READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Thread moderation update :siren:

Having caught up earlier in the day with 15 pages of posts made overnight, I must regretfully note that a lot of it was a tedious discussion centred on NATO, c.f. �Being boring� rule of D&D. This is not an individual indictment of any specific poster. Similarly, I don't intend to go back and gas everyone who mentioned NATO between 6am and 11am Latvia time, since we have had many new faces here in the last 24 hours, and their good faith participation in the thread is valuable. Instead, I'd like to give some advice over the types of conversations concerning NATO (in itself or on behalf of the U.S.) that have �already been rehashed multiple times, arguably ad nauseam:

NATO should have been dissolved when the USSR fell, and its continued existence is an act of Western aggression towards Russia. This includes the discussion on USSR-Russia succession.
NATO is not a defensive alliance. This includes multiple discussions on every armed conflict US has been involved in since 1990.
NATO did promise Russia to not enlarge eastwards. This includes discussion on whether if promise was binding or not, the kind of guarantees it bore, whether if it was ever offered or eventually broken, etcetera.
NATO did mistreat Russia during NATO-Russia accession talks. This includes discussion on whether if Russia as a member was realistic, or whether if NATO was to be restructured, or whether if Russian got baited into shock therapy or otherwise treated as lesser while moving these friendship discussions.
NATO did intentionally expand eastwards, as a long con attack on Russia. This includes both the fact of new members in general, and more granular discussion of each of the enlargement waves.
NATO's 2008 motions towards Ukraine and Georgia were an act of� aggression towards Russia. This includes whether if the 2 countries were interested, or were intentionally played by NATO like chess pieces.
NATO is the organizer of �colour revolutions� in countries neighbouring Russia. This especially includes foreign involvement in the 2014 revolution in Ukraine.
NATO improving its working relationship with Ukraine post-2014 is an act of aggression towards Russia. This includes discussions on if Ukraine wants a membership, if it can get a membership due to veto, and if the West is playing it like a chess piece for its own goals.

While I wish that people continuing these conversations would do their due diligence to review what has been already said previously, that's unrealistic. Consequently, I'd just like to ask people posting about NATO, which isn't the primary focus of the thread, to ask themselves 2 questions:

Is it likely that I am bringing a new viewpoint into the discussion, that will be found interesting by the majority of readers?
Have I clearly stated why I'm bringing NATO up, and what are the conclusions or prescriptions that stem out of what I'm saying? This especially applies to �Russian invasion a bad act, but� posts.

Conversations about NATO may continue, but for the duration of elevated posting volume, the boring rule will be more likely to be enforced, and by people who have been following EE politics for months, if not years. Posts careless about the 2nd point may simply be treated as threadshitting, to manage moderation workload and thread readability.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:23

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# ? May 13, 2024 01:46

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Flagellum posted:

https://pravdaurfo.ru/polnotekst/36...-goskontraktov/

This is a russian article from last year that covers some of that tank factory embezzlement that I mentioned earlier. It gives you some background on how today's russian military industrial complex works. You can bet the government money for this factory probably turned into a nice apartmentment building in London etc. Google translate works ok with it.

Is it particualry unusual for military procurement to be hilariously bad? A lot of US military equipment as I understand it is basically maintained by scrapping half of the total fleet for spares, and the tanks have just had progressive piles of poo poo slapped on them for the last 30-40 years.

This is, as far as I know, a normal state of affairs for a former cold war superpower that once built huge amounts of military equipment but since the cold war has not felt it productive to engage in the same amount of arms production, and thus mostly can afford to maintain an army much bigger than anyone else purely off of old kit.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Feb 24, 2022

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:23

Aipsh: Feb 17, 2006; GLUPP SHITTO FAN CLUB PRESIDENT

MrYenko posted:

Banning Aeroflot from landing in the UK, or banning Aeroflot from UK airspace?

It's just landing I think

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:24

mrfart: May 26, 2004; Dear diary, today I
became a captain.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

We are in STALKER/call of duty territory now.

Didn't think Chernobyl was gonna be renewed for a second season.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:24

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1496879395516170255?s=20&t=lwbLjlceQBFbNH9iMsElAw

It's a weird feeling thinking Boris is doing something right.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:24

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Aipsh posted:

It's just landing I think

Cowards.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:24

selec: Sep 6, 2003

BoldFace posted:

Just so that we're clear. Letting Russia have Ukraine = on the table. Swift = off the table.

You don�t, unless aaaaaabsolutely necessary, gently caress around with the money. Cutting Russia off from Swift would be a way to get a much better read on how much oligarch money is actually propping up the British economy (I suspect a lot more than anyone in the know is comfortable with) and possibly gently caress up a lot of that arrangement, and torpedo a major source of funding and dirty tricks work for the Tories.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:24

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

TulliusCicero posted:

Can't go too hard and piss off your own donors right Boris?

currently the only euro with anything more severe or wide-reaching than mildly inconveniencing 3 minor oligarchs so

projecthalaxy posted:

[As if bending lips around unfamilair shapes]

Thanks... Boris? Great job?

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:25

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1496879395516170255?s=20&t=lwbLjlceQBFbNH9iMsElAw

It's a weird feeling thinking Boris is doing something right.

We got lucky that assclown is up to his neck in scandals so he is overperforming

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:25

Chieves: Sep 20, 2010

Wow, a ban on SWIFT would at least settle the Android vs iPhone debate for good.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:26

Big Slammu: May 31, 2010; JAWSOMEEE

Dapper_Swindler posted:

that seems goodish?

Abramovich needs to be sanctioned. It would be great if we could actually make the oligarchs with deep tentacles/roots in the West actually have to sit in the stench of the fascist country their buddy Putin has created and which they derive their money/power from to allow themselves to galavant around the western world while their actual countrymen suffer immensely.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:26

selec: Sep 6, 2003

fatherboxx posted:

We got lucky that assclown is up to his neck in scandals so he is overperforming

Holy poo poo this would really be something to see.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:27

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

MrYenko posted:

Cowards.

not sure but i think its a violation of international law to try to control airspace like that for civilian or commercial aircraft. its technically an international area.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:27

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Young Freud posted:

There was also this salient point underneath the tweet about the two conscripts...
https://twitter.com/JillofAllTrad14/status/1496864128501227523?s=20&t=Mg9hyQttsVQqhphZ4_hPUQ

MOD NOTE: spoilered for POWs

And a national COVID vaccination rate under 50% with a so-so vaccine.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:27

Pook Good Mook: Aug 6, 2013; ENFORCE THE UNITED STATES DRESS CODE AT ALL COSTS!

This message paid for by the Men's Wearhouse& Jos A Bank Lobbying Group

The problem the cowardly Euros are going to face is that if they don't cut off Russia from SWIFT, it's going to be the thing that Zelensky says in every address or press release and he's going to make sure people know who's to blame.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:27

projecthalaxy: Dec 27, 2008; Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son

Chieves posted:

Wow, a ban on SWIFT would at least settle the Android vs iPhone debate for good.

Oh soeaking of that where are we on the "fbi apcs outside Zuck's house making him turn off Facebook.ru" thing that was being thrown around

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:27

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

OwlFancier posted:

Is it particualry unusual for military procurement to be hilariously bad? A lot of US military equipment as I understand it is basically maintained by scrapping half of the total fleet for spares, and the tanks have just had progressive piles of poo poo slapped on them for the last 30-40 years.

Military procurement for every single military on the planet is a cesspool of corruption and inefficiency. It's merely a matter of degree.

It's sort of built in, since procurement is an labyrinth of entrenched interests and careers built on championing a particular weapons system regardless if it sucks.

A good non-military parallel might be the Space Shuttle: A really cool idea that was actually pretty bad in practice and persisted through momentum, sunk costs, and noone being willing to face the heat for closing a factory.

TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Feb 24, 2022

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:28

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

CommieGIR posted:

Hey guys, please try to also spoiler pictures of POWs as technically you are not supposed to share those photos

Technically it doesn't apply to us as civilians. It's the duty of Ukrainian defense forces to protect the POW's, not ours.

Morally I don't think it matters either, the pictures are already spread in Twitter so it's not like this thread could do anything to protect their identities or anything.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:29

Just Another Lurker: May 1, 2009

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1496879395516170255?s=20&t=lwbLjlceQBFbNH9iMsElAw

It's a weird feeling thinking Boris is doing something right.

Until he actually does it i would never believe what Boris says, he does NOT LIKE to commit to anything until he has absolutely no choice.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:29

AveMachina: Aug 30, 2008; God knows what COVIDs you people have

Jiro posted:

What like he wasn't tough enough on Putin when Trump was President or something? I'm in Texas so it will be interesting to see how Abbot and his filth make statements about this in the next few days and week. Same with the candidates up for reelection this year.

He does his best to out-terrible himself at every turn, so this is a tasty new distraction from that thing about snatching up trans kids

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:29

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Nenonen posted:

Technically it doesn't apply to us as civilians. It's the duty of Ukrainian defense forces to protect the POW's, not ours.

Morally I don't think it matters either, the pictures are already spread in Twitter so it's not like this thread could do anything to protect their identities or anything.

True, but I'd rather we do our due diligence in case someone is concerned about us openly sharing the images.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:30

Flagellum: Dec 23, 2011; spurdo av master race so what

OwlFancier posted:

Is it particualry unusual for military procurement to be hilariously bad? A lot of US military equipment as I understand it is basically maintained by scrapping half of the total fleet for spares, and the tanks have just had progressive piles of poo poo slapped on them for the last 30-40 years.

This is, as far as I know, a normal state of affairs for a former cold war superpower that once built huge amounts of military equipment but since the cold war has not felt it productive to engage in the same amount of arms production, and thus mostly can afford to maintain an army much bigger than anyone else purely off of old kit.

That is also how russia is building 'new' T-72B3 and T-80BVM tanks. They have thousands of T-72B and T-80B in their storage from the 80s, and they reuse parts that are in ok condition and scrap the rest.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:30

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

not sure but i think its a violation of international law to try to control airspace like that for civilian or commercial aircraft. its technically an international area.

I believe the Chicago Convention establishes the airspace over a country to be its exclusive sovereign territory.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:30

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Nenonen posted:

Technically it doesn't apply to us as civilians. It's the duty of Ukrainian defense forces to protect the POW's, not ours.

Morally I don't think it matters either, the pictures are already spread in Twitter so it's not like this thread could do anything to protect their identities or anything.

posters who violate the geneva convention should be probated and violating the geneva convention should be the reason

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:31

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1496886660440932352?s=20&t=xNz1hlFux6ynMrsC3oCq9Q

Cowards.

Jumping Jacked Cash is a GAS GAS GAS.

(Germany needs Russia Natural Gas)

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:32

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1496900468441858063?s=20&t=bWcB4oslObmaJwQPLRh_2w

Yeah, they weren't going to hold off on atrocities for long after meeting resistance.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:32

projecthalaxy: Dec 27, 2008; Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

posters who violate the geneva convention should be probated and violating the geneva convention should be the reason

Its like when Stardew Valley had to put in their patch notes that the game no longer violated the Geneva Conventions (by putting a Red Cross on a white backdrop without providing aid to soldiers)

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:33

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1496900468441858063?s=20&t=bWcB4oslObmaJwQPLRh_2w

Yeah, they weren't going to hold off on atrocities for long after meeting resistance.

Russia does love bombing Hospitals, unfortunately.

So much so that in Syria they stopped telling the UN where their hospitals were because every time they did, Russia showed up and bombed em.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:33

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

Military procurement for every single military on the planet is a cesspool of corruption and inefficiency. It's merely a matter of degree.

It's sort of built in, since procurement is an labyrinth of entrenched interests and careers built on championing a particular weapons system regardless if it sucks.

A good non-military parallel might be the Space Shuttle: A really cool idea that was actually pretty bad in practice and persisted through momentum, sunk costs, and noone being willing to face the heat for closing a factory.

There is a difference between inefficiency and outright embezzlement, though. To bring up another space example: a bunch of Russian rockets blew up because someone substituted the metals they were supposed to be using or the engines with cheaper alternatives that, well, weren't up to the demand of being part of rocket engines --- and likely pocketed the difference.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:34

the popes toes: Oct 10, 2004

OwlFancier posted:

Speaking as someone without finances I would not really be sad if the global financial order was a casualty in the war.

UBS, the largest private investment bank, just downgraded Russian bonds to zero. And below is the Russian market close. The Russian financial order already faces ruin.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:34

isaboo: Nov 11, 2002; Muay Buok
ขอให้โชคดี

How might Putin react if the SWIFT ban happens?

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:35

TulliusCicero: Jul 29, 2017

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1496900468441858063?s=20&t=bWcB4oslObmaJwQPLRh_2w

Yeah, they weren't going to hold off on atrocities for long after meeting resistance.

This is some loving actual Nazi poo poo. Guess they aren't making much land progress so they are going to bomb the populace till they submit? Went so well for Hitler...

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:35

Valtonen: May 13, 2014; Tanks still suck but you don't gotta hand it to the Axis either.

The problem is that unless the sanctions really get heavy this drop is only temporary- its panic of What might happen. If war goes on for a week and no new real bigboy sanctiols drop that curve jumps back up.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:36

selec: Sep 6, 2003

isaboo posted:

How might Putin react if the SWIFT ban happens?

I think we�d see a lot of retributive cyber attacks probably focused around cloud infrastructure, which would have economic effects as the retribution.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:37

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

isaboo posted:

How might Putin react if the SWIFT ban happens?

Cyberattacks/increase in ransomware attacks probably. His soldiers are kind of occupied rn

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:37

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

isaboo posted:

How might Putin react if the SWIFT ban happens?

Attack Poland? No.

But I expect the Internet stuff to get hosed from Cyber Attacks.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:37

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

Shes Not Impressed posted:

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1496879395516170255?s=20&t=lwbLjlceQBFbNH9iMsElAw

It's a weird feeling thinking Boris is doing something right.

Johnson spent much of last month fending off a no confidence vote due to his COVID party scandal, so I'm sure he's eager to get in front of some fresh news.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:37

Pook Good Mook: Aug 6, 2013; ENFORCE THE UNITED STATES DRESS CODE AT ALL COSTS!

This message paid for by the Men's Wearhouse& Jos A Bank Lobbying Group

Kaal posted:

Johnson spent much of last month fending off a no confidence vote due to his COVID party scandal, so I'm sure he's eager to get in front of some fresh news.

He's also probably betting that Italy or Germany will kill the SWIFT ban and give him political cover.

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:38

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

fatherboxx posted:

We got lucky that assclown is up to his neck in scandals so he is overperforming

He's a liar of Trump-esque proportions and only cares about himself - as you say his main priority is using this situation to distract from the myriad of career-threatening scandals he finds himself in.

Nothing he says, or that anonymous sources claim he is trying to do, should be trusted. Its entirely possible this is just performative poo poo that he is unwilling to really do, but that he knows he can pretend to be trying to do to look tough, as Germany, Italy, etc, ultimately won't budge on SWIFT. The Tories did this poo poo all the time before Brexit - pretending to want to do something, and then blaming the EU for preventing them from doing it.

Don't give him any credit for anything until concrete and decisive action is taken by the UK (achieving consensus on SWIFT ban, seizing Oligarch accounts/properties). Which it almost certainly won't be.

Tigey fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Feb 24, 2022

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:39

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# ? May 13, 2024 01:46

i am a moron: Nov 12, 2020; "I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

selec posted:

I think we�d see a lot of retributive cyber attacks probably focused around cloud infrastructure, which would have economic effects as the retribution.

That�s really not what anyone should be worried about, the cloud still isn�t where banking mainframes or SCADA systems are located. �The cloud� is also way more secure and reactive than the bullshit people have to deployed to their own data centers

# ? Feb 24, 2022 18:39

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