maid version of Mammy Two Shoes would attracted much more notice and discomfort (i.e more than zero). E: HopperUK posted:I 100% thought it was her house when I was a kid, the stereotype was nowhere in my knowledge then, early 80s UK.  For both Tom & Jerry and Three Orphan Kittens - just a black woman baking a pie while happily singing to herself as the kittens sneak around her house...
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Feb 21, 2022 17:19
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BalloonFish posted:We had the VHS edition of Dumbo too, which aside from the whole crows/roustabouts thing had the three Disney shorts at the end, including Three Orphan Kittens. This includes an 'Aunt' character that's basically a copy/paste of Mammy Two Shoes (same actress providing the voice, IIRC) and a doll that turns into a golliwog.... Hell, Robertson's jams only officially retired their golliwog mascot in 20-loving-02.
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Feb 21, 2022 17:37
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1 posted:Hell, Robertson's jams only officially retired their golliwog mascot in 20-loving-02. I only learned these were a thing when the shitstorm about them being retired blew up - I obviously grew up with the wrong/right sort of fruit preserves. I did have a set of Noddy in Toyland books - a fresh, straight from the printers in 1988 set - which still had the Golliwogs as the villains. That must have been one of the last print runs before they changed them.
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Feb 21, 2022 17:46
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HopperUK posted:I 100% thought it was her house when I was a kid, the stereotype was nowhere in my knowledge then, early 80s UK. I thought it was amazing that this older black woman in America was doing so well. Nice big house in a good neighborhood that her cat and a mouse destroy all the time, she has a bull dog too. Wondered why she dressed like that tho, must have been the style at the time. 
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Feb 21, 2022 19:17
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marshmallow creep posted:I played that to the end because I ended up enjoying the gameplay, but I was constantly disappointed that every single joke was one I recognized from the show after I'd stopped watching it something like ten years prior. That was really weirdly specific fan-service. Did they stop making "jokes" after we stopped watching? 
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Feb 21, 2022 20:07
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I was curious about the Mammy Two-Shoes thing since I definitely remembered her from the shorts as a kid but not anything specifically "bad", turns out there were multiple redubbings besides just the original stereotypical one and the Irish one. I think the starkest change though is the short where they apparently just replace her character wholesale in one version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jNuhH_xvk
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Feb 21, 2022 20:48
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Push El Burrito posted:Isn't that guy actually a white dude pretending to be Chinese? The gently caress? I haven't watched the show in a very long time, but that just makes it worse. the_steve posted:I don't think he's pretending. Ah, so it's Matt Stone and Trey Parker making fun of Asians and mental illness. But ironically.
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Feb 21, 2022 23:23
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This line from King's Quest 5 aged poorly.
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Feb 22, 2022 01:29
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Jackie Chan Adventures fuckin' ruled.
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Feb 22, 2022 01:50
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DoomLazer posted:This line from King's Quest 5 aged poorly. that just kinda goes without saying, KQ5 doesn't seem to be remembered fondly compared to other entries in the series, especially 6
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Feb 22, 2022 01:53
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BaldDwarfOnPCP posted:That was really weirdly specific fan-service. Did they stop making "jokes" after we stopped watching? They teamed up with squeaky-clean Ubisoft to do a sequel with more moderns references.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:24
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DoomLazer posted:This line from King's Quest 5 aged poorly. Listen to the first 14 seconds of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRbY_MyKuVY
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Feb 22, 2022 02:38
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Oh Dumbo. I watched that movie a ton as a kid. I had no idea that the crows were racist because, to 5 year old me, other than his mom, and Timothy, only the crows were nice to Dumbo. They sang a song for him that was a little jokey but not mean, they helped him, they gave him the magic feather! They didn't call him names, like the other elephants, or treat him horribly, like the humans. So to kid me, the message of Dumbo was, just because someone looks like you, doesn't mean they'll be nice to you, and people who don't look like you, might be the nicest people ever. Now fast forward and realizing the main crow was named loving Jim Crow. Wow. I never liked Disney Peter Pan growing up, so the racist depiction of the natives just made me irritated more overall (mostly because none of the boys cared Wendy had to do chores while they played) but drat. Imagine how Pocahontas would have looked if made in that era.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:59
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Cowslips Warren posted:Oh Dumbo. Yeah, the crows are cool characters in themselves, at least. But oh boy the roustabout song at the start! That's just indefensible on every level.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:01
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I'm positive I had this as a child. Song of the South book and tape It was originally released in 1977 apparently, but I was born a few years later. It would have been maybe 1984-1987ish that somebody bought this for me. I'm disturbed to remember I had this. RC and Moon Pie has a new favorite as of 03:30 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 03:28
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In the late 80s/early 90s I had a Disney singalong tape with clips from various movies and I'm pretty sure that they used some footage from Song of the South.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:31
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Calaveron posted:Listen to the first 14 seconds of this. boy do I ever not want to click that link to destroy every fond Darkseed memory at once
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Feb 22, 2022 03:42
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Douche Wolf 89 posted:boy do I ever not want to click that link to destroy every fond Darkseed memory at once You will be pleasantly surprised
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Feb 22, 2022 03:43
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muscles like this! posted:In the late 80s/early 90s I had a Disney singalong tape with clips from various movies and I'm pretty sure that they used some footage from Song of the South. Yeah, we had a few Disney singalongs when I was a kid and they definitely had Zip-a-dee-doo-da with some very selective footage from the movie.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:57
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RC and Moon Pie posted:I'm positive I had this as a child. This hasn't aged poorly, but seeing that cassette reminded me of a VHS that we had ("Stories of the Black Tradition") and I remember really enjoying this story about Anansi that involves the gum doll. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLJ7PmeIBs8 It also had this amazing James Earl Jones narrated story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd2jbnRqUo This isn't super relevant, I just saw a chance to share some animations/stories I really loved.
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Feb 22, 2022 04:03
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RC and Moon Pie posted:I'm positive I had this as a child. Oh yeah, totally had that. I learned how to read from those books and tapes. In media that aged...questionably? I also had Mickey Mouse Disco, which has a disco remix of Zip A Dee Doo Dah. I'm afraid to listen to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse_Disco I also ended up with a book of African folk tales and children stories, some of which had a lot in common with the Disney book-on-tape story, so it just seemed (accurately, I guess?) like the Brer Rabbit tales were simply fairy tales from a culture I didn't know. The wildest set of weird racist merch I saw in the wild was at an estate sale in Laurel Canyon. The person who'd lived there had a bunch of collections, like vintage clothes, camera parts, and antiques. About a 6x6 foot section of a kitchen counter was the Golliwog Containment Zone. There had to have been over a hundred small to medium sized figures. I wasn't the only one who walked into the kitchen and immediately said, "What the gently caress?"
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Feb 22, 2022 04:06
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Waste of Breath posted:This hasn't aged poorly, but seeing that cassette reminded me of a VHS that we had ("Stories of the Black Tradition") and I remember really enjoying this story about Anansi that involves the gum doll. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLJ7PmeIBs8 Anansi stories are the best. Dude stole a tiger's balls!
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Feb 22, 2022 04:09
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RC and Moon Pie posted:I'm positive I had this as a child. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I had this. All I remember of anything surrounding any of this was being somehow totally disgusted by the tar baby in maybe a body horror kind of way. I was too young to be aware of any of the other connotations around the rest of it.
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Feb 22, 2022 04:13
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Brawnfire posted:Anansi stories are the best. Hell yeah, he's a top tier trickster. It's a shame the only mainstream invocation of him has been in American Gods, compared to the exposure Loki and Maui got.
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Feb 22, 2022 04:22
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:I also ended up with a book of African folk tales and children stories, some of which had a lot in common with the Disney book-on-tape story, so it just seemed (accurately, I guess?) like the Brer Rabbit tales were simply fairy tales from a culture I didn't know. the Brer Rabbit stuff comes from a guy named joel harris, who was a journalist and newspaperman from atlanta in the reconstruction era. among his writings were folklore based fiction, mostly collected from his time working on actual plantations with enslaved people in his youth (as a printer's apprentice, not as an overseer or someone who manages the enslaved people on the plantation). while he was living at the plantation as a teenager, he tended to socialize more with the enslaved people than the other residents of the plantation, as harris himself was fairly poor, a literal child, and of low social status. later in life, he synthesized the stories the enslaved storytellers shared as well as their mannerisms and dialect for a white audience. these stories were rewritten in the late 19th century, when things like the minstrel tradition were enormously popular, and harris' publications fit into that aesthetic presentation of black voices for a white audience the funny thing is, for the time he was trying to advocate on behalf of african american folk culture and racial reconciliation! harris and other white writers of his generation, largely journalists, were the progressives of their day in preaching racial tolerance. it is all horribly dated and offensive by our standards in how african americans are portrayed in manner and speech, but this was seen at the time as being authentic and respectful. the fatal flaw of song of the south is that out of respect for the source material it transposes these 1890s depictions of a black storyteller into a film released in the mid 1940s... depictions already decades out of date when it was released to theaters
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Feb 22, 2022 04:44
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Spazzle posted:Yeah, I'm pretty sure I had this. All I remember of anything surrounding any of this was being somehow totally disgusted by the tar baby in maybe a body horror kind of way. I was too young to be aware of any of the other connotations around the rest of it. So I've been casually scrolling past this chat cause I've never seen the movie, but the phrase "Tar baby body horror" just knocked an old scab off of some memories. I did see it. I remember the room, which places it at my kindergarten, and then it all came flooding back. I do not care for it. No. No I do not. (Also, I'm still not positive what I saw was from Song, but I'll die clean before I die with the phrase Tar Baby in my google search history.)
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Feb 22, 2022 05:32
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muscles like this! posted:In the late 80s/early 90s I had a Disney singalong tape with clips from various movies and I'm pretty sure that they used some footage from Song of the South. My brother and I had a 80s era turntable that played https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTGVP9fJzp0 Anyways, gently caress Copper
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Feb 22, 2022 06:54
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the holy poopacy posted:Yeah, we had a few Disney singalongs when I was a kid and they definitely had Zip-a-dee-doo-da with some very selective footage from the movie. I remember seeing an ad for some kind of TV special with actors from Playschool (Australian kids TV show, not sure if there's international equivalents) that used that song. Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the Brer Rabbit stuff comes from a guy named joel harris, who was a journalist and newspaperman from atlanta in the reconstruction era. among his writings were folklore based fiction, mostly collected from his time working on actual plantations with enslaved people in his youth (as a printer's apprentice, not as an overseer or someone who manages the enslaved people on the plantation). while he was living at the plantation as a teenager, he tended to socialize more with the enslaved people than the other residents of the plantation, as harris himself was fairly poor, a literal child, and of low social status. later in life, he synthesized the stories the enslaved storytellers shared as well as their mannerisms and dialect for a white audience. these stories were rewritten in the late 19th century, when things like the minstrel tradition were enormously popular, and harris' publications fit into that aesthetic presentation of black voices for a white audience I'm not surprised- from what I've read on the history of minstrel shows and even the Jim Crow character himself, there was unfortunately an active effort to co-opt and neuter black culture and expression, even genuine attempts to preach tolerance, and turn it into pro-slavery, racist mockery both before and after emancipation.
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Feb 22, 2022 07:57
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BaldDwarfOnPCP posted:Anyways, gently caress Copper Ugh, THANK YOU. That dog was a disloyal, easily radicalized douche.
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Feb 22, 2022 17:45
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Brawnfire posted:Anansi stories are the best. A tiger? In Africa?
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Feb 22, 2022 23:08
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Groke posted:A tiger? In Africa? yes, that's the most unrealistic part about a spider man stealing a magical tiger's balls
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Feb 22, 2022 23:21
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Groke posted:A tiger? In Africa? Yeah, they have them in Kenya.
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Feb 22, 2022 23:25
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Elissimpark posted:Yeah, they have them in Kenya. Forget Norway.
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Feb 22, 2022 23:25
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Groke posted:A tiger? In Africa?
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Feb 22, 2022 23:32
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Groke posted:A tiger? In Africa? "Tiger" is used here in a colloquial way to refer in general to non-lion big cats
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Feb 22, 2022 23:32
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:Forget Norway. More like Snore-way. Terrible Opinions posted:The stories were obviously not originally in English. English does not have a good generic word for large predatory cat to use as a magical creature's name. I noticed this in translations of Borges. Jaguars, panthers, leopards - all tigers.
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Feb 22, 2022 23:37
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I'm pretty sure it's a monty python reference.
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Feb 23, 2022 01:20
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Waste of Breath posted:Hell yeah, he's a top tier trickster. It's a shame the only mainstream invocation of him has been in American Gods, compared to the exposure Loki and Maui got. I swear I remember reading a thing about them wanting to do an Anansi Boys adaption and going "but could the main characters be white?" and Neil just putting a firm veto on that whole thing
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Feb 23, 2022 04:53
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